DJ Models - J94 Update

[tractionman]

Hattons have them up for pre-order now, and I pre-ordered one of each of the newly announced ones.

 

Well spotted, here's the link

 

http://www.hattons.co.uk/stocklist/3094212/1000588/1000640/1446726/DJ_Models_Dave_Jones_OO_Gauge_1_76_Scale_Steam_locos_UK_rail_era_5_BR_steam_Late_Crest_1957_1966_1957_1966/prodlist.aspx

 

Very tempted but I'd like to see how the liveries look first before pre-ordering - less than ninety quid seems a good price to me for these models.

 

all the best,

 

Keith

[tomparryharry]

Just pre-ordered the MSC version.

 

Ian

[GreenGiraffe22]

Are there any plans for an as-built WW2 WD one?  It'd go well with the Hattons WW2 warwells   plus I really want one!

Edited August 15, 2017 by GreenGiraffe22

[Clock O' The North]

DJ, of the allocated price for a J94, 90 pound, what constitutes the vast majority of the engine. Is it the chassis, the production costs per model or the actual plastic. 

Thanks

[Roy Langridge]

DJ, of the allocated price for a J94, 90 pound, what constitutes the vast majority of the engine. Is it the chassis, the production costs per model or the actual plastic.

Thanks

I would guess recovering the costs of design / tooling, but does it really matter? It seems to me this is DJ commercial information.

 

Roy

[Les1952]

This post ain't going to be all that popular - BUT....

 

I think you missed a trick, Dave.   Given that you deliberately held off putting up the price of the first batch  I think you could have set the RRP of the second release at £109.95 and given yourself a little more financial wriggle room.  The discounters would still have brought them in at under £100.

 

After all, the competition (or a foreign-owned part of it) is bellyaching about smaller producers with lower overheads tipping the playing field against them - i.e. undercutting/undermining their strategy of whacking the price up year on year. 

 

Just a thought.

 

Les

[Gerald Henriksen]

DJ, of the allocated price for a J94, 90 pound, what constitutes the vast majority of the engine. Is it the chassis, the production costs per model or the actual plastic. 

Thanks

 

Wage for Dave?  Interest on loans? Travel costs (going to China wont' be cheap)? Advertising? Profit to fund other models? Profit to hedge against a model that fails to meet expectations? Business taxes? Profit margin for the retailer (the retailer isn't paying £105), cost of shipping (not just from China but also to retailers once the models have arrived in the UK), etc, etc.

 

There is a lot of overhead costs involved in making a model, in addition to the direct costs - research, design, production.

[AMJ]

I think that MSC is gorgeous. That reminds me of when at Middleton we had the Hudswell Clarke locomotive in action in this shade of grey. Looks like I need to order one.

http://www.leedsengine.info/leeds/photo.asp?phby=www.leedsengine.info&photo=/leeds/images/Hudswell%20Clarke/Standard%20Gauge%20Loco/Steam/hc1369%20msc%2067%20middleton%20(3).jpg&loco=Hc1369%20Msc%2067%20Middleton%20(3)

[9402 Fredrick]

I hope it won't be too much longer before we see the artwork for these soon.

[Captain Kernow]

Some great looking new liveries there.

 

Apologies if this has already been asked, but does anyone know what type of motor would physically fit in a DJ Models Austerity chassis, please? I have acquired an unpowered one and it would be nice to get it operational.

 

Many thanks.

[9402 Fredrick]

Some great looking new liveries there.

 

Apologies if this has already been asked, but does anyone know what type of motor would physically fit in a DJ Models Austerity chassis, please? I have acquired an unpowered one and it would be nice to get it operational.

 

Many thanks.

It's a corless with a 6-pin dcc socket in the smokebox.

[Captain Kernow]

It's a corless with a 6-pin dcc socket in the smokebox.

Thanks for that.

 

What I'm after specifically is what the dimensions of a replacement motor would need to be (eg. one from the Mashima range). I'm not particularly bothered about putting a coreless one in, as a decent 'ordinary' motor would do just as well, also I don't need DCC, should that be relevant.

 

Cheers.

Edited August 25, 2017 by Captain Kernow

[stewartingram]

Thanks for that.

 

What I'm after specifically is what the dimensions of a replacement motor would need to be (eg. one from the Mashima range). I'm not particularly bothered about putting a coreless one in, as a decent 'ordinary' motor would do just as well, also I don't need DCC, should that be relevant.

 

Cheers.

 

I like the sound of that. This luddite doesn't like coreless. I'm thinking the same for the J70 from MR/Rapido.

 

Stewart

[John M Upton]

There is an interesting article in the new Hornby Mag about coreless motors, Bachmann extensively tested some locos fitted with coreless motors using feedback controllers and found that there was absolutely no problems whatsoever.

[justin1985]

What's not to like about a coreless motor?

 

Also, any news on the N gauge J94 Dave?

[PMP]

 

The motor (without measuring) looks to be a 6mm diameter coreless motor with length of 15mm. the shaft diameter looks to be 1.5mm. It sits (clipped) in a plastic frame which is an interference fit and has a strap piece over the top of the top of the motor retaining it in place. The worm engages a vertical gear train which then connects to the drive gears linking all three axles together. The chassis works well enough on the flat and climbing a gradient. Unfortunately the chassis is very poor descending any gradient with the smallest of loads either end of the chassis. 

 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ipy7Zn4N5kY&index=2&list=UUPS3Dd1KWPe8KUnbrbzoiYQ

 

In an attempt to solve the 'cogging' problem I've removed the internal gearing from the leading two axles with no detriment to the running with coupling rods fitted https://albionyard.wordpress.com/2017/08/21/removals/ Without the motor attached the chassis is free running on a 3%incline. As soon as the motor is connected the cogging occurs and is worse the slower the chassis runs. Even without coupling rods attached the cogging still occurs on any incline even as slight as 2 degrees, there is a large amount of slack in the gear train either with the original design fit, or just having one axle powered. In case anyone is thinking this must be a problem with this particular model it isn't. I've had seven including mine which exhibit the same trait, as does my Hattons 14XX with a similar design chassis drive train. Removing the internal chassis gears has helped with the 14xx as has replacing the coupling rods.

 

For those that want to, its practical to replace the motor subject making your own mounting. but unless there's a better gear train involved, I doubt there's any value in the exercise unless your layout is flat. 

Edited August 27, 2017 by PMP

[9402 Fredrick]

Hey Dave, have you gotten the color samples to your liking just yet for the 5 new J94s that got announced?

[tomparryharry]

IMG_1085.JPG

 

The motor (without measuring) looks to be a 6mm diameter coreless motor with length of 15mm. the shaft diameter looks to be 1.5mm. It sits (clipped) in a plastic frame which is an interference fit and has a strap piece over the top of the top of the motor retaining it in place. The worm engages a vertical gear train which then connects to the drive gears linking all three axles together. The chassis works well enough on the flat and climbing a gradient. Unfortunately the chassis is very poor descending any gradient with the smallest of loads either end of the chassis. 

 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ipy7Zn4N5kY&index=2&list=UUPS3Dd1KWPe8KUnbrbzoiYQ

 

In an attempt to solve the 'cogging' problem I've removed the internal gearing from the leading two axles with no detriment to the running with coupling rods fitted https://albionyard.wordpress.com/2017/08/21/removals/ Without the motor attached the chassis is free running on a 3%incline. As soon as the motor is connected the cogging occurs and is worse the slower the chassis runs. Even without coupling rods attached the cogging still occurs on any incline even as slight as 2 degrees, there is a large amount of slack in the gear train either with the original design fit, or just having one axle powered. In case anyone is thinking this must be a problem with this particular model it isn't. I've had seven including mine which exhibit the same trait, as does my Hattons 14XX with a similar design chassis drive train. Removing the internal chassis gears has helped with the 14xx as has replacing the coupling rods.

 

For those that want to, its practical to replace the motor subject making your own mounting. but unless there's a better gear train involved, I doubt there's any value in the exercise unless your layout is flat.

May I suggest a slight thought here? I've got a few of these DJM 18" austerities, and so far, no problem. However, it struck me that the vertical gear train is, as you say, 'cogging'. One area that may bear fruit is to re-examine the idler gears within the gear chain proper. If you find a taper across the flats of the major diameter, it might well lead to binding. The major diameter of the gear might want to bind at the root of the minor diameter. This 'might' be caused by the taper of the injection mould process, as the gear train imprint leaves the injection mould. I'd suggest that turning an idler gear from left to right might well help, going on the idea that a major & minor diameter will 'match up', and so reduce binding. That said, it might be a 'gate pip' which is causing all the fuss. Such a problem might be easily solved by using a riffler, or jewellers file on the affected area. Trying either a vernier or mic will(or should) throw up a disparity across the gears, and, as I very nearly forgot, the width of the gear itself. I'd guess there is some 20+ 'gates' in the chassis of a DJM model, and if the QC gets them all out, then DJM should be commended.

 

With all that, I still haven't done mine yet!

 

I hope this helps.

 

Ian

[PMP]

Hi Ian (THP, ) I've had seven of them through the workshop, and the 14xx they all fail to run smoothly on downhill gradients. Having converted my J94 and the 14xx to a single axle drive the problem still persists when under power with the motor, so I doubt the work you propose will give any appreciable improvement. It's certainly not work a purchaser should be doing on a RTR model, least of all one that is so difficult to disassemble.

 

You mention you've not done yours yet, does that mean your locos are showing similar problems in their running.

Edited September 5, 2017 by PMP

[papagolfjuliet]

I'm a bit puzzled by the description of "Antwerp". Does 'unlined maroon' mean the post-refurbishment red with white painted name which it carried during its final years in NCB service and for its first few months on the NYMR, or does it refer to an earlier livery?

[tomparryharry]

Hi Ian (THP, ) I've had seven of them through the workshop, and the 14xx they all fail to run smoothly on downhill gradients. Having converted my J94 and the 14xx to a single axle drive the problem still persists when under power with the motor, so I doubt the work you propose will give any appreciable improvement. It's certainly not work a purchaser should be doing on a RTR model, least of all one that is so difficult to disassemble.

 

You mention you've not done yours yet, does that mean your locos are showing similar problems in their running.

 

Well, I've had 3 of them here. But, as you've mentioned, the cogging is demonstrated on the Youtube videos, and personal postings on the web. My thoughts are an open-minded process to try to alleviate the problem, if I was coming at it from my angle. Something appears to 'bind' when under a compression load, and I might respectfully suggest that the tolerances are too tight, at least, in this instance. With my limited exposure to the model, I would also respectfully suggest that the problem appears to be a hit & miss problem. That initially indicates something like a QC or assembly glitch. More embarrassing than serious. However, it's not normally something an RTR buyer would expect. If I get a chance, I wouldn't mind taking a chassis apart. I just haven't got around to one yet. Out of respect to Dave Jones, should a resolution be found, then an explanatory e-mail should find a way to him. I think he deserves it.

 

When I summon up courage, I'll strip one down!

 

Oh! Forgot! My shunting puzzle is mostly 'flat'. I intended that way. I don't want the little bu**ers running away too far....

 

Hope this helps,

 

Ian

[PMP]

Ian, I very much doubt it's a QC/assembly issue as the locos tested are two different types 14xx/j94 and the J94's came from at least two batches. There's a very easy test to do, a yard of flexi track on a batten raised an inch or so one end. Then place an open wagon filled with a few weights/coins coupled to the loco and see what happens when it descends. Be interesting to see a video of it, people have either only filmed them on the flat, or climbing. I did previously ask someone to post a descending video, to compare to my experience but none has appeared.

 

Edit: I too would love to alleviate the running problems but I'm coming to the opinion that a different drive design is required, or needs to be significantly improved if the models are to be used on layouts with any gradients.

Edited September 6, 2017 by PMP

[tomparryharry]

Ian, I very much doubt it's a QC/assembly issue as the locos tested are two different types 14xx/j94 and the J94's came from at least two batches. There's a very easy test to do, a yard of flexi track on a batten raised an inch or so one end. Then place an open wagon filled with a few weights/coins coupled to the loco and see what happens when it descends. Be interesting to see a video of it, people have either only filmed them on the flat, or climbing. I did previously ask someone to post a descending video, to compare to my experience but none has appeared.

 

Edit: I too would love to alleviate the running problems but I'm coming to the opinion that a different drive design is required, or needs to be significantly improved if the models are to be used on layouts with any gradients.

Many thanks. I'll try to replicate your incline over the weekend. I did view your video descending with an autocoach.

Edited September 7, 2017 by tomparryharry

[JSpencer]

Well, I've had 3 of them here. But, as you've mentioned, the cogging is demonstrated on the Youtube videos, and personal postings on the web. My thoughts are an open-minded process to try to alleviate the problem, if I was coming at it from my angle. Something appears to 'bind' when under a compression load, and I might respectfully suggest that the tolerances are too tight, at least, in this instance. With my limited exposure to the model, I would also respectfully suggest that the problem appears to be a hit & miss problem. That initially indicates something like a QC or assembly glitch. More embarrassing than serious. However, it's not normally something an RTR buyer would expect. If I get a chance, I wouldn't mind taking a chassis apart. I just haven't got around to one yet. Out of respect to Dave Jones, should a resolution be found, then an explanatory e-mail should find a way to him. I think he deserves it.

 

When I summon up courage, I'll strip one down!

 

Oh! Forgot! My shunting puzzle is mostly 'flat'. I intended that way. I don't want the little bu**ers running away too far....

 

Hope this helps,

 

Ian

 

In a nutshell, the top gear gets jammed against the worm as it comes down hill with a load. IMHO the cure can be any one of three below:

1/ Replace motor with a bigger motor (this might not work)

2/ Add a flywheel

3/ replace worm and gear with bevel gears (ala portescap)

4/ soften the angle of the worm teeth and use a bigger top gear (ala Wrenn/Dublo)

(5/ avoid declines!)

 

There is space inside.

 

Is is possible that there may be a lubricant which prevents these parts from sticking as well (American model railroads have such a lubricant - but the name escapes me).

Edited September 7, 2017 by JSpencer

[Jim76]

What time period would the MSC model be good for? Jim