steamers to the scrap yard

[sean hpw]

Hi all,

 

I have a question regarding this odd traffic.

 

First up, how were steamers taken to scrap yards? The only reference I found was an 8F being towed between two 20t brake vans by a class 14.

 

Secondly, were there any especial rules to these trains? Such as limits of numbers of locos, barrier wagons between locos and such likes?

 

Thanks in advance

 

Sean

[hornbyandbf3fan]

Hi all,

 

I have a question regarding this odd traffic.

 

First up, how were steamers taken to scrap yards? The only reference I found was an 8F being towed between two 20t brake vans by a class 14.

 

Secondly, were there any especial rules to these trains? Such as limits of numbers of locos, barrier wagons between locos and such likes?

 

Thanks in advance

 

Sean

As far as I know, they were towed by other locos

[richard i]

I'm sorry we do not talk about this very sensitive subject as it brings back to many strong emotions from kettle fans. Some things in a family are just never talked about.

[jamie92208]

There is a book that tells most of the very sad story but the general rule I that they were emptied of coal, then the coupling rods were removed and then they were towed in 3's or 4's to whichever scrapyard had bought them by tender. I think the boo is called Steam for Scrap but beware it is very emotive reading.

 

Jamie

[hornbyandbf3fan]

I'm sorry we do not talk about this very sensitive subject as it brings back to many strong emotions from kettle fans. Some things in a family are just never talked about.

Brings a tear to my eye

 

[sean hpw]

I know it is a very iffy subject to talk about, and for my personal preference it is a lot later than I generally model, but a client I am working for has a special interest in the period of '65-'69, so unfortunately I have to get to grip with this rather thorny subject, has he wants stock making up into that condition

 

I meant no offence or upset to anyone, and apologise if I caused any.

 

Sean

[br2975]

"Steam for Scrap" Volumes 1,2 & 3 by Nigel Trevenna, pub. by Atlantic would be a worthwhile read.

.

There were concentration points around the network to which condemned locos would be towed and then held until moving on to the scrapyards.

.

The movements would normally be advertised in advance in the relevant Weekly Traffic Notices.

.

Occasionally a yard would buy a loco of a class with a route restriction that forbade its movement to their yard e.g. the two Kings that were stored for years at Woodham Bros. barry Docks had initially been sold to a West Wales scrapyard but were prohibited from working west of Cardiff, and were diverted to Barry Docks (still possibly restricted, but overlooked due to the short distance involved?)

 

These places included Gloucester (Horton Road) MPD, Severn Tunnel Jct MPD and Shrewsbury which were staging points for locos destined for the South Wales scrapyards.

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Condemned locos would be towed singly, in two or threes sometimes with open wagons as spacers and a brake van bringing up the rear. 

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Normally a BR 'caretaker' or 'rider' would accompany the locos whilst being moved.

.

Such convoys could be steam or diesel hauled; in some cases they would be hauled by a withdrawn loco - the late Alan Jarvis photographed a withdrawn SR Mogul in steam at Cardiff East Dock shed having hauled a convoy destined for one of the South Wales yards.

.

Withdrawn ocos and stock were regulars through cardiff during the late 60s and early 70s - producing such sights as 2-Bil, 4-Cor, Cravens diesel hydraulic units, M.S.J & A electric units, London Transport stock and diesel Pullman sets.

.

Brian R

[jonny777]

I remember waiting for a late bus home from Sleaford (Lincs) in late 1964/early 1965 (I had probably been given detention and therefore missed the regular school bus).

 

Anyway it was after dark.  The buses left from outside the railway station and the area was relatively well lit.  I heard the level crossing gates close and thought "oh just another 2-car dmu" and decided not to take anymore notice.

 

Imagine my horror when between the gaps in the buildings I saw a WD clank past eastwards, towing three or four other members of the same class and I could see none of the numbers in that short time. I wasn't in the best of moods before that, and I was certainly in a foul one afterwards.

Edited April 9, 2015 by jonny777

[david.hill64]

Gloucester used to see withdrawn locos en-route to South Wales most weekends towards the end of steam. usually 3 or 4 locos at a time, often in the middle of a freight. Coupling rods removed but hot boxes were frequent and locos would end up in Horton Road (Salisbury is a good example https://www.flickr.com/photos/curly42/5610195071/)or in the freight sidings in the triangle between the Midland, Western and Avoiding lines.

 

Edit for typos

Edited April 9, 2015 by david.hill64

[hornbyandbf3fan]

I meant no offence or upset to anyone, and apologise if I caused any.

Sean

I'm just joking, I doubt anyone will have taken any offence from you asking

[jamie92208]

I know it is a very iffy subject to talk about, and for my personal preference it is a lot later than I generally model, but a client I am working for has a special interest in the period of '65-'69, so unfortunately I have to get to grip with this rather thorny subject, has he wants stock making up into that condition

 

I meant no offence or upset to anyone, and apologise if I caused any.

 

Sean

Hi Sean,   no offence whatever has been taken.   My remarks were somewhat tongue in cheek.  I watched the 15 guinea special and thus saw steam to the very end from our kitchen window and gave up trainspotting for a whole 2 years I was so heartbroken (aged 15).   However the whole subject of the death of steam is a fascinating one.   The book that I mentioned, which was reissued as one volume by IIRC Atlantic publishing, actually leaves me wet eyed when I read some of the text and see those magnificent beasts being thrown away when there was so much life still in them.  My wife just says that I'm just a sentimental old fool.

 

However it is a fascinating topic and one well worth recording and modelling correctly.   Many of the locos had pictures/slogans chalked on them.  Crying eyes on the smokeboxes were one that comes to mind.

 

As mentioned in a previous topic in this section I was always intrigued by which was the last BR main line steam loco to move under it's own power.  I think it was 45110 going to the scrap line at Lostock Hall on Monday 12th August 1968.   The other was when the last locos were scrapped.   Apart from Barry many lasted into early 1969 as there was so much pressure on the scrapyards.

 

Good luck with you model and feel free to keep asking the questions.

 

Jamie

 

PS.   On.e freind of mine with a similar sense of humour did a diorama with a large Thomas model in a scrapyard Under the model was the following :-

 

Hello, I'm Thomas.

 

'  Hello Thomas I'm Gertie the gas axe'

 

Oh XXXX replied Thomas.

Edited April 9, 2015 by jamie92208

[jonny777]

I seem to remember reading that Oliver Cromwell ran under its own steam to Norfolk after the official end of BR steam. I think the journey was made overnight so that as few people as possible saw it.

[jamie92208]

I seem to remember reading that Oliver Cromwell ran under its own steam to Norfolk after the official end of BR steam. I think the journey was made overnight so that as few people as possible saw it.

IIRC it followed the 15 guinea special south down the S & C not far behind it but I didn't see it as we were already driving back towards Sedbergh from Birkett Tunnel.  (Having seen all the banking fires alongside Wild Boar fell started by the two black 5's that were going all out up Aisgill.)

 

Jamie

Edited April 9, 2015 by jamie92208

[luckymucklebackit]

I remember seeing the last couple of locomotives going to Campbells yard in Airdrie, it was early in November 1968 and they were at the end of a train of about 30 12T mineral wagons going to the yard to collect the cut up steel, I saw the first train coming slowly up the hill through Coatdyke station and couldn't work out what was between the last wagon and the brake van until it got closer and it was 75019, after that I paid close attention to the end of the train and saw 75020 and 75009 following the same pattern.  Campbells, despite cutting over 200 locomotives was very small, and Whifflet yard in Coatbridge was used as the dump for locomotives being scrapped there, so the big convoys came into Whifflet and the locos were then tripped in ones or twos to the scrapyard.  The loco would have been shunted onto the front of the train at Whifflet, but because the trip involved a reversal at Sunnyside Junction the loco was at the back of the train between Sunnyside and Clarkston.  Timing was crucial as the line had a 15min passenger service interval, so it was timed to leave Sunnyside right behind a passenger service in order not to delay the next one.

 

Jim

[RFS]

Like this, for example.  Scrap locos being taken away from Weymouth - http://www.davidheyscollection.com/userimages/00001-k-robertson-last-trip-2.jpg

 

This thread has more photos of the same train - http://www.davidheyscollection.com/page30.htm

[The Stationmaster]

Basically they were treated in accordance with the Regulations and mechanical Instructions for moving dead engines which meant the connecting rods were taken down (and often the coupling rods too) - the important thing being to prevent the pistons from moving although I'm not sure to what extent any inside valve gear was taken down although again the imperative would be to stop the pistons moving.  The reason for this was related to lubrication - or rather lack thereof - and is effectively the opposite of moving an engine in light steam, which is done to keep the lubrication operative and avoid taking down the rods/motion.

 

Usually - as already posted - engines tended to be moved in groups  as a train of dead engines unlike the normal practice of moving a dead engine to works in a freight train.  the reason for moving them in groups was that generally as engines were placed in store or withdrawn they tended to be concentrated at certain locations and subsequently moved in groups to either final storage sites or scrap merchants who had sufficient siding space to accept considerable numbers of engines.

[Pacific231G]

I know it is a very iffy subject to talk about, and for my personal preference it is a lot later than I generally model, but a client I am working for has a special interest in the period of '65-'69, so unfortunately I have to get to grip with this rather thorny subject, has he wants stock making up into that condition

 

I meant no offence or upset to anyone, and apologise if I caused any.

 

Sean

 

Our school railway society trips in the early to mid 1960s included a number of sheds with "scrap lines". These excited the loco-spotters who could mark of lots of numbers at once but seemed very sad to me and I was always keener to look for locos in steam. The biggest single lot of locos awaiting scrap that I remember was at Darlington and included some very unusual types that I think had been withdrawn for some time.

 

My recollection is that most of the steam locos on the various scrap lines marked as COND and/or with a cross in a circle had already had their rods removed. There were a few locos marked as reserved for some preservation group or other but not many.

 

On a more positive note, at least a proportion of the locos that were moved went to Dai Woodham's scrapyard in Barry. 

 

Thankfully in Britain a substantial number of locos escaped from being scrapped. In most countries the "official" railway museums account for most of their surviving steam locos, in Great Britain that's only a fraction of what is still around.

 

I had a look through a couple of preserved loco lists and according to these between 440 and 480 standard gauge steam locos survive in Great Britain in one form or another. There are certainly others in private hands not on the lists so the total is likely to be well over 500 and I wonder if anyone has a properly researched number.

 

"Preserved" can mean anything from running in regular service to being little more than a pile of rusty components with a dream attached (though dreams do sometimes come true!) but Great Britain does still have a surprisingly large fleet of active main line* steam locomotives. The total is vastly more than any other European country and quite possibly more even than the USA. 

 

According to one list the breakdown is 140 ex GWR, 102 ex LMS, 88 ex SR, 48 ex LNER, 47 BR Standard along with a few other industrial and "foreign" - mostly ex USATC.

 

* "main line" defined here as locos that worked on the national railway network

Edited April 9, 2015 by Pacific231G

[Fat Controller]

On a more positive note, at least a proportion of those locos were being moved to Dai Woodham's scrapyard in Barry. 

 

Thankfully in Britain a substantial number of locos did not get scrapped and while in most countries the "official" railway museums account for most of their surviving steam locos, in Great Britain that's only a fraction of what is still around.

 

I had a look through a couple of preserved loco lists and according to these between 440 and 480 standard gauge steam locos survive in Great Britain in one form or another. There are certainly others in private hands not on the lists so the total is likely to be well over 500 and I wonder if anyone has a properly researched number.

 

"Preserved" can mean anything from running in regular service to being little more than a pile of rusty components with a dream attached (dreams do sometimes come true!) but Great Britain does still have a surprisingly large fleet of active main line steam locomotives. The total is vastly more than any other European country and quite possibly more even than the USA. 

 

According to one list the breakdown is 140 ex GWR, 102 ex LMS, 88 ex SR, 48 ex LNER, 47 BR Standard along with a few other industrial and "foreign" - mostly ex USATC. and 11 industrial

The number of preserved industrial steam locos seems a bit on the low side, given that it seems to be a statutory obligation for any preserved line to have at least one for TTTE days. I'm sure the Foxfield on its own has more than 11.

[br2975]

Some things just stick in your mind..................

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Saturday 30th. April, 1966 - en route to Bristol, Bath Road Open Day I saw 33027, my only ever Q1 0-6-0 waiting at Severn Tunnel Jct. shed for movement to Cashmores, Newport; one of the last three in service (33006/20/27) , withdrawn in January 1966.  

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I remeber too seeing the likes of 46521 on the move by rail, away from Woodhams, and the no longer withdrawn 5322 being towed past Newport, Ebbw Jct. on its way from the Caerphilly Works preservation site to the GWS at Didcot.

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My only USA tanks 30067/69/71 lined up at Cashmores, Newport as I sailed by aboard the sand dredger 'Isca'.

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Nearly decapitating myself in the doorway of a withdrawn BR(WR)  "Noah's ark" brake van from Branches Fork/Pontnewynydd (stabled in front of a BR 'Crosti' 8F) an in use as a yard office at Buttigieg's, Newport Docks

 

I believe the last BR steam loco cut at Cashmores was 73069 in March 1969.

.

Brian R

[Simon Lee]

In the 60's I lived in Hull  by the High Level line to the docks, which passed Drapers scrap yard.

 

Every Saturday morning 4 locos would be towed passed our house to the yard, this being the "work" for the next week. The loco doing the tow would be a WD or B1 or later on a Class 14.

 

Occasionally a mid week move took place additionally once saw a Black 5 and a Stanier tank moving mid week. The Saturday run was normally the first 4 locos off the line in 7 Section at Dairycoates.

 

HTH

Simon

[Pacific231G]

The number of preserved industrial steam locos seems a bit on the low side, given that it seems to be a statutory obligation for any preserved line to have at least one for TTTE days. I'm sure the Foxfield on its own has more than 11.

I agree. The number 11 was part of a sentence I thought I'd edited out because I didn't believe it either. I've changed my post to lose that number. I'd actually be surprised if the real number of SG industrials is not well into three figures. The number of "foreign" locos in the list was rather low as well as it didn't seem to extend beyond seven ex USATC types. I'm sure the Nene Valley alone have several "foreign" locos.

One of the lists I found was here http://www.onlineweb.com/rail/locomotive_listing.htm which is on M J Smith's website but I've seen the same list elsewhere so I'm not sure who compiled it. It seems to be up to date to about 2010-2011 but I think was based on locos at known sites so may have missed some privately owned examples.

 

I don't know if it's even possible to compile a truy comprehensive list of ex main-line locos in Great Britain but the fact that 500 seemed to be an easily reached figure was very heartening as I'm sure the real total is quite a bit higher. While I doubt if there are private owners with a Castle or an A4 that nobody knows about, small tank locos are probably a different matter and as for narrow gauge the total is anyone's guess, would a thousand be over optimistic?

 

Trying to find out what remains in other countries is even harder but a fairly routine steam gala on a British preserved line can probably offer more main line locomotives than are available in the whole of a country like France. 

[richard i]

I'm just joking, I doubt anyone will have taken any offence from you asking

me too

[APOLLO]

This is an interesting site

 

http://www.whatreallyhappenedtosteam.co.uk/what-really-happened-to-steam-article-november-2009.htm

 

And this is an interesting book by Book Law

 

 

Central Wagon at Ince Wigan in  the early 60's scrapped many locos. Not a place I visited often as access was near impossible, and gricer eating wolves (Alsatians) prowled the yard !!! They dumped the incoming locos on sidings at the side of Springs Branch loco before hauling them off to die, so we got most of the numbers there.

 

I remember being on Chester station sometime back in the mid 60's, only a young lad. There was a Castle hauled special due, and the platform was crowded with "old gits". I headed over to a bay platform to inspect a shiny brand new "Brush type 4" (47) - the driver gave me a tour of the cab and showed me the "engine room". He was proud of that engine and said "he would be glad to see the end of steam". This event had such an affect on me, that ever since I have been a fan of both steam & diesel equally.(and also Woodhead & WCML 'leckys !!).

 

Brit15

[stewartingram]

I agree. The number 11 was part of a sentence I thought I'd edited out because I didn't believe it either. I've changed my post to lose that number. I'd actually be surprised if the real number of SG industrials is not well into three figures. The number of "foreign" locos in the list was rather low as well as it didn't seem to extend beyond seven ex USATC types. I'm sure the Nene Valley alone have several "foreign" locos.

One of the lists I found was here http://www.onlineweb.com/rail/locomotive_listing.htm which is on M J Smith's website but I've seen the same list elsewhere so I'm not sure who compiled it. It seems to be up to date to about 2010-2011 but I think was based on locos at known sites so may have missed some privately owned examples.

 

I don't know if it's even possible to compile a truy comprehensive list of ex main-line locos in Great Britain but the fact that 500 seemed to be an easily reached figure was very heartening as I'm sure the real total is quite a bit higher. While I doubt if there are private owners with a Castle or an A4 that nobody knows about, small tank locos are probably a different matter and as for narrow gauge the total is anyone's guess, would a thousand be over optimistic?

 

Trying to find out what remains in other countries is even harder but a fairly routine steam gala on a British preserved line can probably offer more main line locomotives than are available in the whole of a country like France. 

Try looking at this site (and also helping to keep it updated?):-

 

http://www.uklocos.com/

 

Stewart

[unravelled]

A photo from about Feb 1966.  4 locos, rods removed, are taken south by a Western.

 

 

Dave