844fan Posted April 23, 2015 Share Posted April 23, 2015 Hello all, I'm not 100% sure this is the correct place to post this so if not I will move it. Anyway I've been after information for ages on a one of a kind tank engine. So far I've only leared a few things. Firstly she is the only engine of the Liverpool Overhead Railway powered by steam. Two She worked at Monks Ferry Wharf near Birkenhead. She is a 0-4-0 tank by the name of "Lively Polly" and I want to model her. Unfoutionetly I've come up dry on so many of my searches for information about her. As well I have only found 4 photos of her. Anyone have any clues where I can search? I'm wanting to also figure out her pulling power prototipicly so I know what kind of trains she could pull. But with so little information I can't even guess. Anyway any help would be appriceated. Thanks all, 844fan Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
DavidB-AU Posted April 23, 2015 Share Posted April 23, 2015 Is this one of the pics you found? http://i1.liverpoolecho.co.uk/incoming/article3239673.ece/alternates/s1227b/image-1-remembering-liverpool-s-overhead-railway-in-pictures-pics-mirrorpix-trinity-mirror-archive-86449845.jpg Cheers David 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
844fan Posted April 23, 2015 Author Share Posted April 23, 2015 Is this one of the pics you found? http://i1.liverpoolecho.co.uk/incoming/article3239673.ece/alternates/s1227b/image-1-remembering-liverpool-s-overhead-railway-in-pictures-pics-mirrorpix-trinity-mirror-archive-86449845.jpg Cheers David That is a neat little engine. But I do believe that is not Lively Polly. For one thing Lively Polly had Dumb Buffers and was never fitted with properly sprung ones. But that one does seem to be from Liverpool for the right line. Maybe it was her replacement when she went to Monks Ferry. You have given me another puzzle here David. And that is fine by me as I like these little shunters. Maybe I should rename the topic to Liverpool Overheas steam. Thank you much, 844fan Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
david.hill64 Posted April 23, 2015 Share Posted April 23, 2015 Is this one of the pics you found? http://i1.liverpoolecho.co.uk/incoming/article3239673.ece/alternates/s1227b/image-1-remembering-liverpool-s-overhead-railway-in-pictures-pics-mirrorpix-trinity-mirror-archive-86449845.jpg Cheers David What a great shot! 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
sir douglas Posted April 23, 2015 Share Posted April 23, 2015 there was a kitson tank that is quoted as working on the liverpool overhead. http://www.gracesguide.co.uk/images/8/88/Im195703RM-Kitson.jpg 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
avonside1563 Posted April 23, 2015 Share Posted April 23, 2015 Is this one of the pics you found? http://i1.liverpoolecho.co.uk/incoming/article3239673.ece/alternates/s1227b/image-1-remembering-liverpool-s-overhead-railway-in-pictures-pics-mirrorpix-trinity-mirror-archive-86449845.jpg Cheers David Looking at the caption date on the original photo that would be the demolition contractors' loco. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
844fan Posted April 23, 2015 Author Share Posted April 23, 2015 there was a kitson tank that is quoted as working on the liverpool overhead. http://www.gracesguide.co.uk/images/8/88/Im195703RM-Kitson.jpg Oh nice another shot of her. It's a very clear shot too. Though I don't like how she got the blockey Dumb buffers. The Bracket style ones she had in a few other shots look so much nicer. Looking at the caption date on the original photo that would be the demolition contractors' loco. Ah so a demo company. I'm guessing it was for decomissioning the old line. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
EddieB Posted April 23, 2015 Share Posted April 23, 2015 (edited) As I can ascertain (and there may be some dispute), it was originally a Kitson tram locomotive built in 1884 (b/n T111) and supplied to the West Lancashire Railway (no. 12 "CROSSENS"). It was subsequently re-purchased by Kitson's and converted to a conventional locomotive and fitted with new worksplates dated 1893. It (she) went into service on the Liverpool Overhead Railway, acquiring the name "Lively Polly". Sold in 1948, she was overhauled by Cudworth & Johnson of Wrexham and went to Monk's Ferry coal wharf, Birkenhead in 1949. I can find no record that the locomotive survives. As built the locomotive had 3'0" driving wheels. http://mikemorant.smugmug.com/keyword/overhead#!/ I've taken the liberty of copying a photo from the discussion on the Industrial Railway Society Yahoo Group mentioned in the above link. The original source was an Ian Allan "ABC of Minor Railways Locomotives", 1945. The "side tanks" are valences covering the valve gear. Edited April 24, 2015 by EddieB 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
sir douglas Posted April 24, 2015 Share Posted April 24, 2015 your photo insert doesnt dosent work Eddie Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
LMS2968 Posted April 24, 2015 Share Posted April 24, 2015 your photo insert doesnt dosent work Eddie Works fine for me. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
EddieB Posted April 24, 2015 Share Posted April 24, 2015 Thanks, guys. I couldn't see it either (might be a old IE browser), but it was there when I edited the post. Should be fixed now. 2 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
844fan Posted April 24, 2015 Author Share Posted April 24, 2015 As I can ascertain (and there may be some dispute), it was originally a Kitson tram locomotive built in 1884 (b/n T111) and supplied to the West Lancashire Railway (no. 12 "CROSSENS"). It was subsequently re-purchased by Kitson's and converted to a conventional locomotive and fitted with new worksplates dated 1893. It (she) went into service on the Liverpool Overhead Railway, acquiring the name "Lively Polly". Sold in 1948, she was overhauled by Cudworth & Johnson of Wrexham and went to Monk's Ferry coal wharf, Birkenhead in 1949. I can find no record that the locomotive survives. As built the locomotive had 3'0" driving wheels. http://mikemorant.smugmug.com/keyword/overhead#!/ I've taken the liberty of copying a photo from the discussion on the Industrial Railway Society Yahoo Group mentioned in the above link. The original source was an Ian Allan "ABC of Minor Railways Locomotives", 1945. The "side tanks" are valences covering the valve gear. LOR+LIVELY+POLLY+K+0-4-0WT+T261+blt+1893+JL.jpg Oh wow Eddie you are a wealth of information my friend. This brings the total photo amount up to 5. Huh she started life as a Tram engine. Thats interesting and certainly explains why she is so small after her rebuild. Side tanks doubling as splashers is a neat concept. And by my guess her cylinders are much larger than I thought. Bigger than the Flying Buffer Beams' if I may say so judging from these pictures. your photo insert doesnt dosent work Eddie Should work now. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium figworthy Posted April 24, 2015 RMweb Premium Share Posted April 24, 2015 LOR+LIVELY+POLLY+K+0-4-0WT+T261+blt+1893+JL.jpg What is the device under the buffer beam, in front of the front wheel ? Adrian Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
LMS2968 Posted April 24, 2015 Share Posted April 24, 2015 A device for cleaning the third (live) rail? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
844fan Posted April 24, 2015 Author Share Posted April 24, 2015 A device for cleaning the third (live) rail? Makes sense to me. I wish there were a way to figure out the color in old photos with some software. Love to know what livery she sported. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Delamar Posted April 24, 2015 Share Posted April 24, 2015 I think you are thinking of "Mermaid" which worked at Monks ferry before Lively polly and had large dumb buffers, i have a shot somewhere. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
844fan Posted April 24, 2015 Author Share Posted April 24, 2015 I think you are thinking of "Mermaid" which worked at Monks ferry before Lively polly and had large dumb buffers, i have a shot somewhere. I don't think so. All pictures I've seen are of the same loco but with differnt Dumb Buffer setups. Unless "Mermaid" Was of the same class I highly doubt it. Anyone know of any pictures of "Mermaid"? That way we can figure it out. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium Michael Edge Posted April 25, 2015 RMweb Premium Share Posted April 25, 2015 A device for cleaning the third (live) rail?Yes, it was an ice scraper for the third rail. 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium figworthy Posted April 25, 2015 RMweb Premium Share Posted April 25, 2015 A device for cleaning the third (live) rail? Yes, it was an ice scraper for the third rail. Thanks. Adrian Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
844fan Posted April 26, 2015 Author Share Posted April 26, 2015 Yes, it was an ice scraper for the third rail. Well then that solves that mystery. I suspect Ice was a bigger problem for suspended lines since it not only interfered with the power continuity but also weighed down the rail like it can do to overhead power lines. I've seen that kind of damage first hand three years in a row. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
pete_mcfarlane Posted July 23, 2015 Share Posted July 23, 2015 There's an engineering drawing of the loco for sale on Ebay. http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Liverpool-Overhead-Railway-Locomotive-Loco-Plan-Drawing-Diagram-/351380722650?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_3&hash=item51cfec53da 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
L49 Posted July 25, 2015 Share Posted July 25, 2015 There was a feature run on her in the mid (?) 30s, I think in Model Railway Constructor including photos front and back and sides, both before and after fitting dumb buffers. At the same time, the smokebox door was changed, and the cab extended back over the rear bufferbeam. I'll see if I can find it again (I was only reading it two weeks ago!) The photos aren't great, but they're better than nothing! I think there are also some more views of her in Paul Bolger's book on the LOR? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Killian keane Posted September 3, 2016 Share Posted September 3, 2016 (edited) With regard to the contention that this little beastie started life as tram engine t111 in 1884 i am fairly doubtful. In the book 'minor railways of england and their locomotives' there is provided an image of kitson no t260 of 1893 for the barry dock company from thence to the corringham light railway. Dimensions given as follows: cylinders 8"bore x 12" stroke, drivers 3' diameter, wheelbase 6' boiler 2'9" diameter with 73 tubes of brass, total heating surface area 159.5 sq.ft, grate area 6ft, weight in working order 10 tons 2cwt side valances 12"tall. This engine had bracket buffers and is credited as being virtually identical to lively polly (mayflower) the picture seems to show the engine in lined out works grey. Edited September 3, 2016 by Killian keane Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Killian keane Posted September 3, 2016 Share Posted September 3, 2016 (edited) I don't think so. All pictures I've seen are of the same loco but with differnt Dumb Buffer setups. Unless "Mermaid" Was of the same class I highly doubt it. Anyone know of any pictures of "Mermaid"? That way we can figure it out.Mermaid was an elderly manning wardle 0-4-0st at monks ferry coaling wharf where lively polly ended her days (at some point there named mayflower) there is a picture of the manning wardle towards the end of 'industrial locomotives of cheshire,shropshire and herefordshire' showing very large wooden block buffers. She was works number 226 of 1868 Edited September 3, 2016 by Killian keane Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
sir douglas Posted September 7, 2016 Share Posted September 7, 2016 (edited) id forgotten about this thread. over time ive found a few more pics of Polly and some similar others online, photos credited to whom they may be as i cant remember Kitson's 2752 and 2753 of 1884 of the Strathalbyn tramway, south Aus' kitson ? at Toongabbie quarry NSW T109 of 1893, Corringham light railway, Essex and lastly one im not sure of and used them to build an o gauge model, photo: mine rebecca (112) by Sam, on Flickr Edited September 7, 2016 by sir douglas 5 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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