The Cost of Our Hobby

[ruggedpeak]

Without wishing to sound too cynical, maybe Hornby, Bachmann et al are just making hay while the sun shines and will deal with what comes later, later.

 

That is my fear, take the fat salary and leave someone else to clear up the mess. Hope we're wrong on that.

 

I do think that Hornby have lost their way by trying to compete in, what you might call, the "premium" market. To use a furniture analogy, we'll always need the IKEAs of this world where you can buy cheap but customise, improve, and have fun. But there's still space in the market for others to come in with wonderful crafted pieces, which are beautiful and delicate.

 

You'd let a child jump around on an IKEA beanbag, but not on your mahogany antique regency chairs.

Agree 100%, the advantage will model rail is you can run the expensive model along side the cheaper basic one, allowing parent and child to say share a layout.

 

A good post tony i did enjoy reading...but IMHO your right about some things, and naive about others...

 

Remember your general rail enthusiast is stereotyped as having thick glasses, a coat and a flask, and socially unacceptable......think roy cropper from coronation street, anyone remember the anorak from toby anstice's broom cupboard on CBBC?

 

Will the hobby disappear no of course it wont....it will evolve...how well i expect the kit market will take off as it will be cheaper to build and motorise your own models and potentially achieve a better standard than RTR...

Just my opinions so not too precious of them! I don't think rail enthusiasts have so much of a problem any more, and if all else fails then point out that bus spotters are  worse!

 

Kits are great, but decent (not OTT) quality RTR is key to new entrants IMHO.

 

Haha! You'd be surprised how quickly peoples perception can be changed! I found this when I started building a layout at work... Everyone was laughing when there's was wiring and glueing and cutting... But as soon as they saw locomotives running around people suddenly changed their tune saying things like "that's awesome"! Awesome?! Would you believe it?! And they were talking about railway modelling!

 

Yes, maybe we have a slight image problem... But we can turn it around!

Yes! Hence the Gadget Show idea with the latest DCC Sound and lights and stuff. Done right it could transform the hobby. There are huge numbers out there who love tinkering with electronic gizmos (not me, hate 'em!) and who would be intrigued by the challenge of pushing the boundaries of DCC and related systems. And for whom spending hundreds on the latest electronic gizmo is not an issue. We need someone to actively market the hobby and all its attractions to current generations, which is through Digital. I'm not DCC advocate, still prefer 12v DC, but its where the world is at now.

 

And then back to the OP (!) the lack of differential between N and OO is due in part to volumes. Which in turn is the size of the market. Perhaps the question is how to boost N volumes without cannibalising OO sales. The attraction of N is its size. As DCC develops in N then perhaps this will appeal to those who are more interested in the DCC side of things and operations than ultra fine detail and correctness of the model. N allows more complex layouts and operations in the same space. Just a thought, but someone has to get it out there. A reasonable sized DCC N layout with lots of movement operated on a screen of some sort (iPad, laptop etc) as a demo?

I don't know how they are selling, but I like the Dapol packages such as the Arriva 67 with coaches and DVT. This to me is an ideal product to attract tinkerers in as they get a nice looking full train to play with. Bachmann train packs are similarly attractive and relevant.

 

Just my thoughts. I just think the industry is missing a trick and needs to look broader.

[t-b-g]

If Bachmann etc. can make more money by producing smaller batches of models and selling them at higher prices, then why should they do anything else?

 

They are not a charity or here to boost the hobby and nurture newbie modellers. They are here to make as much money as possible as quickly as possible.

 

Their accountants and shareholders/owners have no interest in producing brilliant models at rock bottom prices. The end of year balance sheet is what matters to them and it has always been the same. Mass producing models and having "dead" stock sitting around on model shop shelves for years is clearly no longer seen as a viable business model. The plan is now to produce a small batch that will sell out pretty much instantly (possibly direct to the customer, cutting out the trade discount that shops traditionally took from the manufacturers profit) with a view to discounting and selling off any that don't go straight away.

 

I am sure that the main manufacturers will continue to produce and sell stuff at the highest price and profit that they can possibly make. If that makes them more financially secure and more likely to continue in business, then is that really a bad thing? A few whinges from people who want high quality but cheaper models isn't going to change anything. If you don't think that the product is worth the price, don't buy it. Nobody is forcing anybody.

 

The whole world is changing and will continue to do so. The internet has had a huge impact on high street shopping and model shops are not exempt. Shelves full of locos and carriages are a thing of the past, apart from the ones that people don't want.

 

My total spend on RTR stuff has been on 4 locos in the last 20 years. If I hadn't had a bit of spare money about at the time, I wouldn't have spent anything at all as they are nice to have but in no way essential. In fact, they are all still in their boxes while the kit and scratchbuilt locos do the work on the layouts.

 

I prefer to make things for myself, often from kits bought second hand but otherwise from scratch. It is much more fun than opening boxes and far more rewarding. The models are probably not as good as modern RTR stuff but they are unique and personal to me.

 

I know that doesn't suit everybody but I can confirm that it is a very enjoyable way to follow the hobby at very low cost!

 

Tony

[RBAGE]

I doubt if anyone feels threatened, just amazed how conjecture fuels pointless arguments, often leading to a topic being locked.

 

Of course I can understand that there will always be questions raised about price increases and no one is arguing that discussion about the constituent parts is welcome, but you will never have all the facts to arrive at a sensible conclusion.  There are so many factors that will influence how pricing is set.  Some of those are quite simple like material costs and overheads, but others are more complex and often variable.  Foreign exchange rates and forward contracts, tooling ammortisation and depreciation of capital investment, levels of stock, debtors and payment terms all contribute to the equations on profitability and cash flow.

 

No problem with discussion per se.  Just base it on factual information rather than tabloid speculation.....

Lets face it, all of the subject on this site are, ultimately, pointless, but we still enjoy the exchanges.

We are all of us speaking from a position of lack of fact. None of us has all or even most of the information. As I said earlier, if e did have all the information the thread wouldn't exist.

[The Stationmaster]

Lets face it, all of the subject on this site are, ultimately, pointless, but we still enjoy the exchanges.

We are all of us speaking from a position of lack of fact. None of us has all or even most of the information. As I said earlier, if e did have all the information the thread wouldn't exist.

But the strange thing is that some commenting on here do know the facts - many of them are freely available on the internet, many of them have been quoted in the past on RMweb,  many of them are available if you talk to manufacturers or commissioners.  It is fairly easy to find out how much it costs to develop a model and to manufacture it.  You can also work out with similar ease approximately how much the retail price will be if you assume that the money to develop it was borrowed at a commercial rate and you also make an assumption about the number of models produced (ok - so you do have to presume certain things but the odd thing is that if you do the results tend to be remarkably near to what we actually have to pay for some of these models.

 

What we don't necessarily know is the extent of overhead costs in the larger companies and the way in which they are accounted and spread over product prices.  But we do know, in some cases, the extent of their borrowings and in the case of Kader the losses they have been incurring in model railway manufacture.

 

However as you remain convinced that there is immense profit in the business and are involved in manufacture you clearly have a commercial opportunity staring you in the face.  I would suggest you start in N gauge and then deliver a fully detailed loco which would sell well (in N gauge market terms that is) and obviously it will be considerably cheaper than the prices sought be Farish, Dapol, and the more recent entry to the N gauge market.  Let's say a Class 25 diesel - preserved examples exist so you can get it scanned to help with the production of the CAD - I would allow what seems to be the current industry average of about £110,000 - 120,000+ for development and possibly even production of at least the initial batch although I get the impression you could do it for much less from what you are saying?  How many will you make? - let's be realistic and say 1,000 (makes the maths easier) so to cover my development and production costs I need to price it at £100-120.  But I then need to add my premises and research overheads, transport and insurance costs, wastage (some models do get returned), distribution, and the cost of borrowing the money, but you are aware of all of that from your background I'm sure and can readily estimate a cost per model over a run of 1,000.

 

Now obviously the next 500 or 1,000 won't need to cover development although all the other costs will still be there so you will make a lot more by selling them at the same price.  Simple problem - is there actually a market for another 1,000?  Don't forget we're talking N gauge, not the much larger 00 market and have we picked the right thing in the first place.  And how are you going to finance your next model or are you going to be a one horse wonder with no after sales support?

 

I'm sorry to put it in this fashion but when you do and start seeing real numbers it isn't very difficult to work out why prices have got to where they are - the people making and commissioning model railway items are in business.  They need to pay mortgages - possibly the second one on the house they re-mortgaged to get them started - and put food on the table.  

 

In reality - and knowing many of the figures involved - I think we're actually doing rather well to see some prices where they are and not already a lot higher.  Don't forget the market has had a triple whammy on prices, big companies losing money, production costs in China rising steeply, and the disappearance of deep discounting as Hornby reduced its retail discount to 10% and Bachmann limited initial retail sales discounting to 15%.

[stovepipe]

This is quite an interesting link - a injection moulding tooling estimator. How comparable to the tools used to make models it is I couldn't say, but it does allow you to see some of the influencing factors.

[APOLLO]

Your little shopping list adds up to a bit over £200 - you saved about fifteen quid on what I paid for a Sentinel on launch but spent the rest on items that wouldn't interest me at any price.

 

In roughly the same period, I have bought the following items that I did want, a Bachmann 64xx, one coach, two horse boxes and a CCT.(all Hornby) - total price about £165. If the other coach on order had turned up I would still have spent a bit less than you.

 

You're happy the way you do it, I'm happy with the way I do it, but wanting the "good stuff" doesn't lead me to overspend. I already have plenty of locos so only buy more to fill perceived gaps to fill rather than buying random models just because they are cheap.

 

John  

 

There's method in my madness.

 

I model the Great Central / Great Northern / Midland lines around the Nottingham area, 1965 - 68 (approx.) era. Halls etc got to Nottingham Victoria virtually daily, A1's were not unknown either. The 2 Bil is a little out, but can be" dragged to & parked on" the scrapyard scene (blasphemy !!). In its latter years southern rebuilt / unrebuilt pacifics also visited the line albeit on specials.

 

The red Olton Hall will be repainted a scruffy un-named and un-numbered extremely weathered black, as will Tornado - just like the real thing.

 

I don't know why so few folk model the ex GC main line - the variety of motive power & stock was vast - Ex LMS / LNER / Southern every day.

 

Brit15

[Andy Y]

 

 

In reality - and knowing many of the figures involved - I think we're actually doing rather well to see some prices where they are and not already a lot higher.  Don't forget the market has had a triple whammy on prices, big companies losing money, production costs in China rising steeply, and the disappearance of deep discounting as Hornby reduced its retail discount to 10% and Bachmann limited initial retail sales discounting to 15%.

 

Good god Mike; you can't go around showing such levels of comprehension of the bigger picture and talking common sense like that, the conspiracy theorists will get really upset (nah, they won't they'll just think you, me and everyone else who tries to inject common sense has a big stack of brown envelopes being delivered daily). We're told inflation is 0% so why have my toy trains gone up 20%?

[TheSignalEngineer]

Not to be forgotten is the fact that we ultimately pay the bill in US Dollars. Five years ago One Dollar cost us around 50p, currently it it is running at about 68p, equivalent to a rise of about 35% on the imported component of the costs.

[Ravenser]

Its been said that one factor driving up British RTR prices is the price/return the manufacturers can achieve by selling a similar standard of model in other markets. By which is meant the US and Continental markets

 

I've no doubt at all that in the last 15-20 years the price of Continental HO has been in some degree prohibitive. All indications are that volume sales of Continental HO RTR , especially in the German market , declined by 20-25% in the years after 2000, and have never recovered. I'm sure that the very high price of Continental HO played a substantial part in that , allied to the substantial aging of the German population and the low birth rates in Italy and Spain, and an increasingly saturated second-hand market. It's obvious from anecdotal evidence that modellers on the Continent for at least a decade have been selling existing models to help fund new purchases, and that they frequently buy second hand rather than new. Its also clear that the pre-order business model in the US market means that if you need a specific model you will probably need to go to ebay.

 

 

While our RTR prices will no doubt rise to Continental levels in the next few years, there's an important qualification to make. The prices in the Continental HO market are set by the high cost European producers. However the many "Marklinists" and loud trumpeters of the superiority of diecast German 3 rail over nasty Chinese plastic mean that Hornby and Kadar's Continental brands  have to offer a significant price discount compared to the European made brands - they are the budget brands in that market (Hornby's reintroduction of Jouef was greeted on French forums with cries of "la retour de Jouef democratique") . So that - or between that and US prices -  is where our price level will ultimately settle.

 

With severe price resistance on the Continent and European inflation at around 0% , there's no scope for price increases there, so Hornby and Kadar will not be able to pass on their Chinese cost increases and margins on their continental HO brands will erode to British levels.

 

At the same time the manufacturers clearly need to mitigate costs . I don't think Hornby abandoned Design Clever - they've merely refined it. There's a striking lack of outside cylinder engines in their recent announcements - a plain black inside cylinder 0-6-0 is inherently cheaper to make than a fully lined out Pacific with Walschearts gear.

 

So I don't think there is any scope for increased detail levels or greater refinement in the next 10-15 years . Welcome to the age of the plain black inside cylinder tank engine. (E4, L&Y 2-4-2T, Coal tank, J50, IF...)

 

And there must come a point when the cost of new tooling rises to the level that makes it prohibitive  against existing tooling to a similar standard. At that point the likely cost of a new model becomes uncompetitive against something produced from the existing tool bank - and we get reintroductions rather than new tooling

 

The Continental HO market is already there - and the effect of the recent supply difficulties in delaying models has pushed us in that direction anyway. Bachmann's recent announcements have been quite modest. I think they'll stay that way, and the arms race in new tooling will end

 

We will probably see  prices settle at 20-25% below Continental HO levels (as set by Marklin, Roco/Fleischmann, LS Models and their peers) , and it will take some time to get there

 

The secondhand market will become ever more important, and there may be a modest revival of kits . I don't think this will be in loco kits, where kit prices will still be higher than RTR , even at Continental price levels. But wagon kits are now significantly cheaper than RTR wagons, and may well end up at less than half the RTR price. And coach kits are now reaching the point where a Comet kit is roughly the same price as new RTR. In 5 years time they may be significantly cheaper than RTR

[BodminJunction]

I don't think there is anything wrong with expecting good value for money. The other thing to bear in mind is that for the hobby to survive and thrive you need to attract new people into it.

 

I am 28 years old. I have attended Warley twice (2013 and 2014), Ally Pally once (2013), Doncaster (2013), Worthing (2013) and a few smaller shows and toy fairs. Often I seem to be by far the youngest adult of the people I see. I got lucky - I got into the hobby at the very tail end of the "Golden Era", so I got some very cheap models (brand new Bachmann Class 37 for £46 from a well known Liverpool shop for example), and I'm lucky to have amassed most of the stock I'll ever need. 

 

I'm not a man of limited means - I have a professional vocational degree and am voluntarily studying at university again and all being well I will be very well recompensed once I am fully qualified in my desired field and I have two rental properties too. However I would find it very hard indeed to explain to my wife why I want to spend £200 on a single loco or £50 on a wagon or coach. I spent less than £250 taking her to Edinburgh for Valentine's weekend including petrol from Coventry and food and accommodation whilst we were there! 

 

So I'm very happy that you have the means and the social circumstances to spend large sums on nice models - but it is off putting for new comers. I definitely would not have gotten into the hobby if a loco and rake was going to cost me £400 (Bachmann loco, plus 8  Mk1s/Mk2s or Hornby 2+7 HST etc). There are far more worthwhile things I could do with that money and I imagine that a lot of younger people feel the same way that I do.

 

I'm just very glad that I got in while the going was good, and hopefully some of things on my wishlist will end up in the bargain bin and I'll pick them up then. If not I have plenty of other things to be playing with, both choo choos and otherwise! 

Just about to order the new Hornby Class 43 in the Intercity Exec livery, might be lucky to get change from £400, the problem is Hornby don't run the items for long enough to buy them over the period of a few months, you have to buy the set in one go or you miss out, then have to pay silly prices on ebay etc etc etc

[dibber25]

Short circuit in the crystal ball department there I think.

 

Yes, I'm sure he does but does he know the whole picture regarding the subject of cost increases? I think not. And that is my point.

I consider myself to be a professional journalist and commentator and it is therefore my business to have as good a picture as possible of all aspects of the model railway industry. I'm sure I don't know the whole picture with regard to why locomotive A is more expensive than locomotive B. However, I do know and understand what is going on with Chinese manufacturing because I have heard it independently from manufacturers both in the UK and North America. I've also been involved at the commissioning end with Model Rail's limited editions and the Sentinel, and I have some peripheral involvement with the USA tank. Magazine editorial teams have numerous meetings and conversations with manufacturers over the course of a year and there are major issues for all of them in trying to keep costs down and sales up. Tailoring orders to closely match demand is one way to do this. Hobby shops need to have supplies of the staple items but the range of locomotives and stock is such that few can afford to have shelves laden with models that aren't selling. Having Hornby EMUs on sale at less than half price might be good for the customer, but either the shop or the manufacturer is likely making a loss on these, or a miniscule profit and neither of those is good long-term practice. Short runs which sell out quickly are preferable to having stock left that has to be shifted at a loss. But short runs mean some potential customers are disappointed and short runs also push the price up as costs have to be spread over fewer models. In order to avoid disappointment and still tailor runs closely to demand, some manufacturers are going for the pre-order system. This, of course, is not acceptable to those who insist on seeing before they buy. The manufacturers have a delicate balancing act to perform and pricing is just one aspect of a very complex business. No one wants to pay more for their models but it is inevitable and at the moment, steep price rises are unavoidable. Yes, there will be some serious discounts on stock which has been over-ordered and isn't moving - but remember, that is a bad sign, not a good one. It happened with Lima locomotives 20-odd years ago, and we all know what happened to Lima.

CHRIS LEIGH

[APOLLO]

What will be interesting to see is whether the likes of Hornby continue to have deeply discounted "sales" on it's website, like Black Friday and the recent "The engine shed" launching, with Railroad Halls and Tornado's at £42, 31's at £32. One off events or a regular thing I don't know. For me it was an opportunity to bag loco's that were justifiable but not really "needed".

 

As I type there are bargains on the Hornby "Last Chance" page. Nowt I currently want, but bargains they are for somebody.

 

Anyway, the market (that's you and me) will ultimately decide. There comes a price point (which is different for all) after which, quite simply, sales dry up and stock lies on shelves. I think new initiatives like crowd funding etc try to prevent this.

 

My philosophy is to get a bargain while you can, if I can justify / afford it.

 

Brit15

[sub39h]

Part of the confusion when it comes to price is that the big boys seem to be directly contradicting each other. Let me explain:

 

There was recently a bit of an uproar because the Bachmann Presflo had breached the £20 mark. One member took apart a Presflo and a Hornby Clam and said that they both had about 35 parts. The Clam has an RRP of £9.99. Therefore I think the Presflo is VERY overpriced.

 

I recently had the pleasure of picking up a cheap main range (i.e. not the RailRoad) Hornby Mk1 for less than £16 off eBay brand new. It was the last one in stock on Jadlam Racing's account. At that price, eBay, Hornby and most likely Jadlam have made a profit. And aside from a single toilet pipe and a small handle it is exactly the same as the Bachmann one to my eyes. The Bachmann one has a discounted price of nearly double what I paid for the Hornby Mk1. Even if you compare RRPs (£25 vs £39) there is a massive disparity - over 50% extra for a couple of tiny extra details? Therefore I think Bachmann's Mk1 is VERY overpriced. 

 

Now compare Hornby's diesels. Something like a Class 60 has an RRP of £160. A Bachmann 47 has an RRP of around £105. The Class 60 is therefore VERY overpriced imho (though it is a beautiful model and I'm glad I got my 3 for a lot less than current prices).  

 

The big boys are telling us what they can sell a wagon or coach or loco for and make a profit - and the other one is selling them at much higher prices. Something is not right here.

[coachmann]

Prices are what they are and no amount of hobbyist-logic will change that. In model railways, it is none of peoples business why prices are what they are............. Either they chose to pay or they dont. The plastic RTR manufacturers know what it costs them to produce things and they know what price to put them out at. I built a signal box kit this week costing £15.00. It took two days to build, paint and glaze. But first I looked at ready-to-plonk from Bachmann and Hornby while taking the view that it was worth £34.00 to me to buy one off the shelf and make a few alterations. Tuff luck for me there was nothing suitable. It is how I happen to view most things..........What is something worth to me?!

 

For all their logic, most RTR buyers haven't a clue what it must be like to build a free running loco chassis followed by a superstructure followed by painting & lining. Each and every RTR model produced over the past 15 years is a marvel and this is because mass-production these days is not the same as occurred in Triang-Hornby days when a one piece body shell was screwed to a monoblock chassis with no brake gear or any pretentions of reality. Todays models consist of a mirriad parts all hand assembled by people, not machines. I just wonder how many folk on here could do it................No I don't, cos' I know!  People dependant on RTR talking logically?  That'll be the day....

[jjb1970]

Hornby were the first company to start raising prices and they are also the only ones who have offered the market an alternative option in trying to apply their design clever concept. That was not going to mako  models cheaper but it was an attempt to control the rate of increase by replacing separately applied details with moulded ones, down grading mechanical drives and so on. The reaction to design clever was a disaster for Hornby, now some of the response was down to it being badly executed (although in my view it worked well on the 2-BIL) but part of it undoubtedly was that their target market for main range models voted that it would rather pay more for models of pre design clever quality and detail. Somebody else has posted that Hornby have not abandoned the idea but are just applying it more intelligently, that may very well be true and certainly you'd hope all the manufacturers considered ease of manufacture when designing tooling. For all that design clever was a disaster, in a sense Hornby did at least do the model market a service by testing market receptiveness to cost cutting. Although design clever was a failure on their main range models I do think that their activities in developing new Railroad tooling aimed at a lower price point have been remarkably successful in being able to offer good (if compromised and visibly less well finished) models at prices which significantly under cut those for a full on main range model. I really hope that Hornby continue to develop these new Railroad models as I do believe they fill a valuable niche.

 

One option there is now is to become a model supplier ourselves. The guys behind the N gauge Pendolino are showing it can be done by getting the Pendolino made and starting Revolution models. I have the highest of respect for them for having a vision and having the get up and go to make it happen. Given that the factories in China will manufacture for anybody then this is now an option for anybody with a strong drive and the will to make it happen.

[dibber25]

From what I remember of taking a Hornby Mk1 to bits (just recently) it has about half a dozen parts - in particular the chassis is more or less a single unit and the bogies are one-piece clip-fit items. It is a modern tooling, designed in the 'design-clever' era to reduce assembly costs to a minimum, specifically in order to undercut the price of other Mk1s. The Bachmann Mk1 is a much older tooling with far more separate parts designed in the days when assembly costs were not a major consideration. The two are not comparable.

Similarly, the Hornby 60 - does it not have working fans, opening doors and a wealth of detail in the see-through area? The Bachmann 47 does not, so again it is an unfair comparison. Also, different companies have different costs and different ways of allocating costs to individual projects. All of this gives the modeller choice - if you want the extra separate parts you buy the Bachmann Mk1. If want the cheaper price, you buy the Hornby - that's exactly why Hornby made them that way. I'd be far more worried if both manufacturers had their different Mk1s at the SAME price! Then, something would certainly not be right.

CHRIS LEIGH

[Andy Reichert]

I take the view that anyone who earns a good living, should not expect someone else to have to earn a poor living, by doing something for them, that they won't do for themselves.

 

Andy.

[jjb1970]

I take the view that anyone who earns a good living, should not expect someone else to have to earn a poor living, by doing something for them, that they won't do for themselves.

 

Andy.

 

It is always interesting when people complain about prices to ask the question what ort of wage or salary are they willing to work for. We sometimes see people object to the prices asked by pro-kit builders, painters or those offering repair services etc yet when you look at the time these people put into their work and the prices charged they're certainly never going to become rich out of their efforts.

[Dunsignalling]

We seem to have gone off at a tangent here as the original post was about the high cost of N gauge trains which are being sold for similar prices to 00 gauge trains. People have been moaning about N gauge prices since Graham Farish started production in Poole. The demand for N gauge items is much lower than the demand for 00 gauge items. Possibly one reason is the perceived value of an 00 gauge item like a Bachmann standard 5MT for £106.21 which is about four times the size as an N gauge 5MT for £124.95. Hattons is now selling the N gauge model for £79. People would expect to pay about 2/3 the amount for an N gauge model based on its size although the production costs are the same. Normally there is far less discounting in N gauge than in 00 gauge.

 

N gauge Graham Farish Mk1 coaches are usually about 2/3 the prices of Bachmann 00 gauge Mk1 coaches so perhaps the price of N gauge locomotives could come down as well. Or perhaps Bachmann are overcharging for their 00 gauge coaches given that they have stated that the production costs are the same as for N gauge models.

The reason for N being less popular than OO is simple and has nothing to do with price. For many of us, it's just too damn small!

 

John

[jjb1970]

I have a lot of Japanese N gauge, unlike the UK and other European markets N is the dominant scale in Japan yet it is not cheap in Japan either. Admittedly the models are exceptionally well made and detailed. That said Japanese HO is very expensive and it does support the idea that the price differential is primarily the result of relative market size.

[Dunsignalling]

There's method in my madness.

 

I model the Great Central / Great Northern / Midland lines around the Nottingham area, 1965 - 68 (approx.) era. Halls etc got to Nottingham Victoria virtually daily, A1's were not unknown either. The 2 Bil is a little out, but can be" dragged to & parked on" the scrapyard scene (blasphemy !!). In its latter years southern rebuilt / unrebuilt pacifics also visited the line albeit on specials.

 

The red Olton Hall will be repainted a scruffy un-named and un-numbered extremely weathered black, as will Tornado - just like the real thing.

 

I don't know why so few folk model the ex GC main line - the variety of motive power & stock was vast - Ex LMS / LNER / Southern every day.

 

Brit15

Point taken, but they'd certainly be random for me.

 

I have gone a bit mad today, but neither Bachmann or Hornby will benefit because everything I bought (except Southern Way #30) was second hand.

 

I went to Wimborne Show (very good, too) and came home with one Hornby KA 'Sir Gawain' (I've been after a good one for a while and this one's a cracker) , two Bachmann Bulleids and a Lima Siphon (for conversion into a WR Siphon ). 

 

John

[APOLLO]

I'm afraid I sometimes fall into the "I like that model and I can afford it so I'll buy it" brigade. I have several loco's and other stock quite unsuitable even for my layout, bought over many years. I view my collection as just that, a collection.

 

These days I'm more interested in running trains than fine detailing etc. I occasionally run my layout as diesels only, or a few early green diesels & steam etc. Sometimes though anything and everything that moves, goes, after all they were "born to run" !!

 

Still, it would be a boring hobby if we all followed the same paths. I'll never be a Larry Goddard or Chris Nevard, but I'm quite content with my layout & skills.

 

Brit15

[RBAGE]

I consider myself to be a professional journalist and commentator and it is therefore my business to have as good a picture as possible of all aspects of the model railway industry. I'm sure I don't know the whole picture with regard to why locomotive A is more expensive than locomotive B. However, I do know and understand what is going on with Chinese manufacturing because I have heard it independently from manufacturers both in the UK and North America. I've also been involved at the commissioning end with Model Rail's limited editions and the Sentinel, and I have some peripheral involvement with the USA tank. Magazine editorial teams have numerous meetings and conversations with manufacturers over the course of a year and there are major issues for all of them in trying to keep costs down and sales up. Tailoring orders to closely match demand is one way to do this. Hobby shops need to have supplies of the staple items but the range of locomotives and stock is such that few can afford to have shelves laden with models that aren't selling. Having Hornby EMUs on sale at less than half price might be good for the customer, but either the shop or the manufacturer is likely making a loss on these, or a miniscule profit and neither of those is good long-term practice. Short runs which sell out quickly are preferable to having stock left that has to be shifted at a loss. But short runs mean some potential customers are disappointed and short runs also push the price up as costs have to be spread over fewer models. In order to avoid disappointment and still tailor runs closely to demand, some manufacturers are going for the pre-order system. This, of course, is not acceptable to those who insist on seeing before they buy. The manufacturers have a delicate balancing act to perform and pricing is just one aspect of a very complex business. No one wants to pay more for their models but it is inevitable and at the moment, steep price rises are unavoidable. Yes, there will be some serious discounts on stock which has been over-ordered and isn't moving - but remember, that is a bad sign, not a good one. It happened with Lima locomotives 20-odd years ago, and we all know what happened to Lima.

CHRIS LEIGH

Are you suggesting that 2 bits of second hand information from 2 manufacturers means it's gospel or just journalism?

 

Is journalism just repeating what 2 people with vested interests say or does it require a certain amount of independent corroboration? 

 

I have been, shall we say, questioned about comment I've made on this thread without adequate factual foundation. Two different blokes told me sounds like it should get a response from certain quarters.

 

Anyway, I think your comment has reinforced what I've been say. Oh! And we shouldn't buy bargains cos they are bad for us.

 

I like to play devils advocate on a number of subjects but I think I should leave this one alone because the thought police will be watching.   

[Legend]

Part of the confusion when it comes to price is that the big boys seem to be directly contradicting each other. Let me explain:

 

There was recently a bit of an uproar because the Bachmann Presflo had breached the £20 mark. One member took apart a Presflo and a Hornby Clam and said that they both had about 35 parts. The Clam has an RRP of £9.99. Therefore I think the Presflo is VERY overpriced.

 

I recently had the pleasure of picking up a cheap main range (i.e. not the RailRoad) Hornby Mk1 for less than £16 off eBay brand new. It was the last one in stock on Jadlam Racing's account. At that price, eBay, Hornby and most likely Jadlam have made a profit. And aside from a single toilet pipe and a small handle it is exactly the same as the Bachmann one to my eyes. The Bachmann one has a discounted price of nearly double what I paid for the Hornby Mk1. Even if you compare RRPs (£25 vs £39) there is a massive disparity - over 50% extra for a couple of tiny extra details? Therefore I think Bachmann's Mk1 is VERY overpriced. 

 

Now compare Hornby's diesels. Something like a Class 60 has an RRP of £160. A Bachmann 47 has an RRP of around £105. The Class 60 is therefore VERY overpriced imho (though it is a beautiful model and I'm glad I got my 3 for a lot less than current prices).  

 

The big boys are telling us what they can sell a wagon or coach or loco for and make a profit - and the other one is selling them at much higher prices. Something is not right here.

Market pricing I suspect Sub ie charging the max they think product will sell at. The actual cost of making these goods is probably only a factor in pricing

[RBAGE]

^^^^

Do you live under a bridge and not like goats much by any chance?

Who's that tripping over my bridge.