Clerestory Coaches, Knowledge needed! - And other GWR ponderings.

[Satan's Goldfish]

Hypothetically (because it's not my normally flavour with me being from GE territory and liking modern image) lets say I had a soft spot for the chocolate and cream of Great Western carriages. More specifically clerestory carriages. And I was thinking of maybe having a dirty little side hobby of picking up old Hornby or Triang carriages......

 

This being completely alien territory for me, I've just had a quick look on ebay and there seems to be many different types available. I don't mind older less detailed Hornby carriages, but what would run with what if I was to start collecting a rake or 2 of these types of carriage? There appears to be different window/door patterns on some and different lengths etc. How many brakes would be needed per train? How many carriages long was a clerestory style train?!

 

Also (again thinking cheaper older models), what locomotives and style of railway line would they be seen with?

 

And just to show how clueless I am on anything pre 1980, would more modern looking non-clerestory corridor coaches as found in certain red boxes be seen along side them in a possibly pre-grouping environment if I wanted a rake of those too?

 

Thank you knowledgable people for entertaining my 'stupid' questions.

Edited May 9, 2015 by Satan's Goldfish

[RosiesBoss]

G'day, SG,

 

Like many others, I model GWR - principally around 1930-35, within which period there were plenty of clerestory coaches mixed in with more modern types.

 

The Tri-ang/Hornby clerestory coaches fall into two groups: short non-corridor and longer corridor/vestibule types. Both are discussed here: http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/57781-what-are-the-best-rtr-clerestory-coaches/

 

Each type has plus and minus points. The short ones do not represent particular designs, but can be used to kitbash particular diagrams. Their bogies are incorrect also, but can be replaced by others derived from various kits. Their mouldings are in good relief and remain visible when repainted.

 

The longer ones have the mouldings simply painted on and are more tricky to modify. Nevertheless, their bogies are actually GWR ones and the models are closer to what actually ran. They have been produced in liveries suitable for 1809-1908, 1922-27, 1934-42 and 1942-48. Provided you select liveries appropriate to your modelling period, you may run them alongside most other GWR model coaches. Given that, apart from crack expresses, there was a lot of mixing of coach types within passenger trains, you can run these coaches with almost anything.

 

You would be well advised to borrow/acquire some well illustrated books with photos of GWR trains in your selected period. Some that I have found useful include:

• Fraser, Geen & Scott: "The Great Western Railway in the 1930s" (Kingfisher, 1985)
• Geen & Scott: "The Great Western Railway in the 1930s Volume Two" (Runpast Publishing, 1997)
• M.F.Yarwood: "Window on the Great Western" (Wild Swan, 1989)

A great resource for GWR modellers is: http://www.gwr.org.uk/

 

I'm sure others will add further advice, but the above may get you going.

 

Regards,

 

Rob

[corneliuslundie]

Re locos: for the Pre Grouping period, basically anything up to and including the Churchward standard designs. But the liveries changed after the First World War for both locos and carriages, and again in the 1930s and again after the Second World War..

[Satan's Goldfish]

Thanks guys, that's good stuff. I think I need some GWR books and to see which of the available locomotives I prefer then work out my carriage livery from that then.

 

Many thanks.

[Satan's Goldfish]

Would they be seen on single track as well as double track lines? And I'm rashly assuming they'd be able to negotiate radius 1 curves? I may be formulating a plan.....

[Satan's Goldfish]

Next question! It looks like it's the 1908 livery I have a soft spot for but the only 2 livery era variations I can identify is the 1908 then big 4 chocolate and cream. What was the 20s livery like? Is that the vertion Hornby were churning out in the early 90s?

 

Also, I'm struggling to identify the era of the triang stock. I'm guessing it represents big 4 rather than pre grouping, but on my google and ebay hunts the occasional picture appears of these old carriages with 'more brown' on which would suggest pre grouping but I can't tell if these are resprays or whether triang made them like it. If so, what's the era?

 

thanks for your patience, this is harder than I thought! At least there's a nice selection of pre group locos available.

[RosiesBoss]

G'day, SG,

 

The 1908 livery is described as "Lake" and resembles the crimson lake of the Midland Railway, as seen here: http://www.gwr.org.uk/liveriescoach1912.html

 

This was changed to a chocolate/cream livery, similar to pre-1908 liveries, in 1922, as seen here: http://www.gwr.org.uk/liveriescoach1922.html.

 

Many  of the long clerestory coaches made by Hornby are in the 1922 livery, but not all.

 

Have a look through the other coach liveries summarised here: http://www.gwr.org.uk/liveries.html

 

For full details, I can highly recommend this reference: http://www.hmrs.org.uk/books/bookdetails.php?bookid=1033

 

Be careful of the "advice" in Hornby catalogues - there are many schoolboy howlers to be found in their recommendations of which coaches go with which locos.

 

As for the Tri-ang short clerestories, their simple paint schemes do not comply with any of the actual GWR liveries, lacking lining, crests and actual running numbers. I do find them pretty, but generally rebuild/repaint/renumber/rebogie those in my collection. Here is one rebuilt into an ex-MSWJR coach:

 

Happy modelling!

 

Regards,

 

Rob

[Satan's Goldfish]

Many thanks, I think I wrote down wrong what I meant, I'm liking the pre 1908 livery! Interesting to see it matches very closely the 1922-27 livery, means I can get away with more that also resolves some of my confusion with the Hornby liveries.

 

I need to build a child friendly layout for my children (they can abuse some of my Lima diesels and mk2 coaches) and thinking of incorporating a lot of my old left over robust models for scenery, mostly of Hornby origin. But also making it back-dateable for my pre-group GWR fetish and dose of 009 (a lot for 1 layout, but I do have a plan!) So I probably need to rename this thread for general GWR ponderings.....

 

To start with, if I had a station with an overall roof, for GWR what colour would the frame work most likely be?!

[RosiesBoss]

G'day, SG,

 

Thanks for your latest question. 

 

I believe that this page will answer lots of questions re GWR structure colours: http://www.stationcolours.info/index.php?p=1_5_GWR

 

When applied to kitbuilt or even some RTR models, these colour schemes provide a strong GWR feel to models, even the Hornby halt shelters here on one of my layouts: http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/uploads/monthly_04_2013/post-17793-0-25309200-1366534616.jpg

 

I hope this helps.

 

Regards,

 

Rob

[Il Grifone]

The main difference between the pre 1908 and post 1922 liveries was that, with the former, the coach ends were brown. Also around WW I the clerestorey lights were painted over. GWR practice resulted in mixed trains of clerestorey and non-clerestorey stock - a coach was a coach, it's design was irrelevant. (The latest stock appeared on the principal expresses of course, but then drifted down to secondary duties.)

 

Unfortunately pre-grouping R-T-R stock is limited to clerestories - we would like some 'toplights', but it is doubtful if we will ever see any.

 

Between 1908 and 1912 coaches were painted brown and crimson from 1912 to 1922. (WW I may have seen exceptions).

 

Mouldings ceased to be picked out after 1928.

Edited May 10, 2015 by Il Grifone

[Satan's Goldfish]

That was very helpful thank you, gives me good ideas on parts I'd like repaint on some of the ready to plonk buildings.

 

Next! Did the GWR use hydraulic buffer stops in any of it's terminus stations or bay platforms as early as 1900? Going to do some research on this one for the rest of the country too as I have no idea when they first came into use.

[Satan's Goldfish]

The main difference between the pre 1908 and post 1922 liveries was that, with the former, the coach ends were brown. Also around WW I the clerestorey lights were painted over. GWR practice resulted in mixed trains of clerestorey and non-clerestorey stock - a coach was a coach it's design was irrelevant. (The latest stock appeared on the principal expresse of course, but then drifted down to secondary duties.)

 

Unfortunately pre-grouping R-T-R stock is limited to clerestories - we would like some 'toplights', but it is doubtful if we will ever see any.

 

Between 1908 and 1912 coaches were painted brown and crimson from 1912 to 1922. (WW I may have seen exceptions).

 

Mouldings ceased to be picked out after 1928.

Many thanks for that. I highly suspect I'll get a 'wrong' carriage at some point but I think it's the apperance that appeals more to me than being prototypically acurate. It will help that the layout will be more 'toy train' than 'fine scale' to keep it child friendly. However I also want to include my growing 009 collection which is more delicate model than toy train! Could be an interesting layout......

[wagonman]

G'day, SG,

 

The 1908 livery is described as "Lake" and resembles the crimson lake of the Midland Railway, as seen here: http://www.gwr.org.uk/liveriescoach1912.html

 

This was changed to a chocolate/cream livery, similar to pre-1908 liveries, in 1922, as seen here: http://www.gwr.org.uk/liveriescoach1922.html.

 

Many  of the long clerestory coaches made by Hornby are in the 1922 livery, but not all.

 

Have a look through the other coach liveries summarised here: http://www.gwr.org.uk/liveries.html

 

For full details, I can highly recommend this reference: http://www.hmrs.org.uk/books/bookdetails.php?bookid=1033

 

Be careful of the "advice" in Hornby catalogues - there are many schoolboy howlers to be found in their recommendations of which coaches go with which locos.

 

As for the Tri-ang short clerestories, their simple paint schemes do not comply with any of the actual GWR liveries, lacking lining, crests and actual running numbers. I do find them pretty, but generally rebuild/repaint/renumber/rebogie those in my collection. Here is one rebuilt into an ex-MSWJR coach:

Ex-MSWJR Brake 3rd #4650, Feb 2012.JPG

 

Happy modelling!

 

Regards,

 

Rob

 

Rob

 

Just a thought, but as the MSWJR coaches were exMR (or new build to similar style) would not your kit bashing efforts be better directed at the Ratio MR kits?

[TheSignalEngineer]

A late survivor shown here. http://www.warwickshirerailways.com/gwr/gwrbsh1368.htm

[Il Grifone]

Rob

 

Just a thought, but as the MSWJR coaches were exMR (or new build to similar style) would not your kit bashing efforts be better directed at the Ratio MR kits?

 

I understand they were second hand MR coaches, but not the same as the Ratio kits. In any case the GWR quickly disposed of them.

[Jeff Smith]

A late survivor shown here. http://www.warwickshirerailways.com/gwr/gwrbsh1368.htm

Hard to tell what the livery was - wartime brown perhaps?

[RosiesBoss]

Rob

 

Just a thought, but as the MSWJR coaches were exMR (or new build to similar style) would not your kit bashing efforts be better directed at the Ratio MR kits?

G'day, Wagonman,

 

I did use both Tri-ang and Ratio components for the two MSWJR coaches I built, as described here: http://www.gwr.org.uk/nomswjr7.html

 

I find great satisfaction in researching obscure prototypes and then making models of them. It makes my collection a little different from those based only on RTR items.

 

Regards,

 

Rob

[wagonman]

I understand they were second hand MR coaches, but not the same as the Ratio kits. In any case the GWR quickly disposed of them.

 

I did say kit-bashing. The all-3rd would be relatively simple as all that's needed is the removal of one compartment. Oh, and a new underframe/bogies etc. The MSWJR did have its own new-build coaches which were similar to the MR design (again the 3rd almost exactly) except that they were electrically lit rather than gas. Some of them lasted to the 1930s.

 

I did actually do a couple of these "modifications" many years ago but later gave them away. 

Edited May 18, 2015 by wagonman

[Satan's Goldfish]

My first dirty old GWR purchase is now in the post 3 Triang carriages in an older livery.

[DonB]

 

Would be worth a look at  gwr.org.uk Which contains some kit bashing details of Clerestory coaches. Started by Mikkel of this parish and now in other hands, but I believe still active.

 

[Satan's Goldfish]

Next!

 

the Hornby 4 wheeled coach. I already know it's not based on anything 'real', but how close is it to something GWR from 1900?

[BG John]

Next!

 

the Hornby 4 wheeled coach. I already know it's not based on anything 'real', but how close is it to something GWR from 1900?

It's got four wheels .

[BG John]

But seriously, anything that short would have been a survivor from the mid 19th century, and have a totally different appearance. More like this one, although I couldn't find a photo of a GWR one online, so this is LNWR:

http://www.lnwrs.org.uk/Carriages/Lnwrs1863.php

[Satan's Goldfish]

Thanks John, I think I'll ignore those then.

 

The postie delivered these today:

 

 

The slipery slope starts here!

[Penrhos1920]

Next!

 

the Hornby 4 wheeled coach. I already know it's not based on anything 'real', but how close is it to something GWR from 1900?

 

 

Have a look here: http://www.penrhos.me.uk/ShortCoachesIntro.shtml