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Crocodiles for Penrhos - now an etched C11


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I need a train of GWR Crocodiles (well wagons) to represent the trains that occasionally ran from the Brown, Lenox & Co works at Pontypridd to Newport docks carrying maritime buoys. Photos of a similar train show it was formed predominantly of one design, C11. But to make it a bit more interesting I’m going to use a mixture of designs.

 

The only model or kit of a GWR Crocodile is of the short heavyweight C23 design that was introduced in 1926. post-6743-0-06889500-1428610630.jpg

Considering it was brought out over 30 years ago by Mainline it is a very good model. There are two areas where the model deviates from the prototype; the bogies and the inside of the main I-beams. The bogies were taken from the earlier Mainline model of the bogie bolster Macaw B wagon. They are an easy fix using Cambrian bogies as a replacement. The I-beams are a compromise to the injection moulding process and have been made as C-beams. There is nothing that can be done other than use the Pocket Money kit that is occasionally available.

 

By 1920 GWR Crocodiles were divided into 3 groups; short 4 wheel designs that are of no interest here, type V crocodiles that had a flat plate joining the main well I-beams to the platforms above the bogies and type VI crocodiles that had a composite I-beam as per the Mainline model.

 

Fortunately for me the C23 design was very similar to the earlier C2 design introduced somewhere between 1915 and 1926. The first type VI C2 was introduced in 1915. It was 5ft shorter in the well than the Mainline model. Sometime between 1915 and 1926 it was rebuilt and the well lengthened by 5ft. The GWR Wagons ‘bible’ says 1915 to 1936 for the conversions, but I have a 1926 copy of the GWR’s own Special Wagons book which shows 2 off C2 at the longer length. So I’ve assumed that one was converted before 1920, my chosen year.

 

The conversion for the model to C2 requires cutting Vs in the end platforms, changing the buffers to the earlier coach like pattern and a bit of work on the bogies.

 

The first job is to remove the screw that holds the metal weight to the end platform. The weight then prises out of the plastic platform and then the bogie can be removed from the weight. The V is not actually a V.

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It’s about 1mm in from the 2 diagonal lines of rivets, 2mm from the central boss and 2mm from the edge of the platform. Once marked out it, use a 2-3mm drill to drill a line of holes inside the V, join the holes with a slitting disc and then finish with a file. The weight then needs to be temporarily replaced so the V can be marked. It is then given the same treatment.

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The boss for the fixing screw needs to be removed but do not remove the bogie boss.

post-6743-0-32541900-1428610824.jpg

 

The axleboxes on the bogies need to be replaced with round top axleboxes. These are available from Cambrian as part of their various GWR / BR bogies. The holes in the side need to be filled in with filler.

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Edited by Penrhos1920
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I’ve going to include references so that folk can find the photos and drawings I’ve used. So for the C2 made above there is a good series of photos in ‘Freight Wagons and Loads in service on the GWR and BR(W)’ for short FW fig.240 onwards. The drawing is in GW Wagons Torrett et al (GWW) fig.73.

 

Now if you model post 1926 and just want to improve your Mainline of Bachmann crocodile you only need to change the bogies and possibly replace the buffers. The photo for this is in ‘GW Wagons Appendix’ for short GWA fig.36

 

It’s best to see Mr Cambrian at an exhibition as you need to buy the C68 BR Plate Bogie kit but have him change the axleboxes for the round top ones from the C73 GWR Plate Bogie kit. This results in a bogie with top and middle re-enforcing angles, no access holes, a single bolster spring and round top axleboxes. Unfortunately the round top axlesboxes are a little over size but there is nothing that can be done about this. You can also upgrade the buffers by replacing them with white metal buffers from ABS/FourMost F334.

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  • 1 year later...

post-12545-0-49707100-1469692575_thumb.png

 

I was interested in your list of Crocodile wagons. I thought the attached 7mm scale model was a GW Crocodile type, but I may be wrong as it has a sloping transition in the frames and the number is 40993 suggesting another class. Can you throw any new light on this please?

 

Regards

 

Richard

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As you suggest that is not a Crocodile, but an Engineering Dept well wagon.  It is Diagram F3 and more like a bogie version of the 4 wheel Loriots.  I've always wondered why the GWR Engineering Dept didn't have Crocodile like wagons.  Maybe the 8 bogie well wagons where enough.

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I have a couple of the Mainline Crocodiles stashed away someplace and agree that they are quite good models for their age. I was wondering if it was possible to cut these down to convert them to a 4 wheel Loriot Y? Has anyone attempted this conversion or have any suggestions in what may work? 

 

Dave R.

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  • 5 months later...

One version that can be made by cutting up only one model is the short C2.  Built in 1915 with a very short 15' long well - 5' shorter than then Bachmann model.  Sometime around 1920 it was lengthened to 20', so it is suitable for Penrhos set in 1920.  The drawing is in GW Wagons Torrett et al (GWW) fig.67 and a photo GWW pl.88.

 

The Bachmann model needs to be cut into five sections, keeping 2 ends and the middle.  The floor is replaced and with planked plastikard and all glued together in one go:

 

post-6743-0-39093100-1485027610_thumb.jpg

 

I have rebated the floor into what remains of the sides and created the rebate with this guide fitted to a milling bit in my mini drill:

 

post-6743-0-86716800-1485027640_thumb.jpg

 

Bogies are straight from Cambrian models without any modification.  The mounts supplied fortunately fit with super glue onto the bottom of the metal weight without any modification.

 

post-6743-0-00652800-1485027709_thumb.jpg

 

If you want to make the much more modern Loriot Y you'd also need to make 2 cuts across each end piece to make it the right length.  So I think it is possible, but rather a lot of effort.

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  • 1 year later...

I can't believe that it is 18 months since I last posted on this topic! A crocodile that was slightly longer than the Mainline model was the C7 design. It was 5'2 longer in the well and 5'6 longer overall. There were 3 wagons that were rebuilt in 1909. The rebuilding appears to have used just the well of the old wagons and fitted new end platforms and bogies. This shows in the different construction of the platform and I beam and resulted in a unique feature where the well I beam overlaps the platform side.

 

To model this design I've cut off the platform of one Mainline model and cut another so that there is only 21mm of well, these were then spliced together.

post-6743-0-17770200-1529259945_thumb.jpg

I've then removed some of the detail on the I beams and added overlays to mimic the prototype design. The bogies are the original bogies with the strengthening removed.

 

An easier conversion is a C14. The same overall length as a C7 there were 4 wagons built in 1908. As they were built new to the same basic design as the Mainline model the well needs minimal alterations:

post-6743-0-31894600-1529261441_thumb.jpg

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Hi Penrhos,

 

These CROCODILES are excellent! Nice job! If it helps at all, my version of the preserved Didcot vehicle - Diagram C.12 No. 41934 of 1908 is here:

 

http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/51212-little-didcot/page-45

 

Seems silly to have to figure out the same problems I have already done a second time...

 

All the best,

 

Castle

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Hi Castle,

 

Here are my C12s. I made 2 expecting to break one or mess up the holes, but both have made it this far. I haven't done the lashing rings yet, I'll do them on all the crocodiles in one go.

 

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I read somewhere that one C12 received self contained buffers so that is one of my C12s. I like all of my wagons to be individual if possible.

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Some crocs were long lived and I managed to photograph a selection http://paulbartlett.zenfolio.com/gwrcrocodile

 

W36950 was interesting in that it was made of wrought iron and had not rusted like a steel constructed wagon would.

 

Paul

 

And it's still about, too:—

 

http://www.ws.vintagecarriagestrust.org/ws/WagonInfo.asp?Ref=9199

 

Much-modified from its as-built appearance though.

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  • 1 year later...

At last!  I’ve started putting transfers on my fleet of Crocodiles.  The first 3 are the long C15, C2 and short C2.

 

B812A988-1422-4D9C-BC60-5FAED4E80DAF.jpeg.b9f09f7d5ddfc2691d0e82235197c92c.jpeg

 

And in the modelling cradle is the C7 with transfers only on 1 side.

 

E1AA1F02-383A-4B4B-AF76-74C535BFE094.jpeg.6a637d00722cea4cf3741164681d3e85.jpeg 

Edited by Penrhos1920
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  • 1 year later...

Look what has arrived today.

 

IMG_1290.JPG.a0c018e65b000b77ff9929ef619f2b49.JPGIMG_1291.JPG.7ee858f17184fa59eecd250e3310f525.JPG

 

 

Printed parts for the C11 and C4.  There are bogie springs, axles boxes and rectangular and round 18" long wagon buffers.

A little while ago I order some etches from PPD:

 

Crocodiles.jpg.ffc84a3636cc3a6a45612a0057f8f908.jpg

 

There are 2 crocodiles here; the lower half is for a C11 which inculdes an etched bogie as it had a unique 4'6" design.  The upper half is for a C4 design of which there were 2 varients, so it inculdes parts for both types of end platform.  The C4 used a standard 5'6" bogie so the etch is designed to use the Cambrian C73 bogie kit.  I can't wait for the etches to arrive!!

 

 

Edited by Penrhos1920
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  • 1 month later...

Build of a C11 has started.  But why go to all the trouble to design an etch for a C11?  Well in 1920 the C11 was the second most numerous Crocodile on the GW.  The most numerous was the C12 of which there were 12 built in 1909.  10 C11s had been built int 1906.  The C11 was the earliest of the type V design that actually survived into the 1920s.  It has a unique design of bogie that is 1' shorter than the "standard" design that was used under all later Crocodiles, 40t coal wagons and Macaws.

 

First up is the floor and ends of the well.  There's just one piece to overlay here, so a nice and simple start:

 

182384542_IMG_1364-Copy.JPG.4baf1c5b061de2b9408f64afd2039f31.JPG

 

Followed by the side girders.  I've designed a little jig to hold the 3 pieces together.  The top and bottom pieces have little grooves that locate the middle part in them.  I found it easier to hold the 3 pieces in a vice sitting on the resistance unit return electrode rather than trying to hold them directly.

 

IMG_1365.JPG.344b278293a306b8453d451abd771dd6.JPG

 

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The end platforms are one piece with overlay for most of the rivets.  But there are a still a good number of them to press out.  There are 6 of them on the inside of the piece that needs pressing to opposite way to the others.  Because of the way the part folds, it will be easier to fold the 2 folds that form the inner side of the platform before forming any of the rivets, then pressing the rivets and finally folding the sides and outer end.  The folds half make themselves if they are scored a few times first.

 

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Edited by Penrhos1920
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Having folded the end platforms up, the next step is to tin the top and part of the sides ready for the overlays.  The ends and girders are joined together with tabs and slots.  Each piece has a tab that needs folding 90deg and a slot for the opposite tab.  I'm really impressed with myself as only the tinyest amount of removing the cusps was necessary for the tabs to locate snuggly in the slots.  (this is the first time I've used tabs and slots.  I did do an etch for this crocodile many years ago, but that was a bit of a disaster as it wasn't strong enough to hold even itself up!  This etch is almost redesigned from the bottom up)

 

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The tab that protrudes through the end plaform side will need to be filed flush for the side overlay to fit.  At one end only, the inside tabs also need to be filed flush so that the well can slide in.  It pushes all the way to the unfiled tabs at the other end.

 

IMG_1379.JPG.386b1dd86ebb9e9f5dfb63a8ada05d2b.JPG

 

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  • Penrhos1920 changed the title to Crocodiles for Penrhos - now an etched C11
On 11/06/2021 at 09:45, GWRMember said:

Will these etches and 3D parts be available to purchase? I would buy two sets.

 

Regards

Ken

 

Yes I hope to produce a complete kit and also of the other Crocodile I'm making.

 

The end platform top has a overlay with all of the rivet detail and there are overlays for most of the side details and around the corners.  Here I've folded up the one piece bogies and I'm setting the ride height.

IMG_1381.JPG.247776b36b78adc79fdf56daf2015e8e.JPG

 

 

 

 

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Now comes the fun bit....making the brackets that the loads are tied down to.

 

This is the starting point.  This little piece of brass is folded up first backwards along the vertical centre-line.  Then forwards along the two lines that join the little triangles. 

 

IMG_1397.JPG.6bba50ad59eec884f57ff1c408f11dfa.JPG

 

Then the triangles are filed off to leave this.

IMG_1410.JPG.83e14816fe2b6e2a25cffc5038e7d498.JPG

 

Then a shackle is taken and folded almost in 2.

 

IMG_1402.JPG.7e9273961e9421f09f5b6e9297f436a9.JPG

 

A pin (0.53mm x 26mm brass lace pin) is threaded through both holes of the shackle and another pin threaded through the resultant hole.

 

IMG_1403.JPG.6a24fa378a3ac09bad862f767ce88588.JPG

 

Using a pair of smooth faced parallel pliers the shackle is folded tight

 

IMG_1404.JPG.ff5ab09ec80cb9c9aff6667c21936333.JPG

 

Both pins are removed and then something a little counter-intuitive is done.  The shackle is opened up a little

 

IMG_1405.JPG.a64d68746a9d6f4a3652f419e7da195e.JPG

 

This allows the mounting bracket to be put in place and a pin threaded through the holes.

 

IMG_1406.JPG.fac7b752f4532ccd796105a521c883e4.JPG

 

The shackle is re-clamped, the pin cut off and then crimped to stop it falling out.

 

IMG_1406.JPG.fac7b752f4532ccd796105a521c883e4.JPG

 

After 20 minutes 3 of the 8 are made.  There are 12 load securing brackets in the well and depending upon how the load was held in place not all need shackles fitted..... Relief..

 

IMG_1401.JPG.54ee5ce4b6b1ce61cb023b1e86cfac74.JPG

 

 

 

IMG_1409.JPG

Edited by Penrhos1920
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Whilst you're enjoying the challenges of this kit there's more folding fun.  No  one makes the correct buffers for this wagon.  Several kit manufacturers have made the Churchward coach buffer, and some have even made versions that can be sprung.  But this wagon has a shorter version of the Churchward coach buffer.  Here I've made a 3d printed buffer housing and etched ram.  The Ram is a single piece folded in 4.  There is a small hole which needs opening up for a piece of spring wire.  The head is a 3 piece laminate which has a rectangular holw for the ram.   A bit of extra solder is required on the head to make the correct dome shape.

 

IMG_1395.JPG.50623f6762f59568885a067f145b94d8.JPG

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  • 2 weeks later...

The last bit of soldering is for 6 small handrail knobs.  These represent the load tie-down points that are on the sides of the wagon.  There is one on the side of each end platform and another in the middle of the well.  To get the end ones straight I used a long piece of wire to hole them in position before soldering.

 

IMG_1417.JPG.7b77506a7a6572d1c9ba708ef4b14fbc.JPG

 

That more or less completes the C11 wagon.  Only the 3d printed buffer housings and axlesboxes need to be glued on.

 

IMG_1428.JPG.43090d286dd3889f1d5a1d17997b9d25.JPG

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Next up is a C4 Crocodile C.  This wagon is similar to the C11 Crocodile B, the key difference is that the end platforms and bogies are a little longer, much like most of the later crocodiles except the mega K & L designs.

 

The kit design is basically the same and it goes together really quickly.  The C4s were built in 2 batches.  Numbers 41917 & 41918 and 41929 to 41932.  And what a surprise! There were differences.  Those I've been able to identify are:  buffers, size of the girder to end gussett, different rivet pattern on the top near adjacent to the well.

 

The first couple of photos pickup the build part way through and show how the end platform and side girder are joined together.  Note a piece of packing is used under the girder to the left of the clamp.

 

IMG_1418.JPG.d74707abe8b3179099d06750ef5c8a44.JPG

 

IMG_1419.JPG.a20fc063454ce074c027edd63f3a8329.JPG

 

Having completed all for corners the well is slid in place.  It is centred by aligning the central groove between the planks (marked with a highlighter so that I didn't loose it!) and the hole in the middle of the girder.  It is easier to align one side, put a solder tack underneath and then align the other side.

 

IMG_1421.JPG.fbd4e5a8607e645836453372a7a64442.JPG

 

Once the well is in the correct place the girders need to be soldered to the well.  The girders have a tendencey to splay out so I put several tacks along the well length, clamping the sides together to ensure that they sit tight to the edges of the floor.

 

IMG_1422.JPG.c23e04ba8491aa11b316009d61ee7e5f.JPG

 

 

The end platform top overlay is in 4 pieces because thats how the GWR built them over 100 years ago.  The pieces for 41917/8 are etched in order:

 

IMG_1425.JPG.32c19779e072ae4593e045f9477ca9ee.JPG

 

When soldered in place there is slight differences along the joints just like the real thing.

 

IMG_1427.JPG.0462e96fb400a6f6c41fa2fb2600579d.JPG

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I’ve never invested in a tool for folding brass.  That is until today when I bought this.7A3F6FA2-8607-486E-918A-EB5FC2F05958.jpeg.57ec90897b3f8bb7f468670f469bd420.jpegIt’s actually for working with leather.  The jaws are about 35mm wide which is great for folding up the end platforms, especially the awkward two folds in between the extensions down to the well.  (See my post of 7th June.)

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