New layout - 1970s North West

[meurglys3]

Hello

I have tearfully dismantled my loft layout "Makerfield" as I wasn't entirely happy with it, and I am about to start building a new layout. Back to bare baseboards.

It will still be nominally 1970s, North West, Wigan/St Helens area, but not prototypical location-wise. I want to achieve the following:

1. Accommodate a massive diesel shed (built)
2. Have an "open" baseboard arrangement to enable embankments, bridges etc., I want to see trains crossing bridges and disappearing into tunnels
3. Large-ish fiddle yard for decent length trains
4. No station (I have got rid of my passenger stock as I realised I never ran it. I seem to be far more interested in goods traffic) I just have a class 108 dmu which can trundle through.
5. More operational interest

Track plan hopefully attached, with lower level and upper level shown. Please feel free to comment. The embankment up to the depot will curve around the right hand side of the layout, probably using a woodland scenics riser after seeing what big jim has done with his layout and chatting about it. Hope it works. If it does I will be rewarded with panoramic views of the approach to the depot and hoipefully some wagon/cripple sidings.

 

I have kept most of the buildings from Makerfield and will re-home them on the new layout. I like to think my modelling skills have improved since I built that layout (starting in 2008) so they will be upgraded with new windows, doors, details and better (led) lighting which should result hopefully in less wiring.

 

I've spent this evening drawing out the scenic side of the lower level at full scale using track pinned down temporarily, and now my head hurts. There's a lot of work to do....
An added complication is the sloping attic roof, which means I will have to keep in mind gradually reducing clearances for buildings etc towards the eaves.
I'm not massively hung up on absolute realism so don't be pointing out rivets in the wrong place, I have read a lot of threads on here & I know what some of you are like...

 

I will be needing help and advice :-)

Here goes...
Pete

By the way, there are pictures of the previous layout here if you are interested (flickr).
https://www.flickr.com/photos/61418232@N02/sets/72157631182168086/

 

And of the diesel shed here
http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/24318-springs-branch-depot/page-3&do=findComment&comment=1829978
(Page 3 - tagged on to someone else's thread, for which I apologise.

[meurglys3]

The "lower level" by the way is actually a raised level, the "height of a typical bridge". I reckon this to be about 90mm in 00, based on a scalescenes viaduct arch. Would that seem about right?

The upper level will be maybe 120mm above that as I need clearance under it for the fiddle yard. This is the first bit I need help with though, do those figures sound about right?

 

And the first cutback - the factory top left now has only one siding due to lack of space in real life!

[Chimer]

Only just seen this ........ some quick comments:

 

Shunting the timber yard and factory areas is going to be difficult and foul the through lines - think about where your loco and brake van are going to be when you stop your train to access the sidings.  Particularly tricky for the timber yard, accessed from a facing point off the inner circuit.  You can run round trains using the crossovers on the through lines, but don't think that would be very prototypical.   

 

120mm won't allow you to fiddle very much - you won't be able to lift anything off the outer lines over stock on the inner lines.  Could you pull the fiddle yard forward so it's fully visible in front of and below the depot?

 

The gradient to the depot looks on the steep side, but probably OK for light engine movements.  But pushing wagons up there to get to the "wagon sidings if room" might be a bit fraught.

 

Trying to be helpful - best of luck!! 

[meurglys3]

Thanks Chimer! Good points there.

 

The gradient - I have bought an incline kit from woodland scenics, which rises to 4.5 inches over a length of 12 feet (edit: 16 feet!), which equates to about 2% I think. I have yet to install it but it looks fairly gradual. I will install it loosely and see how my Bachmann diesels cope with propelling stock up it.

 

The fiddle yard - yes, I see your point, the height below the depot is roughly 120mm which is a bit tight. I was thinking of hinging the board above so if derailments occur I can lift it to get to the stock. I intend to have assembled trains stored there so won't be lifting stock off and on to it.

 

As far as the sidings go, I will have a think. However as I have just finished building the baseboards I might have to go with it. My experience with my previous layout was that I didn't really bother with shunting movements, so they are more scenic than anything. I tend to just place stock there and run trains on the main circuits.

 

Thanks for your comments, I appreciate it.

Pete

[jon_1066]

Curious what your definition of operational interest is.  If you are not that keen on shunting then why include two yards to shunt?  If you can't make up different trains in your fiddleyard then you can't really run to a timetable of different trains coming and going.  How do you envision operating it?

 

Perhaps some kind of exchange sidings would suite you better?  eg a block train arrives, deposits it's wagons into the exchange sidings then leaves with the departing wagons in tow.

 

You could easily flip the timber yard so it is on a trailing point and make this more of an exchange.  You could then add a private yard shunter to it if you felt like shunting wagons about.

[meurglys3]

Would this work any better? I have revised the timber yard access to face the other way and included what I believe is called a headshunt ;-)

I think I should have room to do this, will check.

The factory top right will just recieve the odd van to load as part of a speedlink type arrangement, I'm not sure what its purpose is as yet.

 

To be honest I'm not that well up on operational issues, I just enjoy building so any help is appreciated. So please excuse my naivety. I don't spend a lot of time operating trains as I have a lot of other stuff going on so the "fiddle yard" sidings will just be to store made up rakes and bring them out for a run every so often.

 

Everyone wants different things from their layouts, sometimes I think discussions on here are counterproductive and i should just get on and build what I want, but on the other hand it's good to have input...

 

Pete

[meurglys3]

The whole reason for the upper level is that between layouts I built a very large diesel shed then realised it wouldn't really fit anywhere. But it's too good a model to not use, and my wife was tired of it taking up space in the house. Hence the unprototypical incline up to it and the fiddle yard problems. gah.

 

[jon_1066]

I would say that was worse.  Can't you just have the original arrangement but mirrored?  So your arches and everything flip as well?

 

The depot looks great by the way.

[Joseph_Pestell]

The whole reason for the upper level is that between layouts I built a very large diesel shed then realised it wouldn't really fit anywhere. But it's too good a model to not use, and my wife was tired of it taking up space in the house. Hence the unprototypical incline up to it and the fiddle yard problems. gah.

 

Worth a layout of its own!

 

Tinsley was a shed in the middle of nowhere at the top of an inclined branch (due to line closures). There is a prototype for everything.

[meurglys3]

Jon - I could flip the timber yard but, to be honest, I wouldn't understand why I was doing so. Is there any chance you could maybe sketch out what you mean and explain it to me?

I'm going to lay track for the main lines soon, so I would like to get a working plan sorted soon.

 

Pete

[APOLLO]

I have a loft layout and offer the following advice (as I've been there, done it wrong and had to alter it - several times !!)

 

Your first track plan seems fine, the timber sidings can be shunted across the crossover, this was done at Wigan Goods (Darlington St GC line). The siding entrance here actually crossed one of the main lines on a diamond crossing so there was no facing point on either main line.

 

Signal box Diagram

 

http://www.wiganworld.co.uk/album/3/4zbc8fp4.jpg

 

Some nice old photos showing the above, just for an idea.

 

http://www.lner.info/forums/search.php?keywords=wigan+central&sid=c6d084aa8484c71672b5b54a32092663

 

A bit early for your 70's layout as Wigan Central line closed in 1964, this bit to Wigan Goods lasted until 1967 for goods only

 

Access is most important - make sure you can get at everything after your scenery / buildings are installed. Don't put points in inaccesable hidden locations either - big trouble later as sods law says so !!!!. Take care with gradients, and don't have point work on gradients if you can.

 

Looking forward to seeing your layout. The photos on your sites are excellent.

 

Brit15

[meurglys3]

Hi Apollo, thanks for your comments, I shall pay heed.

That signalling diagram is fantastic, do you own that?

 

Regarding Wigan Central - I don't remember the station in operation, but I have a vague recollection of bits of it still being in situ in the early 70s, these were later cleared and made into a rough car parking area which I used when I was at the art school in Library Street in the 1980s.

 

I think I may have read some of your threads on here, I seem to recall your name in relation to the cameo cutter thread, and aren't you modelling some of the buildings on Wallgate? Also may have seen your stuff on the Wigan World site.

 

Are you still resident in Wigan? If so you can pop round and help me plan the layout, I'll put the kettle on.

Thanks for your help

 

Pete

[jon_1066]

In the UK trains travel on the left hand side generally.  So on your inner loop trains will be travelling anti clockwise.

 

A train travelling on the inner line would therefore have to pull the wagons into the timber yard and hence be stuck at the end of the siding.  The loco therefore would have to run around the wagons to be able to propel them into the sidings.  So most sidings will be on a trailing connection to the main line.  As has been pointed out you could shunt the sidings from the other line (where trains are going the correct way to do it) but this will block both lines.  This means you couldn't just let one train go round and round whilst you shunt with the other.  By mirroring your timber yard so it is accessed from the inner line on a trailing connection trains on your inner line can shunt the yard without running around and without blocking the other line.

 

There is a prototype for everything but it is much more common to have trailing points.  Especially in the period you are modelling since facing points were generally eliminated from passenger lines where possible (due to the risk of a mis set point sending a full speed train into a dead end siding or into a head first collision on the opposite line).

[meurglys3]

Okay....... I think I understand, thanks Jon.

 

Is this any better - I have revised a few things so there are now no facing points on either main line.

The entrance to the timber yard is now from a trailing point on the down main. I have realised that wagons could not be loaded in the yard by a forklift or reach truck on the ground so the yard will have to have its own shunter. This could be either an 08 sent from the main depot or a privately owned sentinel, I quite fancy one of those... so I have added a stabling shed. The theory is that wagons would be loaded by forklift at the buildings then shunted across the bridge to the sidings. A mainline loco will occasionally appear to collect them.

 

The exit from the depot incline now crosses the up main on a diamond crossing then accesses the down main, continues past the crossover and crosses back to the up main if required.

 

The diesel depot area has been revised so access to the wagon sidings starts after the end of the incline to avoid points on the incline. This means the fuelling and stabling road has been shortened but that's OK.

I will try to make the upper level in 3 sections, 2 of which will be hinged at the rear (no way will the depot board be hingeable) so that I can get to the storage sidings underneath. Might work.

 

Any good?

 

Pete

 

 

[Chimer]

Jon's expanded very clearly on what I was trying to say.  But if you just mirrored as he suggests, you would get your trailing access to the timber yard but would then have facing access to the factory.  Taking Apollo's point about trailing in across a diamond from the outer circuit, you could adjust the approach to the timber yard to include a headshunt like this:

 

Edit - the diamond could be a single slip if you wanted to keep crossover

 

Second edit - just seen your later plan which solves the problem neatly

[meurglys3]

Updates coming.....

[meurglys3]

I've laid all the track on the lower level and (admittedly steep) incline. I'll take some photos and post them soon, testing is currently taking place.
 

I got waylaid by a bit of a drama though. I spent a lot of time when I didn't feel like working on the layout, to test and clean my diesel fleet ready to go back into service, and noticed there was a side panel grille missing from my Hornby class 31 (31 270). With the mention of that number, some of you may know what is coming next.

After searching for the grille without result, the thought occured that during handling, it may have been pushed INSIDE the body.

So, I took the body off, and the grille fell out.

Unfortunately, the front of the chassis also fell out. And I noticed the back of the chassis was bent, so I gently tried to bend it back to shape. That broke off too.

So I had a bit of a google search for "Hornby class 31 problems" and was directed to a gallery of horrific pictures. Cracked bodies, broken chassis, disintegration. All manner of hell.

I've never known a more flimsy loco, Every time I tried to fit something back on another bit fell off.

Anyway, long story short, I've superglued it all back together, I had to cut various bits of chassis and body away, and glue the buffers & cowls to the body before squeezing the chassis block back in.

I believe it's just a few early variants that suffer from these problems and, as mine was bought second hand, I had no recourse back to the manufacturer... (I suspect that dealer saw me coming)

So - it's back together, it runs OK, but I know one thing - that body ain't coming off again no matter what.
I think it will spend most of its time "on shed". A shame, as it's a nice model, but just too fragile.

I'll post some layout updates soon.

Pete

[meurglys3]

 

 

Here's a mockup of the control panel I'm making for the depot. You may have noticed I'm calling the layout "Hope Springs", a nod to Springs Branch...

 

I need the various lights to run at different brightnesses (ie bright lights on the depot front & roof, dimmer light in the offices etc) All the lights are fitted so that was causing problems.

However I bought a Woodland Scenics hub (it's tiny and plastic but for £15 it's OK) which lets me adjust lights in various areas with the little dimmer controls. They adjust with a screwdriver but once I'm happy with the settings they can stay set. I like it, it seems to work.

 

Woodland Scenics would have you buy their own expensive leds but it works OK with led strips which is what I have in the pits and roof, and grain of wheat bulbs in the offices. I haven't tested it with those but if they don't work I will just replace them with strip led, which are much cheaper and I have loads of them. Their sockets use little plugs which I couldn't find seperately so I worked around it using tiny spade connectors and insulation tape. Again, when I wire it all up I will post some pictures.

 

Progress :-)

[PjKing1]

Looking forward to how you get on with this Pete, just regarding inclines into sheds an depots here's a pic of Edgehill shed, an a pretty steep incline.

 

https://www.flickr.com/photos/kerryp28/6813800500

 

Cheers, Paul

[meurglys3]

Thanks Paul, that's a great pic, just around the right era and motive power too.
It's a help because I wasn't sure if AWS equipment boxes were used at that time, but your pic shows them so I can have some on the layout!

 

Regarding the incline, mine starts out like that. And keeps going. :-)

[meurglys3]

Some photos of the state of play.

What I was trying to illustrate here are:

 

1: the severity of the gradient, which I have tested with most of the fleet - the class 08, 24s and 25s are fine with it, as is the class 40.

The class 31 and 56 struggle a bit on the tight curve at the back, but I can live with them being limited to work on the lower level. These 2 are the problematic runners of the fleet and tend to be a bit noisy on curves anyway.
(significantly the two Hornby locos, the Bachmann ones are much better runners) - although I did have a Hornby class 50 that was an impeccable runner, but got rid because it wasn't specific to my area and I wanted a 56... :-(

 

2: The clearance under the depot board. The board between this and the end of the incline will be hinged so I can get at the storage sidings underneath - I will need to be clever about how I wire and disguise the joins. I was thinking of walkways overlapping the joins at either end, leading from the depot to some steps down to the lower level signalbox maybe.

 

3: The entrance to the storage sidings at either end. I have used large radius curved points where possible, on my previous layout i had a lot of trouble with derailments when trains passed from a handed straight point into a curve. The approaches on this one are much smoother. The points at either end of each road are wired together through the cobalt ads8fx and work OK.

 

Looking at these photos makes me realise how much work I still have to do. The wiring took ages, but it is quite organised and all runs in trunking along the front edges of the layout, which will have covers fitted when it's done and tested.

 

The holes in the baseboards are where there will be bridges, embankments, and arches along the front stretch.

 

Pete

[PjKing1]

Some nice pics there Pete an a fine collection of loco's

 

Coming along nicely!!

 

Cheers, Paul

[meurglys3]

Made and fitted the hinged board which will have the access roads for the depot. Now comes the hard part of laying track to match up across the boards and wiring to make it all work.

I'm sure it will be worth it in the end.

 

I've realised I will have to remove the point from the stabling road on the depot board, which is ballasted and fixed securely (see post number 7). There is no room for the right hand exit from this point to go anywhere.

 

I will also need to re-do the ends of the shed roads so they can meet up with the hinged board. Rather than use copper strip contacts I think I will run wires from the ends of each board to the back of the boards and round, leaving plenty of extra wire for slack when the hinged board is lifted to access the storage lines below.

;-(

Best get on with it.

 

Ignore the scruffy front of the depot board by the way, this will be tidied up.

[meurglys3]

The control panel for the depot. Sadly the woodland scenics light hub doesn't output enough power to light the shed lights and offices & pit lights as I intended, so I have pressed into service some old H&M controllers to do this. The end result being it all looks a lot more heavy duty than it is.

 

The clipper will provide power to the depot track so it can be shunted independently of the rest of the layout, and the two multipacks power the various lights on the depot.

 

I will use the light hub (via the clipper's side output) to control yard lights and lights in a shunter's hut and fuelling point when I get a round tuit.

[meurglys3]

This is the cobalt controller board which powers the point motors on the main layout.

The points at opposite ends of the storage sidings are wired together so that they throw at the same time.

I haven't used the soldered terminals underneath intended for led indicators as that is beyond my skill level, and would result in even more wiring. Enough wiring already!