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m0rris

CMAC's Big news in little trains... 00 Electrostar

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Evening All,

 

A wee while ago I enquire about 3D model commissioning, and, well, one thing has lead to another and this is the current state of play.

 

post-7229-0-15197200-1431560390.png

 

It is shiny, it is blue and it looks a bit like a 380 - seeing as it is early days in the project I am happy with that. However, as the eagle eyed amongst you might have noticed, there's a few flaws in my model, particularly below the solebar.

 

RMWebbers help would be much appreciated when it comes to bogie design. My man in the know needs a little bit more info as he slaves away and I am particularly looking for help with the right width to fit a set of normal 9mm wheelsets in? I am well aware that the whole project could meet a slightly embarrassing last minute delay if the gap ends up being too big or too small. Any other tips as to how to get working bogies right will also be well received!

 

Secondly, what would be the best thickness for the walls? The models are intended to be produced in FUD/FXD (except for the main chassis which will be printed in WSF) at shapeways, which can go down very fine thicknesses but how fine should we go before the structural intergrity becomes too much of an issue?

 

Any help would be very much appreciated,

 

Regards,

 

Charlie

Edited by m0rris
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I think the minimum thickness for walls is 1mm. If lower then I'd use 0.8mm and nothing lower than that as it will affect the structural strength of the model.

BTW...Nice work!

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Hi Morris,

 

Ref. thickness for walls, I can only offer advice from my own experience (I designed the N gauge 165/166 unit that's on Shapeways, with others on the way). 

As well as wall thickness you must also consider the thickness of the motorised chassis/motor block and how it will interact with the model. 

 

Unless you are developing your own motorised chassis then you should leave at least 15mm - 16mm internally right up to the top of the motor block in order to use something like a Farish DMU chassis (150 or 170) or a tomix or Greenmac chassis  (It will be beneficial in the long run to start thinking about everything in terms of height above the rail head). 

 

You also don't want to have the sides of the motor in constant contact with the 3D printed shell, so it's a good idea to 'open up' internally around the motor block, allowing the shell to contact on the plastic part of the chassis around about the solebar level.  I've attached a little diagram to hopefully show what I mean (from a Class 323 with a Farish 170 motor chassis - you can see how easy things can 'collide') ....

 

 

Also, if (by the looks of things) you're planning on having embossed/engraved window/door details then trust me when I say you wan't them to be at least 0.2mm, if not 0.3mm.  Whilst that may at times be overscale (particularly with window frames), visually the detail will be lost if printed at 0.1mm, thus defeating the object!  It's all a careful balance of what can be printed and what will look right when all finished and painted up.

 

 

 

Hope that's of some use to you, and good luck with it! 

Regards,

Paul

 

Edited by bigP

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Thanks guys for your help so far, it really is much appreciated. I have passed on your reccomendations to my man and he is continuing his work, the surface details have been changed but it has not had a particularly negative affect on the appearance of the model.  With the shortage of Japanese bargain 23m chassis I am going to use a Farish 170 chassis, they might be more expensive but at least they are a known quantity.  (Modelling EMUs with 21m chassis should be much cheaper...)

 

Out of interest BigP, last time I heard that you were doing some of the electric networkers, you wouldn't happen to be doing a "Happy Face" 365? With the news that they are moving to the GWML I think I might have to splash out on one if you do!

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Yeah I was working on them, then it all paused. 

It's a cost thing really - I was 'dumbing down' the detail so they would print in FD, but they've got rid of that so now there's just FUD.  Does anyone really want to pay approx £120 for the blank shells of a 4 car EMU ?!?!?

I might continue and just upload them and people can choose, but I just think Shapeways prinintg is all a bit of a luxury these days.

 

Besides, sunny weather makes me want to be outside and not sat in front of my PC!

 

 

 

Final Tip!  If you're going for a Farish 170 chassis then you won't be able to get the motor unit in the panto car!  Damn things get in each others way!

 

 

Paul

Edited by bigP

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It's a cost thing really - I was 'dumbing down' the detail so they would print in FD, but they've got rid of that so now there's just FUD.  Does anyone really want to pay approx £120 for the blank shells of a 4 car EMU ?!?!?

 

Personally I would.  I don't think that is at all unreasonable.

 

Cheers, Mike

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Hi Charlie,

 

That looks really good.  I agree withn Mike but what I would say is that most people would probably want to know that they can finish it to a decent standard - ie suitable decals or vinyls available, motorising straightforward etc - before shelling out!

 

The best way to do this is, as David did with his Pendolino and OTP, to build one and show progress on the thread.

 

Great job on the 3D work though.
 

cheers

 

Ben A.

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Does this mean I have to record a 380 now.....?! I suspect the majority of sounds will be the same as a 350 though, which I've done already. Anyone know of any audible differences?

 

Bif

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Thanks for the kind words and advice guys.  Unfortunately I can share no pictures due to my brilliant* internet connection but there has been another wave of work completed and it is now looking very 380 like and work has moved on to the bogies and other vehicles in the formation.

 

BigP, I suppose the nub of it is how much are people willing to spend for a unique model offered by no-one else, at least you have a pretty good idea what you are getting into when you purchase a 3D printed model. Thanks for the tip about the Pantograph well, the model will be purchasable in 380 3-Car and 380/01 4-Car formations which give a couple of options for where the chassis goes.

 

Ben, it is a bit of a chicken and egg scenario at the moment, I have made preliminary enquiries about vinyls which came back with positive results, so I decided to press on with the project and get into the nitty gritty once I have the shells ready. I'd also like to look into transfers but I am not sure who to ask about those. Needless to say, there will be a build thead in due course ;)

 

The biggest issue I am facing at the moment is working out how to get the couplings right, joys of getting this sorted a couple of hundred miles from my trains I have no reference material to hand but we'll get there.

 

Legoman biffo having spent plenty of time around 380s and 350s I honestly still can't tell the difference, they make the same Siemens Electrics noise, hustle and door open alarms etc seem to be the same as well just the announcements inside them.

 

Thanks everyone for all your help and kind words,

 

Charlie

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Hi Charlie

 

I think Railtec models do decals for the Saltaire logos and the white/blue spots, so this may make the whole project a lot more feasible...

 

cheers

 

Ben A.

Edited by Ben A

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Hi Charlie

 

I think Railtec models do decals for the Saltaire logos and the white/blue spots, so this may make the whole project a lot more feasible...

 

cheers

 

Ben A.

 

Indeed we do, and these open up numerous possibilities including 156, 158, 170, 380, mk2s (which we already do in this scheme) and class 68s, so if this project were to fly then there's possibly an option there. Over time we'll be releasing packs of this scheme for RTR models anyway, but as ever it's just a case of finding enough hours in each day as I dare say we're probably the busiest company in the modelling industry as we release 450+ new product lines every year!

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Hi Steve,

 

I popped a message to you this morning and it should be hiding somewhere in your inbox for you to look over when you have the time!

 

post-7229-0-28609700-1432123232.jpg

 

Finally my internet is playing ball so I can share the latest developments with you. As with before, this is still a long way from completion and there's a long list of  things I want altered (and a few details that will be unprintable that need to be removed) but it is looking ever more 380 like. Please ignore the bogies, they are being totally redone...

 

post-7229-0-66772900-1432123904.jpg

Edited by m0rris
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Photos to follow on the weekend but the 380 project is not dead, just bubbling along below the surface. I am hoping to have test prints ordered by the end of the week and then the model out and on the shapeways by the end of the month.

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The lack of drawings has resulted in a few issues with the proportions of the 380 which have slowed progress siginificantly, however, we have now got back on track and I have ordered the first prototypes from shapeways.

 

In the meantime, my modeller had a window in which he could fit in another model, he made me a good offer and I decided to throw caution to the wind and let him have another go... I think he's done alright ;)  He has tidied up a few of the details and sorted out below the solebar since the screenshot was taken as well so I have been very chuffed with his progress.

 

post-7229-0-27954300-1436355287_thumb.jpg

 

I have gone slightly more mainstream, and I have chosen a prototype that isn't in my modelling area at all... (yet). It has progressed to the fiddly bogie stage but should be under a week away from the ordering of the first prototypes and I am very excited. Being a shorter chassis, this one will be alot cheaper to mechanise as well.

Edited by m0rris
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Good work on the Electrostar, looking forward to seeing that progressing!

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The lack of drawings has resulted in a few issues with the proportions of the 380 which have slowed progress siginificantly, however, we have now got back on track and I have ordered the first prototypes from shapeways.

 

In the meantime, my modeller had a window in which he could fit in another model, he made me a good offer and I decided to throw caution to the wind and let him have another go... I think he's done alright ;)  He has tidied up a few of the details and sorted out below the solebar since the screenshot was taken as well so I have been very chuffed with his progress.

 

attachicon.gifelectrostar 2.jpg

 

I have gone slightly more mainstream, and I have chosen a prototype that isn't in my modelling area at all... (yet). It has progressed to the fiddly bogie stage but should be under a week away from the ordering of the first prototypes and I am very excited. Being a shorter chassis, this one will be alot cheaper to mechanise as well.

 

I for one, would certainly be interested,if it comes to market.

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Afternoon Gents, a quick update on the electrostar project is that we have made good progress and I am hoping to have the 3d models with me this afternoon so that I can put together a test print order and have something "physical" to show the world within the next fortnight.

 

The model is of a class 377 but I am struggling to find the external differences between 377/379/387, apart from those 377 without  pantographs. Any help would be much appreciated. Of note is that once the initial electrostar has been finished, I plan to do 376 and 378s as well. Unfortunately, unless there is a massive wav of interest I have no intentions of doing the 357s and again the 375s are not in my immediate plans.

 

With regards to releases, the current plan is to relase the full range in N gauge with releases in 00 if there is sufficient interest. As a word of warning to 00 guys, the prices are going to be steep but seeing as it is not much trouble to have the models  converted to 00 it is currently my plan to offer them in 00 as well, first as bodyshell only but later on I will include chassis if there is sufficient interest. Using imaterialise I can get a quote for the bodyshells alone circa £60 per carriage, which is going to be pushing on the limits of some people's modelling budgets and is for the basic white polyamide prints with no finishing affects. Again, depending on the levels of interest, I am prepared to investigate resin casting of finished bodyshells to bring down the unit costs for 00 but all of these take time and money and my current focus is on getting the N gauge range up and running.

 

The models will be made available on both shapeways and imaterialise to purchase, as well as complete kits (with wheels provided but no powered chassis - yet) on ebay. If anybody is after them, I can easily make available complete "dead" sets kits with all vehicles unpowered for those looking for something different to haul behind a loco or static display. I am working on a range of transfers but at the moment Steve at Railtec is very busy, so it looks like they will get done as and when he has the time. If there is sufficient interest from those who would like them I am more than happy to investigate vinyls.

 

Thanks for all of your kind words,

 

Charlie

Edited by m0rris

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The model is of a class 377 but I am struggling to find the external differences between 377/379/387, apart from those 377 without  pantographs. Any help would be much appreciated. Of note is that once the initial electrostar has been finished, I plan to do 376 and 378s as well. Unfortunately, unless there is a massive wav of interest I have no intentions of doing the 357s and again the 375s are not in my immediate plans.

 

 

The 377 you are modelling seems to be the less common 5 coach 377/6 and 377/7 varieties which have individual framed windows rather than ribbon glazing of the more common older type in the /1 to 5 subclasses which are also the same as the 375's.

 

I would be most interested in a OO version.

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Thanks for the heads up, about that, I will have a word with my modeller and aim to get the ribbon glazing versions covered as well in due course.

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Excellent news. With the ribbon glazing version that 300+ potential units to model vs the 128 of the newer version (377/379/387).

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The 377 you are modelling seems to be the less common 5 coach 377/6 and 377/7 varieties which have individual framed windows rather than ribbon glazing of the more common older type in the /1 to 5 subclasses which are also the same as the 375's.

 

 

That was my initial thought, which caters for the later models, but not the earlier ribbon design which makes up the vast majority of the Southern and all of the Southeastern fleet.

 

I have a fair few pictures of the Southern 377 fleet, which shows some of the differences. Hopefully this might be useful - I have countless more if helpful!

 

post-6831-0-90152300-1437320902.jpg

Dual-voltage 377701 at East Croydon. These are more or less identical to the DC-only 377/6 fleet, save the pantograph. Distinguishing features include being a 5-car set, having the individual windows (as opposed to the ribbon) and having the low-level high-intensity light on the front skirt (lit when the train is in motion, presumably when the door are locked).

 

post-6831-0-70474900-1437321081.jpg

377150 shows the very different window effect for the ribbon-glazed sets.

 

As an added bonus, the 375 and 377 fleets have some cab-end differences - as demonstrated below:

post-6831-0-09406700-1437321340.jpg

 

In terms of the Southern fleet, 377101 - 377139 and 377301 - 377328 have the cab design of the right-hand unit. 377140 - 377164, and all of the 377/2, 377/4 and 377/5 fleets follow the design of the left-hand unit.

 

There was quite a long thread about the 377 as a model on another forum, the 'winner' was the 377/2. Dual-voltage, but now more in general use for Southern and Thameslink, therefore can be seen anywhere between Hastings and Southampton, Brighton and Bedford, Sevenoaks and Milton Keynes.

 

post-6831-0-17213000-1437321791.jpg

377201 in darkest Sussex.

 

Needless to say, should something come of this, I would certainly be interested.

Edited by Claude_Dreyfus

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Sorry to go slightly off topic (the screenshots look great, by the way.  Completely out of my area, but they look like they'll build into great models, I look forward to seeing the finished articles) but why exactly would the 377, as in the pic of 701 above, have an extra light in the faring below the cab?  Is it for illumination, visibility, or some kind of a sign to platform staff?

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Thanks Claude, they are some excellent shots and that is some very useful information. The current plan as it stands is to get my n gauge models perfected and ready for general sale, this should give me the suitable experience for later on and hopefully expose any bugs and flaws before we start thinking about larger prints.

 

Re. getting the 377/2 done, as I now know about the different windows I can get that sorted. The windows for N gauge will not present too much of an issue as they are being done "solid" anyway, with indentations in on the side to allow painting/surface affects which I will be using in the build thread. If/when I get round to doing an 00 377/2 it might cause a few more headaches as it will have to have holes in the windows to allow people to glaze them and to keep the costs down but I am slightly wary of making something "fitted for but not with windows" without having a good idea what will go there so I might have to appeal to the community to see what would be best to use for the windows, I have seen that James Makin used cut up Bachmann 170 windows in his thread - a luxury many might not be able to afford.

 

Handily, it looks like bulk ordering on imaterialise can get costs down towards acceptable for the bodyshells in 00, but we will still be looking at quite a high price to provide all of the bodyshells required and if imaterialise prices rise to anything close to shapeways, it is game over. It is also worth noting whilst I am doing just that in N, at the moment a complete 00 kit of chassis/bogies/interior/glazing/transfers/bodyshells is definitely a step too far for me and once again, (using the most important word when it comes to 00 gauge electostars) IF we get that far, they will definitely be marketed as Worseley Works "scratch-aid" style kits to help modellers get the job started! If prices keep tumbling with 3D printing (and the rising pound should help with that) or resin casting could work, then we can start looking at more parts available and edge towards a full kit but once again, we are in IF not when territory.

 

Seeing as the potential of an 00 gauge electrostars has gathered a bit of interest, it is something I will sit down and have a look at. As I have said above, there are a lot of IFs at the moment and once I have fully sat down, done the numbers, checked the feasibility over and got the 3D models ready then I will start talking about whens but I am very keen to keep to the facts and not the possibilites at the moment.

 

Charlie

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Sorry to go slightly off topic (the screenshots look great, by the way.  Completely out of my area, but they look like they'll build into great models, I look forward to seeing the finished articles) but why exactly would the 377, as in the pic of 701 above, have an extra light in the faring below the cab?  Is it for illumination, visibility, or some kind of a sign to platform staff?

Hi,

 

I believe it's to help to illuminate the coupling and the track immediately in front of it, so that a camera can record what is seen and that can later be used for fault diagnostics on both unit and track.

 

Also it gives some light when coupling / uncoupling units

 

Simon

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Sorry to go slightly off topic (the screenshots look great, by the way.  Completely out of my area, but they look like they'll build into great models, I look forward to seeing the finished articles) but why exactly would the 377, as in the pic of 701 above, have an extra light in the faring below the cab?  Is it for illumination, visibility, or some kind of a sign to platform staff?

 

At a guess, it would seem much more useful at that level for people working trackside, particularly in depots. In the train dispatch process (at my TOC at least but most likely everywhere) the Orange DOL lights on the carriage sides are king. It is worth noting that lights on trains are primarily for others benefit, not the driver, hence why they travel at all times with lights on - to alert anybody on the railway of the direction of travel and potentially the state of the train (in distress, divided etc).

 

EDIT - Simon has beaten me to it with a much more plausible answer.

Edited by m0rris

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