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Hi all,

I am building a 1970s colliery on my layout and was wondering which would be the best type of wagon to use as internal user wagons, either RTR or kits. I had thought of 16T minerals but thought someone might know of a better type of wagon appropriate to the era.

 

Thanks in advance

Michael

Edited by michaelp
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Hi all,

I am building a 1970s colliery on my layout and was wondering which would be the best type of wagon to use as internal user wagons, either RTR or kits. I had thought of 16T minerals but thought someone might know of a better type of wagon appropriate to the era.

 

Thanks in advance

Michael

Have a look at the invaluable Paul Bartlett's site:- http://paulbartlett.zenfolio.com/There's a lot of photos on there...

The North-East used a lot of purpose built/ rebuilt wagons, mainly hoppers. Elsewhere, by the 1970s, the last of the wooden-bodied wagons would be on the way out, replaced initially by the earlier types of 16-tonner. These would have been the ex-private owner types, ex LMS/LNER and ex-MoS types; initially, they'd have been patch-painted, until the bodies required replating, when they'd get a coat of fresh paint, either a sort of 'Indian Red' or black depending on the region.

There wouldn't just be coal wagons; larger systems would have wagons for maintenance use.

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It all depends on where you model and what you want to use that is available!

 

Work on the theory that what was withdrawn from Mainline use prior to your era but were in good order!

 

By this time the Charles Roberts ore hoppers; ex PO Coal Hoppers, Loco Coal, RCH 20 ton steel minerals, early BR 16t steel minerals, early LNER hoppers and MoT hoppers!

 

RCH 13t & 10t minerals plus Ministry of Munitions 20t hoppers, LMS/PO coke hoppers and NER wooden hoppers of all sizes would have been in use for years!

 

Mark Saunders

 

 

 

 

Mark

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It all depends on where you model and what you want to use that is available!

 

Work on the theory that what was withdrawn from Mainline use prior to your era but were in good order!

Succinctly put by Mark

.

Some NCB systems employed very few IU wagons - others had vast fleets; all depended upon the work involved.

e.g.

Waterside (Ayr) employed mostly wooden bodied stock in the early 70s with IU wagons carrying coal from outlying pits to Dunaskin Washery, from where BR wagons took the washed/blended coal out..

.

Graig Merthyr (West Wales) had few, if any IU wagons, most coal went direct from the pithead in BR wagons.

N.B. the Pontardulais - Graig Merthyr system probably had as many vans as IU opens; for the miners paddy train - so, if you want to justify an ex-SR banana van or ex-LMS van there's your out !

.

Mountain Ash (South Wales) had many wooden bodied examples, but was replacing them with purpose built tipplers using redundant tank wagon underframes - as this system employed a lot of internal movements between Penrhiwceiber, Deep Duffryn & Abercwmboi.

.

Cwm (Llantwit - South Wales) used a small fleet of wooden bodied IU wagons to move coal to the Landsale Yard, nut these were replaced by 16 tonners with steel bodies imported from other pits/systems (e.g. Mountain Ash) during the early 80s - other coal went out straight into BR wagons.

Places like Cynheidre & Onllwyn had large fleets of ex-BR wagons (and ex-PO conversions) including former BR HEA wagons at the latter.

.

The world is your oyster, and you can always resort to the first rule of railway modelling !!!!

 

It may be worth searching on Flickr as well.

.

Brian R.

Edited by br2975
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It seems to my observations that the NCB used an eclectic mix of what ever it could get cheaply for IU wagons, and tended to keep them going untill they literally fell apart. Bestwood and Hucknall (notts coal field) both had Ex Midland railway stock through till they closed down, alongside 16 tonners.

 

They seemed to be in varied and interesting states of repair and many variations in livery too! One that comes to mind is an ex BR 16T (I'm not sure its number) with a length of rope around one buffer Shank to its end grab handle, the caption said it was holding the buffer beam up!

 

So as mentioned, you can have a lot of fun with this area.

 

Sean

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Some photos of NCB internal user wagons.

post-7313-0-18037900-1429527196.jpg

Niddrie landsale yard, Edinburgh  circa 1972

 

post-7313-0-03911300-1429527983.jpg

Niddrie landsale yard, Edinburgh circa 1972 showing all the lettering!

 

post-7313-0-25195300-1429527209.jpg

Hopper wagon Backworth system [Fenwick Colliery?] near Newcastle circa 1973

 

Fox Transfers do lettering for NCB wagons.

Jeremy

Edited by JeremyC
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It seems to my observations that the NCB used an eclectic mix of what ever it could get cheaply for IU wagons, and tended to keep them going untill they literally fell apart. Bestwood and Hucknall (notts coal field) both had Ex Midland railway stock through till they closed down, alongside 16 tonners.

 

They seemed to be in varied and interesting states of repair and many variations in livery too! One that comes to mind is an ex BR 16T (I'm not sure its number) with a length of rope around one buffer Shank to its end grab handle, the caption said it was holding the buffer beam up!

 

So as mentioned, you can have a lot of fun with this area.

 

Sean

Some places went to great lengths to repair, and even rebuild, wagons, though. Paul Bartlett's site has some views from Hawthorn Colliery, such as this one, of wagons that have been completely rebuilt:-

http://paulbartlett.zenfolio.com/hawthornwagons/h21edb8bc#h21edb8bc

The North-East not only seemed to have more hoppers, it also seemed to have a lot of them purpose-built , rather than relying on re-cycled BR stock. I love those wooden-bodied hoppers in the style of steel-bodied ones..

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Michael

 

Since you are local to Blyth, Bates as a prototype has a pleasant selection of wagons!

 

https://www.flickr.com/photos/davidwf2009/5603546118/in/photolist-4EQDqU-4ELLJV-4EQWsW-4ELLKg-4ELLKD-4EQMf5-4ER6J3-d7H18L-joD1W2-4ELHXe-4ELA1v-4ELLKK-4ER6J9-4ER6HW-e5Faxn-9xaCYb-9x7DxB-9xaD37-acRta5-9xaD6L-4EQWt1-4EQMfb-4ELA1P-4ELSQx-4ELA1B-4ER6Jf-4ELHX2-4EQvps-4EQMeN-4ELLKT-4ELA22-4EQWth-4ER6HQ-4EQWtd-4ELA1D-4ELA1T-4ELHXx-4ER6Jd-4ELHXM-4EQWsQ-4ELLK4-4ELHXR-4EQMfd-chiusf-dik53m-4ELHWT-4EQWsJ-4EQMfs-aQLhAa-r3sfHa

 

This shot by Dave Ford is quite inspirational, showing the wagons present not long before closure!

 

There were a selection of early 16 ton minerals including LMS, LNER, MoT and two Chas Roberts slope sided;  there were a number of steel 21t hoppers, SRW wooden internal user hoppers and tipplers, as in the above of 23M at Fenwick part of the Backworth system!

 

The 16 ton Minerals had lost their side doors but retained the end door, prior to this there had been RCH 13ton minerals that had been rebuilt over the years again without side doors!

 

Mark Saunders

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Hi Guy's

Thank you very much for all the help and for taking the trouble to post photos and links, the hopper wagon photos taken at Fenwick in Backworth and posted by Jeremy C are of particular interest as my layout will be 70s based , although at the time of my original post I had no idea of the wagons used in collieries but the type shown at Fenwick would be something that I would like to use on my colliery or something similar.

I have done a quick search online but have not up anything of any real interest either RTR or kit form.

 

Michael

Edited by michaelp
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It seems to my observations that the NCB used an eclectic mix of what ever it could get cheaply for IU wagons, and tended to keep them going untill they literally fell apart. Bestwood and Hucknall (notts coal field) both had Ex Midland railway stock through till they closed down, alongside 16 tonners.

 

They seemed to be in varied and interesting states of repair and many variations in livery too! One that comes to mind is an ex BR 16T (I'm not sure its number) with a length of rope around one buffer Shank to its end grab handle, the caption said it was holding the buffer beam up!

 

So as mentioned, you can have a lot of fun with this area.

 

Sean

 

Although I completely agree about the considerable use of ex traffic wagons the NCB did purchase quite a lot of newly constructed hopper wagons (from Chas Roberts at least) of designs that didn't appear on the mainlines.

 

Paul

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Michael

 

There is a drawing of 53M published in "Coal trade wagons" by Len Tavender  "ISBN 0 9510987 1 3".

 

I believe that the M suffix and box with an exam' date  was to allow these on the main line possibly from Backworth to Whitehill Point for shipment after the NCB line closed!

 

edit

 

There is a picture of a class 37 on a train of  21t hoppers in the exchange sidings at Fenwick including some NCB iu wagons; follow this link

 

https://www.flickr.com/photos/12a_kingmoor_klickr/5788279990/in/photolist-9PurYS-6RV8jF-dQ4BgU-e9MyHm-eH8vfj-6RZdJC-eH8vo3-dGz5hj-7qsWmk-7qwTdj-7ZR6k7-gDdYKc-6RVcor-gDeok6-6RVdtn-9PHU21-gDdVtU-6RVajV-6RZcqq-6RZfBE-e1BSAp-o3jvVV-6RV7Av-fLB2Eh-6ZcENB-fLjsCz-e8q6T2-dXMF1Y-butR2x-6ZgtWU-6Zctf4-6ZBWNx-6ZcCkr-6ZgsdE-6ZgDcC-6ZgsLC-6Zcrh6-6ZcAxt-6ZcA4k-6ZcoCD-6ZcpMt-6ZFYUE-6ZcB9v-6ZcEdT-6ZFVJj-e59voX-o3itsH-o3ispF-6RV8V2-6RVbq2

 

Mark Saunders

Edited by Mark Saunders
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  • 5 years later...
On 20/04/2015 at 11:57, JeremyC said:

Hi folks,

I hope you don't mind me resurrecting this thread, however I am curious about this wagon photo that was posted here over five years ago.

 

On 20/04/2015 at 11:57, JeremyC said:

 

post-7313-0-18037900-1429527196.jpg

Niddrie landsale yard, Edinburgh  circa 1972

 

The location is fairly local to me, however what really caught my eye was the end door; only ever seen a five plank with end doors in china clay use.  Can anyone enlighten me on the origins of this one?

 

Many thanks for any help.

 

Regards,

 

Alex.

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Built for a mineral traffic of greater density than coal, the lower sides preventing overloading; which was then end tipped into ships or processing plant? (Shale oil pops into mind, possibly completely irrelevantly.) The distinct colour difference between the solebar and curb rail shade, and the five plank body sheeting, might also suggest it has been cobbled together from two previous vehicles: at some time well past judging by the corrosion of the bolt heads. Interesting.

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Hi again,

 

Thanks for that.  Hadn't thought about shale traffic; it's not too far to West Lothian from Niddrie (and with a direct rail route).

 

Regards,

 

Alex.

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I would suggest it's a 10-ton wagon of some antiquity - probably pre-dating the RCH 1907 specification - though it's been kept legal with brakes on both sides. It's the volume, and hence depth, that's relevant, rather than the number of planks per se. The solebars will be 11" or 12" tall, with the usual 2.5" floorboards and 4.5" deep side rail, the visible part of the solebar is 9" - 10". The planks (boards or sheeting, technically) look to be about that - say around 9" - which would give an internal depth of 3'9". That's not unreasonable - in fact 3'8" was a typical depth for a 10 ton wagon in the late 19th century. Compare the six plank wagon on the right, which looks deeper - allowing for it sitting lower on its springs. It's probably 4'0" deep, with 8" planks. 

 

So, I don't think that there's any need to speculate on unusual traffic - it's just a coal wagon and a 65+-year-old on at that, which makes it more interesting than your bog standard RCH 1923 12 tonner.

 

I should say that my comments are based on observation of English coal wagon building practices; things were often done a bit differently by Scottish builders for the Scottish market.

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On 12/08/2020 at 15:41, Compound2632 said:

It is, I think, from measurement off the screen, 16'6" long, which is quite long for a 19th century wagon.

 

Agreed, but a capacity of around 420 cu ft would be ideal for 10 tons of average coal. Notice it still has grease 'boxes though.

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