Dean Goods - High Level Chassis

[nickwood]

The brakegear construction follows the same principles as previously described for the tender using laminated brake hangers and stretcher wires.

Here are the laminated hangers and the rear stretcher wire which has to be bent to provide clearance. There is an etch in the kit which provides a template for the bend in the wire and is then soldered in place to strengthen it.

 

 

The brake assembly with all parts set ready for trimming the stretcher wires

 

 

The rear brake cylinders

 

 

A test fit of the body and a view from the underside after the wires were  trimmed

 

 

 

Sandpipes fitted from 0.5mm wire

 

 

The complete brakegear assembly released so the the wheels can be removed.

 

 

Wheels off and balance weights fixed with 5 minute epoxy.

 

 

Everything has now had a thorough scrub with kitchen cleaner and an old toothbrush to remove any traces of flux and get the chassis ready for priming and painting.

[nickwood]

The brakegear construction follows the same principles as previously described for the tender using laminated brake hangers and stretcher wires.

Here are the laminated hangers and the rear stretcher wire which has to be bent to provide clearance. There is an etch in the kit which provides a template for the bend in the wire and is then soldered in place to strengthen it.

 

 

The brake assembly with all parts set ready for trimming the stretcher wires

 

 

The rear brake cylinders

 

 

A test fit of the body and a view from the underside after the wires were  trimmed

 

 

 

Sandpipes fitted from 0.5mm wire

 

 

The complete brakegear assembly released so the the wheels can be removed.

 

 

Wheels off and balance weights fixed with 5 minute epoxy.

 

 

Everything has now had a thorough scrub with kitchen cleaner and an old toothbrush to remove any traces of flux and get the chassis ready for priming and painting.

[nickwood]

Have done a bit of painting today. First the tender and loco chassis were masked to prevent paint getting onto the pickups, rear coupling and wheel bearings.

This meant masking off the whole of the top of the tender frames and cutting little square bits of tape to protect the bearings, they need to be applied to both the outside and inside faces.

 

 

The Loco chassis only needed the bearings masking

 

 

The wheels also need painting and the rims and flanges need to be masked. It is almost impossible to get accurate coverage with masking tape as it tends to buckle and crease on the curves so I resorted to using blutack by rolling a very thin sausage of the stuff and winding it around the rim like a tyre.

 

 

The brakegear and coupling rods need no masking. The whole lot will be sprayed with Halfords grey primer and then matt black as a base for weathering.

My preferred medium for the matt black has always been Games Workshop Chaos Black and I had a rattle can which I hoped would see the job done. I won't bore you with photos of all the components but here is the Loco chassis both in primer and matt black.
 

 

 

The job isn't finished yet as you may have guessed, the can ran out of paint halfway through spraying the wheels. My local Games Workshop store is closed on Mondays and Tuesdays so I can't get anymore supplies for a couple of days.

[EHertsGER]

Blutack tyres...! Doh!

 

Thankyou!

[Horsetan]

Blutack tyres...! Doh!

Thankyou!

I'm reminded of those Danish pastries....

[nickwood]

Both chassis, wheels and brake gear have now been painted. Halfords grey primer followed by Games Workshop Chaos (old name)/ Abadon(new name) Black and some base weathering. A close up of the loco frames are shown below. There is only really the firebox that you can see when the body is fitted. More weathering of all the components will be done after everything is re-assembled.

 

 

One of the driving wheels

 

 

As you can see the blutack sausages have done the job of keeping the treads clean. Only a very small amount of paint creep where the two ends of blutack met. This was easily cleaned with a cotton bud dipped in Isoprophyl.
 

 

I've made a start on the gearbox. The fabrication has gone ok but I'm having some difficulty with the actual gears. They do not seem to be the right ones for the box. Either I'm being thick and can't make sense of the instructions or the wrong gears have been supplied in the kit. I'm going to call Chris at High Level tomorrow to try and sort it out.

[nickwood]

Great customer service from Chris at High Level Kits. I called him this morning and he quickly deduced as I suspected that the kit had the wrong gearing pack supplied. A new brass gear is going to be posted today. He was also very helpful with a query or two I had with fixing the gears to the shafts/ axle.

Top Man

[nickwood]

Oh dear !!!

 

The gear arrived from Chris yesterday and I spent a short while in the evening putting the gearbox gubbins together. With the motor fixed to the gearbox I bench tested it and everything ran smoothly and quietly, so far so good, but..........with the motor mounted on the gearbox it will not fit between the frames to sit in the correct position.

 

The motor supplied is a Mashima 1024 which the instructions state is the correct one for a 00 build. Using some vernier calipers the width of the motor is exactly the same as the width between the frames so in theory it will go in but it sits exactly where the the firebox etches are fixed inside the frames which reduces the width by 1mm. I've checked and re-checked the instructions to make sure I've not missed anything but can't see where I've gone wrong.

 

The Mashima motor has flats on two sides with cylindrical ends. The kit is designed to mount the motor on the gearbox with the cylindrical ends across the frame. It would be possible to turn the motor through 90 degrees and drill new holes in the gearbox for the mounting screws but only one screw could be used as the other would foul the larger of the two stage gear. This might be the only option and use a single screw and fabricate some kind of brace on top of the gearbox to prevent the motor moving.

 

I'm going to call Chris today to see if he has a solution

 

 

note: apologies to Andy Y for the plethora of !!!'s and ........'s  (see http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/101020--/

[steam69]

I'm sure you can mount the motor as you suggest without drilling new holes, the end of the motor has 4 holes arranged at 90 degrees to each other.

 

Richard

[Limpley Stoker]

I'm sure you can mount the motor as you suggest without drilling new holes, the end of the motor has 4 holes arranged at 90 degrees to each other.

 

Richard

I've just checked my motor and it only has two screw holes. Wouldnt it be easier to drill two more holes in the gearbox ?

 

Mike

[nickwood]

I'm sure you can mount the motor as you suggest without drilling new holes, the end of the motor has 4 holes arranged at 90 degrees to each other.

 

Richard

 

Some motors may have but the 1024 doesnt, if it had it wouldn't be a problem

 

I've just checked my motor and it only has two screw holes. Wouldnt it be easier to drill two more holes in the gearbox ?

 

Mike

 

This was my first thought Mike, but as I said in my last post one of the screws would foul the 2 stage gear so only one screw could be used.

 

I've spoken to Chris Gibbon this morning and he advised not to use a single screw but to grind the firebox etch away inside to give clearance. I've done this and the motor now fits, but it was a heart in mouth job to do. I've spoken again to Chris and he is going to consider providing a firebox etch with a cutout to use for 00 that can be supplied as an alternative to the current etch in the kit. I'll post some photos and an explanation later today.

[Limpley Stoker]

I've just checked my motor and it only has two screw holes. Wouldnt it be easier to drill two more holes in the gearbox ?

Mike

,

Oh dear !!!

 

The gear arrived from Chris yesterday and I spent a short while in the evening putting the gearbox gubbins together. With the motor fixed to the gearbox I bench tested it and everything ran smoothly and quietly, so far so good, but..........with the motor mounted on the gearbox it will not fit between the frames to sit in the correct position.

 

The motor supplied is a Mashima 1024 which the instructions state is the correct one for a 00 build. Using some vernier calipers the width of the motor is exactly the same as the width between the frames so in theory it will go in but it sits exactly where the the firebox etches are fixed inside the frames which reduces the width by 1mm. I've checked and re-checked the instructions to make sure I've not missed anything but can't see where I've gone wrong.

 

The Mashima motor has flats on two sides with cylindrical ends. The kit is designed to mount the motor on the gearbox with the cylindrical ends across the frame. It would be possible to turn the motor through 90 degrees and drill new holes in the gearbox for the mounting screws but only one screw could be used as the other would foul the larger of the two stage gear. This might be the only option and use a single screw and fabricate some kind of brace on top of the gearbox to prevent the motor moving.

 

I'm going to call Chris today to see if he has a solution

 

 

note: apologies to Andy Y for the plethora of !!!'s and ........'s  (see http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/101020--/

I see what you mean, my motor is similarly 90 degrees out , and one of the two relocated screws would foul the gears I suspect Mashima changed their specs. You can't be the only person to contact Chris, so there must be an easy solution! How frustrating- this has been a gripping exposition- but I have always worried about gears!

Mike

[Barry Ten]

If it's any consolation, you're not the only one to run into problems with Dean Goods gearboxes and motors - here are my ongoing tribulations with the Comet chassis, rather than the High Level one:

 

http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/blog/257/entry-15636-dean-goods-the-saga-continues/

[Limpley Stoker]

Some motors may have but the 1024 doesnt, if it had it wouldn't be a problem

 

 

 

This was my first thought Mike, but as I said in my last post one of the screws would foul the 2 stage gear so only one screw could be used.

 

I've spoken to Chris Gibbon this morning and he advised not to use a single screw but to grind the firebox etch away inside to give clearance. I've done this and the motor now fits, but it was a heart in mouth job to do. I've spoken again to Chris and he is going to consider providing a firebox etch with a cutout to use for 00 that can be supplied as an alternative to the current etch in the kit. I'll post some photos and an explanation later today.

Sorry, I can't keep up with your posts!! Must read more carefully !

That sounds a scary solution. A replacement etch would be the best solution for those reading this thread in years to come!

I can't help feeling it's Mr Mashima's fault!

Mike

[nickwood]

,

I see what you mean, my motor is similarly 90 degrees out , and one of the two relocated screws would foul the gears I suspect Mashima changed their specs. You can't be the only person to contact Chris, so there must be an easy solution! How frustrating- this has been a gripping exposition- but I have always worried about gears!

Mike

Mike with the right parts the gears were actually quite simple to sort out. The High Level gearbox just lines everything up perfectly.

 

If it's any consolation, you're not the only one to run into problems with Dean Goods gearboxes and motors - here are my ongoing tribulations with the Comet chassis, rather than the High Level one:

 

http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/blog/257/entry-15636-dean-goods-the-saga-continues/

I have looked at your blog before which I found when searching to see if anyone else had documented the HL chassis build. I suspect most problems are because of lack of space and probably why Mainline originally opted for tender drive. Motor choice would also have been more difficult back then of course.

 

Sorry, I can't keep up with your posts!! Must read more carefully !

That sounds a scary solution. A replacement etch would be the best solution for those reading this thread in years to come!

I can't help feeling it's Mr Mashima's fault!

Mike

 

I think that is what Chris will do in due course. 

[nickwood]

Some positive progress to report.

First a photo of the frames from the underside with the gearbox etch held in place by the axle. The motor is secured onto the two tabs with the small holes and as you can see they themselves are a tight fit. It is also impossible to get the screws into the holes because as you can see the sides of the gearbox foul the holes.

 

 

The gearbox removed showing the axle and gearshaft. The gearshaft has to be cut almost flush with the gearbox sides using a disc cutter. Wear good eye protection when doing this, the discs have a nasty habit of disintegrating when you are least expecting it.

 

 

The two stage gear fitted and the gearshaft trimmed to length. Note where this gear sits.

 

 

A photo of the original brass gear supplied on the axle. The gear meshes with the smaller of the two stage gear in the previous photo. As you can see there is no room for the two stage gear to be fitted. It was at this stage I contacted Chris for the first time and found that the wrong gear had been supplied.

 

 

While waiting for the gear to arrive I fitted the motor to the gearbox. To fit the screws I had to cut away a small part of the etch. These screws are very tiny and a complete b****r to fit. Everytime you nearly get them into the hole the magnet in the motor pulls them away

 

 

Chris at High Level didn't like the idea of turning the motor through 90 degrees as only one screw could be used to secure it. He suggested carefully grinding the firebox etch away where the motor needs to sit. So taking a deep breath I did just that, going very carefully and constantly checking the clearances. You can see a number of holes where I have grinded metal away. These are in the firebox etch and are for flooding solder in to hold it in place. I knew when they disappeared that I had grinded the full thickness of the firebox. I also needed to make sure that I didn't go as low as the outside frame as this wold create a hole in the firebox etch and ruin it. You can see the depth of the front frame below opposite to where I have ground the firebox away.

 

 

A test fit of the motor, as you can see it just fits.

 

 

From the underside with all the gears fitted. Note the new gear has no shoulder and whereas the type of gear originally supplied are locked in place with a grub screw, this rely's on superglue, as does the worm on the end of the motor shaft.

 

 

The completed chassis, well almost, it still has to have pickups fitted and the tender drawbar.

 

It has had a quick test run on my rolling road by connecting the motor direct to a controller. Everything seems to be ok even though I haven't oiled or greased any parts yet. This job will be done after painting / weathering has been finished.

Finally with the body on to check clearances which again seem ok.

 

 

A question to end this post on; Do the nuts securing the coupling rods need securing or is a flash over with paint likely to be sufficient?

[Siberian Snooper]

If in doubt use a little nail varnish, it will lock most things but is also reversible if needs be. I have yet to have a pair of bins where a dab or two of varnish has not been used to hold loose screws.

[nickwood]

If in doubt use a little nail varnish, it will lock most things but is also reversible if needs be. I have yet to have a pair of bins where a dab or two of varnish has not been used to hold loose screws.

 

Thanks, I've had the very same suggested to me on another forum where I asked the same question. I know SWMBO has some nail varnish in red and purple but I'll have to sneak a look to see if she has any clear 

[Limpley Stoker]

Some positive progress to report.

First a photo of the frames from the underside with the gearbox etch held in place by the axle. The motor is secured onto the two tabs with the small holes and as you can see they themselves are a tight fit. It is also impossible to get the screws into the holes because as you can see the sides of the gearbox foul the holes.

 

Dean Goods 116 small.jpg

 

The gearbox removed showing the axle and gearshaft. The gearshaft has to be cut almost flush with the gearbox sides using a disc cutter. Wear good eye protection when doing this, the discs have a nasty habit of disintegrating when you are least expecting it.

 

Dean Goods 117 small.jpg

 

The two stage gear fitted and the gearshaft trimmed to length. Note where this gear sits.

 

Dean Goods 118 small.jpg

 

A photo of the original brass gear supplied on the axle. The gear meshes with the smaller of the two stage gear in the previous photo. As you can see there is no room for the two stage gear to be fitted. It was at this stage I contacted Chris for the first time and found that the wrong gear had been supplied.

 

Dean Goods 124 small.jpg

 

While waiting for the gear to arrive I fitted the motor to the gearbox. To fit the screws I had to cut away a small part of the etch. These screws are very tiny and a complete b****r to fit. Everytime you nearly get them into the hole the magnet in the motor pulls them away

 

Dean Goods 129 small.jpg

 

Chris at High Level didn't like the idea of turning the motor through 90 degrees as only one screw could be used to secure it. He suggested carefully grinding the firebox etch away where the motor needs to sit. So taking a deep breath I did just that, going very carefully and constantly checking the clearances. You can see a number of holes where I have grinded metal away. These are in the firebox etch and are for flooding solder in to hold it in place. I knew when they disappeared that I had grinded the full thickness of the firebox. I also needed to make sure that I didn't go as low as the outside frame as this wold create a hole in the firebox etch and ruin it. You can see the depth of the front frame below opposite to where I have ground the firebox away.

 

Dean Goods 125 small.jpg

 

A test fit of the motor, as you can see it just fits.

 

Dean Goods 126 small.jpg

 

From the underside with all the gears fitted. Note the new gear has no shoulder and whereas the type of gear originally supplied are locked in place with a grub screw, this rely's on superglue, as does the worm on the end of the motor shaft.

 

Dean Goods 130 small.jpg

 

The completed chassis, well almost, it still has to have pickups fitted and the tender drawbar.

Dean Goods 131 small.jpg

 

It has had a quick test run on my rolling road by connecting the motor direct to a controller. Everything seems to be ok even though I haven't oiled or greased any parts yet. This job will be done after painting / weathering has been finished.

Finally with the body on to check clearances which again seem ok.

 

Dean Goods 132 small.jpg

 

A question to end this post on; Do the nuts securing the coupling rods need securing or is a flash over with paint likely to be sufficient?

Thank you for taking us through this difficult modification. I wonder if Chris at High Level ever tried to assemble this kit in OO himself- he has been to all the trouble of designing a modification to the gearbox to fit inside compensation beams in OO.

 

Your excellent pictures reassure me that I can get the loctite to the final gear without gluing the gearbox bearings- there is more space than I thought, though to avoid all that grinding I am going to rotate the motor through 90degrees and secure it with one screw and cyanoacrylate. Bad engineering, I know, but I am not expecting it to do many miles.

 

I'm very grateful to you for getting my kit out of the 'too difficult' box !

 

Mike

[nickwood]

Thank you for taking us through this difficult modification. I wonder if Chris at High Level ever tried to assemble this kit in OO himself- he has been to all the trouble of designing a modification to the gearbox to fit inside compensation beams in OO.

 

Your excellent pictures reassure me that I can get the loctite to the final gear without gluing the gearbox bearings- there is more space than I thought, though to avoid all that grinding I am going to rotate the motor through 90degrees and secure it with one screw and cyanoacrylate. Bad engineering, I know, but I am not expecting it to do many miles.

 

I'm very grateful to you for getting my kit out of the 'too difficult' box !

 

Mike

 

Mike, you are welcome, I enjoy doing these step by step threads as I learn just as much from those who contribute as I may pass on to others in the course of doing them. It is afterall the main benefit of forums like RMweb I think.

 

With the knowledge that the firebox sides need some modifiction you could cut out the etches beforehand rather than turning the motor which is what I would do if I was doing another one. It would be easy to mark them up for cutting and you could cut away as much as you liked so long as you didn't go below the level of the outer frames. 

 

I just used a tiny amount of CAA on the end of a piece of wire to fix the worm and gear into place.

 

Good luck with it and let us know how you get on.

[84f]

Hi Nick, Really great thread, many thanks from me. I am just about to start one of these jobbies in EM, so watching your progress with great interest. AG wheels arrived today. I like your tender pick up arrangement, I will be really interested to see how that works when you get to test it out. Are you planning wipers for the loco? I am tempted to try the AG plungers as the chassis is pre drilled but I am not so sure that is a good idea with the compensation I am planning.

Cheers

Robin

[nickwood]

Hi Nick, Really great thread, many thanks from me. I am just about to start one of these jobbies in EM, so watching your progress with great interest. AG wheels arrived today. I like your tender pick up arrangement, I will be really interested to see how that works when you get to test it out. Are you planning wipers for the loco? I am tempted to try the AG plungers as the chassis is pre drilled but I am not so sure that is a good idea with the compensation I am planning.

Cheers

Robin

 

Hi Robin, I think you'll find it easier in EM than I have in 00. I connected the motor to the tender pickups today to test things out and suffered a set back. The Cyno holding the brass gear to the axle failed. So I now have to rethink how to fix the gear. The instructions say Loctite 601 but I can't find a source for less than £10 with postage which seems a bit excessive when I probably won't have another use for it afterwards. Expoxy might be an alternative I suppose.

 

I didn't opt for the plunger pickups due to the very restriucted space available in 00 but I am struggling to see how I am going to fit wiper pickups to the loco without then being visible under the boiler and destroying the look of the inside motion. I'm sure I'll find a way eventually but if building in EM I think you might be better fitting the plungers.

[Limpley Stoker]

Hi Robin, I think you'll find it easier in EM than I have in 00. I connected the motor to the tender pickups today to test things out and suffered a set back. The Cyno holding the brass gear to the axle failed. So I now have to rethink how to fix the gear. The instructions say Loctite 601 but I can't find a source for less than £10 with postage which seems a bit excessive when I probably won't have another use for it afterwards. Expoxy might be an alternative I suppose.

 

I didn't opt for the plunger pickups due to the very restriucted space available in 00 but I am struggling to see how I am going to fit wiper pickups to the loco without then being visible under the boiler and destroying the look of the inside motion. I'm sure I'll find a way eventually but if building in EM I think you might be better fitting the plungers.

So sorry to read of your gear incident: it's a pity an equivalent final gear with a grub screw is not available- there is obviously space as your earlier photo of the wrong gear wheel showed.

Thinking about pickups , as there is so little space , I wondered about the American system of having the loco chassis and tender chassis live for opposite sides, the downside being less wheels picking up and problems running over insulated joints.

Another possibility that occurred to me is to use phosphor bronze strip fixed to the underside of the plastic loco body splashes to rub on the wheels, the current passed to the motor by a sprung contact so the body is remove able. I've not seen it done so I will try a mock up and post a sketch or photo if it looks feasible.

Mike

[Limpley Stoker]

Hi Robin, I think you'll find it easier in EM than I have in 00. I connected the motor to the tender pickups today to test things out and suffered a set back. The Cyno holding the brass gear to the axle failed. So I now have to rethink how to fix the gear. The instructions say Loctite 601 but I can't find a source for less than £10 with postage which seems a bit excessive when I probably won't have another use for it afterwards. Expoxy might be an alternative I suppose.

 

I didn't opt for the plunger pickups due to the very restriucted space available in 00 but I am struggling to see how I am going to fit wiper pickups to the loco without then being visible under the boiler and destroying the look of the inside motion. I'm sure I'll find a way eventually but if building in EM I think you might be better fitting the plungers.

I've just realised why the grub screw fitted gear was not possible- the diameter of the boss interfered with the intermediate gear- I should have payed more attention to your text!

I couldn't find any cheaper source of loctite- it represents 20% of the cost of the kit! - it probably has a short shelf life once opened, but if you put it in the context of the hours you've spent on the project it's worth it!

Mike

[Paul Cram]

I use Loctite 638. I still have the original bottle I bought in the ;late 80's and it still works fine. In addition to gears I use it to fix Exacroscale wagon and coah wheels to their axles and for fixing whitemetal Chimneys and Domes to brass boilers.