RMweb Premium rab Posted March 22, 2016 RMweb Premium Share Posted March 22, 2016 Just caught up with this thread. Certainly seems like a few feathers have been ruffled! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
bobthesod4479 Posted March 27, 2016 Share Posted March 27, 2016 A quick heads up for those who may be thinking of going on the 5th to see the A4 and N2 I understand Steam Railway is running a story that the proposed and much publicised event on the 5th april which proudly announced that an A4 and N2 will be at the buffer stops to accompany the unveiling of the statue, has now been downsized to the N2 only as the Society 'couldnt afford the costs of getting the A4 there, which is owned by the societys president. So dont make a wasted trip to see a non existent A4. should i hear anything to the contrary i will update.And in the 'you couldnt make it up dept' this was in the Scotsman yesterdayNow bear in mind the Chairmans vociferous comments that 'All 10 of the Vice Presidents are against the Mallard'..OK? Now read onhttp://www.scotsman.com/news/transport/ ... -1-4083127Ron Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium polybear Posted March 28, 2016 RMweb Premium Share Posted March 28, 2016 Perhaps an RMWeb gathering at the appointed time could be in order - how about it Andy? You never know, we could end up on News at Ten. Or in the Cells for the night.... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
bobthesod4479 Posted March 28, 2016 Share Posted March 28, 2016 Perhaps an RMWeb gathering at the appointed time could be in order - how about it Andy? You never know, we could end up on News at Ten. Or in the Cells for the night.... As long as you dont festoon the statue with ducks, it would be an insult to Hazel the artist.. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
eastwestdivide Posted March 31, 2016 Share Posted March 31, 2016 Seems it's not only Gresley's duck causing controversy: http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-latin-america-35931668 with the excellent headline: "Rubber duck artist Florentijn Hofman in plagiarism row with Brazil protesters" Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jonny777 Posted March 31, 2016 Share Posted March 31, 2016 As long as you dont festoon the statue with ducks, it would be an insult to Hazel the artist.. And to the Gresley family, I suspect. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Revolution Ben Posted March 31, 2016 RMweb Gold Share Posted March 31, 2016 Hello all, I think it'd be a real shame if the duck was dropped, whatever the internal politics of the row. This is exactly the kind of opportunity that we should be taking to rebrand the railway hobby - whether full size or model - as being fun and inclusive. A light-hearted touch such as the duck at the feet of Sir Nigel draws attention and shows that, while celebrating the achievements of such fine engineers, we can also have a sense of humour and maybe a little irreverence about it. Unfortunately there is seem to be a lot of pomposity and self importance around, which can be off-putting and unlikely to help the hobby throw off its humourless and slightly dated image. Cheers Ben A. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
edcayton Posted March 31, 2016 Share Posted March 31, 2016 Hello all, I think it'd be a real shame if the duck was dropped, whatever the internal politics of the row. This is exactly the kind of opportunity that we should be taking to rebrand the railway hobby - whether full size or model - as being fun and inclusive. A light-hearted touch such as the duck at the feet of Sir Nigel draws attention and shows that, while celebrating the achievements of such fine engineers, we can also have a sense of humour and maybe a little irreverence about it. Unfortunately there is seem to be a lot of pomposity and self importance around, which can be off-putting and unlikely to help the hobby throw off its humourless and slightly dated image. Cheers Ben A. Unfortunately, when I dipped my toe into the Gresley Society there was plenty of both of those. In this case though I believe that it is the family who don't want the duck. I'll gladly give it a home. Ed Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Revolution Ben Posted March 31, 2016 RMweb Gold Share Posted March 31, 2016 Hi Ed, I think the point of statues in public places is that they allow society as a whole to honour an individual. HIs family are entitled to their view but in this matter I don't believe they are any more important than yours, mine or anyone else's. Cheers Ben A. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
edcayton Posted March 31, 2016 Share Posted March 31, 2016 Hi Ed, I think the point of statues in public places is that they allow society as a whole to honour an individual. HIs family are entitled to their view but in this matter I don't believe they are any more important than yours, mine or anyone else's. Cheers Ben A. Hi Ben, the point I was trying to make (badly as usual) was that the Society commissioned (and AFAIK) paid for the statue and presumably approved it complete with duck, and that it is the family that have objected. Is their view more important than mine? Probably. Should that make a difference Don't know. Ed Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Raised On Steam Posted March 31, 2016 Share Posted March 31, 2016 Nobody's asked the duck's relatives what they think. They might object to their grandfather being overshadowed by a 7ft man in a tweed suit. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
richard i Posted March 31, 2016 Share Posted March 31, 2016 Did the "gresley family" pay for the statue? No. At least no more than you and I. Do their opinions matter then? Yes but only in so far as to whether the statue defames their good family name. Is the statue saying gresley was rubbish? Quite the opposite so with or without the duck it praises him. Therefore should the duck stay? Yes if that is what was donated to by the people, agreed to by the council and the railway. They are welcome to there opinion and so am I but then the final decision should be based on what people who paid for it signed up to see. IMHO Richard Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jonny777 Posted March 31, 2016 Share Posted March 31, 2016 Did the "gresley family" pay for the statue? No. At least no more than you and I. Do their opinions matter then? Yes but only in so far as to whether the statue defames their good family name. Is the statue saying gresley was rubbish? Quite the opposite so with or without the duck it praises him. Therefore should the duck stay? Yes if that is what was donated to by the people, agreed to by the council and the railway. They are welcome to there opinion and so am I but then the final decision should be based on what people who paid for it signed up to see. IMHO Richard If Gresley was my relative then I would certainly say a duck tarnishes my family name. If someone wants to pay for a statue of my father I would be very honoured; but I would hope that out of pure good manners they would feel the need to consult me on how the statue might look and whether any additions would be approved of. The country, via donations and the heritage lottery fund, have paid for the expensive restoration of 60103 to main line running order. However, if those who paid for it voted to include the effigy of a man in a kilt with his arms outstretched welded to the smokebox door, I am not sure that they would get their own way over the Flying Scotsman purists. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Revolution Ben Posted March 31, 2016 RMweb Gold Share Posted March 31, 2016 Hello all, Irrespective of the arguments around who should decide what, I feel that whoever feels the duck is somehow "disrespectful" is fundamentally wrong. The Britisih have always been famed for their appreciation of wildlife and have, arguably, made a greater co/ntribution to the understanding of nature and conservation than any other nation. It is hardly surprising that some great locomotives would carry names that reflect this great tradition. Gresley will always be remembered as the designer of the locomotive acknowledged to hold the world speed record for steam, and that locomotive's name was Mallard. To me the Mallard in the statue is a witty acknowledgement of this with, perhaps, a slight artist's nod to the Cuneo mouse. It surprises me that anyone finds the Mallard in any way disrespectful or inappropriate. Cheers Ben A. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold chris p bacon Posted March 31, 2016 RMweb Gold Share Posted March 31, 2016 If Gresley was my relative then I would certainly say a duck tarnishes my family name. If someone wants to pay for a statue of my father I would be very honoured; but I would hope that out of pure good manners they would feel the need to consult me on how the statue might look and whether any additions would be approved of. Really ? how does a duck would tarnish the family name ? As for consultation it depends on which side of the argument you are concerning consultation, Sadly Andrew Dow is no longer with us so the Council seem to have been able to say the family weren't consulted........I beg to differ on that....and it seems others trustees such as earl Lindsay and W mcAlpine have a different view to that put forward. The problem is that the Council did a complete U turn over the statue/duck after the spec was released and gained planning permission and after people had donated. The Grandson(s) expressed their disatisfaction over the duck and the Council feted and brown nosed them without taking it to the members. While the Grandchildren are entitled to their opinion they have not paid or contributed to the statue, (much the same with Gresleys grave which fell into disrepair, it took others to do something about it) nor are they members of the society, so while it may be respectful to ask them it should not mean that their view carries more weight. What the Council have forgotten is that they are a members society not the representatives of the offspring of Gresley. Had the society as a whole decided against the duck then that would at least of been democratic. As it is this could easily be the end of the society or see the creation of another. I do know the Mallard badges are selling well to those with invites to the unveiling......last posting day is tomorrow to be in time for Tuesday http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/RSPB-Pin-Badge-Mallard-00362-/262325248055?ssP Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
bobthesod4479 Posted March 31, 2016 Share Posted March 31, 2016 John I know a lot about this. First of all the Council announced this at the 2014 AGM where there was not one objection, even from the other Gresley Grandson who was present. Less thn three months down the line and T Godfrey ( duck breeder by trade) you cant make this up can you!!!moaned about it citing that the special relationship that exists between them and th society would suffer. Nobody has EVER explained what this relationship is. He also rang round all the Council members and told them to vote the Mallard off.This they did.Oh and i might add that on several occasions where he has been invited to speak about his grandfather at memorial unveilings the first thing he mentions is 'going with him to feed his beloved ducks' What a man They are beloved when he gets a free nosebagging and demeaning when it suits him..He has more faces than the Kings Cross Clock. At the same time they were still requesting public donations and showing the statue with the Mallard. They have not contacted any of the public who have given good money to ask them their opinion I know of at least three who have put this fact in the public domain. The Council have repeatedly put forward lies and very dubious claims all of which can be debunked.. Th latest one to come out of this, is the chairmans claim, who now seems to be exceedingly quiet in all this, 'that all 10 of the VP voiced their displeasure', all that is except Sir William MacAlpine and the Earl of Lindsay who are pro Mallard and have gone public. the Chairman even wrote to Sir Willliam begging him to chang his mind and then when presented with the Earls revelations his lame excuse as. He Had forgotten that he didnt ask him. There are several other instances where the Council have done 'naughty things' which I cannot expand on at present, but should the manure ingress the ventilation system, there will be a lot of it about. Chris As i understand it, the of the Statue sub committee kept everything as quiet as possible from the terrible twosome just in case one of NR,English Heritage, or Camden council gave the thumbs down, NOt expecting the stamping of annoyed little boys feet. perhaps it was done out of spite as they were not in at the intitial consultation. And going from past GO's tweedledum and tweedledee joined in the late 80s early 90's and then were elevated to VP, and yes there are some odious people infiltrating the society as 'friends' of the current Council. Oh as regards the grave, although it is claimed there was an agreement with the society to keep it mantained, i have yet to find any reference to this in the back numbers i have. Having said that over the years there has been a lot decided that the members have not been kept advised of .It is run very shabbily to say the least, and now the icing on the cake. Not one member will be advised of the unveiling prior to the 5th as the next issue of the GO wont be out until the end of April. coupled with the complete PR disaster of annoucing specila events on the day the N2 and the A4 at the buffer stops which wont now be appearing as it will cost the society ' a amount appraoching 5 figures' to get it there, even though it is the Presidents loco. It is turning out to end up like Fred Karnos army A complete and utter farce, yet no doubt the encumbent will all be slapping each other on the back at the face feeding afterwards. Poor deluded individuals. I just wonder what colour the sky is in their world? Ron And the most damming evidence that all of this holds water. Not one of the Council has come back to deny any of it! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold chris p bacon Posted March 31, 2016 RMweb Gold Share Posted March 31, 2016 and now the icing on the cake. Not one member will be advised of the unveiling prior to the 5th as the next issue of the GO wont be out until the end of April. Thanks Ron. Invite came in the post about first week of Feb, so we have a representative attending....with a badge ....of a bird....possibly waterfowl Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
richard i Posted March 31, 2016 Share Posted March 31, 2016 If Gresley was my relative then I would certainly say a duck tarnishes my family name. If someone wants to pay for a statue of my father I would be very honoured; but I would hope that out of pure good manners they would feel the need to consult me on how the statue might look and whether any additions would be approved of. The country, via donations and the heritage lottery fund, have paid for the expensive restoration of 60103 to main line running order. However, if those who paid for it voted to include the effigy of a man in a kilt with his arms outstretched welded to the smokebox door, I am not sure that they would get their own way over the Flying Scotsman purists. Go on do it, do it. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
bobthesod4479 Posted April 1, 2016 Share Posted April 1, 2016 Jonny you should go to specsavers. Read my comments about the way one of the grandson uses the Mallard to get 'free grub' in extolling his grandfathers love of them, on several occasions. then re write what you said. And i believe that the other members of the Gresley Family are all in favour of the Mallard. It is just one sad old man who has in effect opened up a can of worms for the society in general and several members in particular. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jonny777 Posted April 1, 2016 Share Posted April 1, 2016 I'm afraid that I am not going to get involved in personal character assassinations, as I am sure some of my God-fearing ancestors would not approve of certain activities I may have got up to in the past. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
bobthesod4479 Posted April 1, 2016 Share Posted April 1, 2016 I'm afraid that I am not going to get involved in personal character assassinations, as I am sure some of my God-fearing ancestors would not approve of certain activities I may have got up to in the past. Telling the truth is not character assassination What he has said is in print. All i am doing is quoting him Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium polybear Posted April 1, 2016 RMweb Premium Share Posted April 1, 2016 The following information may be of interest, found on the Camden Council website; it relates to the planning application for the statue: http://camdocs.camden.gov.uk/webdrawer/webdrawer.dll/webdrawer/search/rec&sm_ncontents=2014/4569/L&template=reclistplanning&rows=1000 Included in one of the documents is the following text: "Accompanying the statue, and standing close to it, will be the likeness of a mallard duck.This also will be in bronze, standing on the floor. This duck is no mere whimsy: it is anallusion to Sir Nigel’s most famous locomotive, Mallard, which holds the world speed recordfor steam locomotives. It is also an allusion to Sir Nigel’s habit of feeding mallards at hispre-war home in Salisbury Hall." All images, drawings etc. which form a part of the Application show the Duck included. However, I can find no reference to an amendment or revision to the Planning Application, and certainly none which covers the revised design. So - will the installation of a revised statue be legal? I'm sure that if I were building an extension and the structure didn't comply with the application then the Council would be all over me. Boy, would I love to see proceedings get halted half way thru' the presentation... Brian Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold chris p bacon Posted April 1, 2016 RMweb Gold Share Posted April 1, 2016 The following information may be of interest, found on the Camden Council website; it relates to the planning application for the statue: http://camdocs.camden.gov.uk/webdrawer/webdrawer.dll/webdrawer/search/rec&sm_ncontents=2014/4569/L&template=reclistplanning&rows=1000 Included in one of the documents is the following text: "Accompanying the statue, and standing close to it, will be the likeness of a mallard duck. This also will be in bronze, standing on the floor. This duck is no mere whimsy: it is an allusion to Sir Nigel’s most famous locomotive, Mallard, which holds the world speed record for steam locomotives. It is also an allusion to Sir Nigel’s habit of feeding mallards at his pre-war home in Salisbury Hall." All images, drawings etc. which form a part of the Application show the Duck included. However, I can find no reference to an amendment or revision to the Planning Application, and certainly none which covers the revised design. So - will the installation of a revised statue be legal? I'm sure that if I were building an extension and the structure didn't comply with the application then the Council would be all over me. Boy, would I love to see proceedings get halted half way thru' the presentation... Brian Under planning law they haven't actually done anything wrong until the statue is installed. After that if there are comments from Joe public that the works aren't the same as the application the planners may use planning enforcement against the society. They may accept an amended application to cover the changes but I think they would also need to get English Heritage approval as well as Network rail. All of this comes with fees....lots of fees.... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Peter Kazmierczak Posted April 1, 2016 Share Posted April 1, 2016 Now if 4901 Capercaillie had been chosen instead of 4468 we wouldn't have had a "Mallard" problem. 4901 had (like 4468) the Kylchap double blast pipe arrangement, but was probably just too new an engine to be considered for those brake trails. So there was really no other choice of engine but 4468. Must admit though, that Capercaillie is a more attractive name than Mallard, but such is history. Probably would've had a "Capercaillie" problem though from a certain Mr G............................... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold chris p bacon Posted April 1, 2016 RMweb Gold Share Posted April 1, 2016 Now if 4901 Capercaillie had been chosen instead of 4468 we wouldn't have had a "Mallard" problem. 4901 had (like 4468) the Kylchap double blast pipe arrangement, but was probably just too new an engine to be considered for those brake trails. So there was really no other choice of engine but 4468. Must admit though, that Capercaillie is a more attractive name than Mallard, but such is history. Probably would've had a "Capercaillie" problem though from a certain Mr G............................... I could get you a badge of one of those too Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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