GWR coach formations

[Adrian Wintle]

Might it have been a Siphon J, which had ice compartments, for some sort of perishable traffic. I can't imagine them putting a Mica at the head of a passenger train. Siphon Js were used for this sort of traffic from Fishguard, coupled to the boat trains.

 

Quite likely. 'Van' in GWR context often means 'bogie van', as full brakes were 'vans' or 'brake vans' in the working programs.

 

Adrian

[chrisf]

If you are just looking for typical formations rather than specific ones, I put together a list of ideas that I culled from the 1951 Bristol Carriage Working Plan. Although post-nationalisation, I suspect that most of the formations and the stock were still firmly GWR in origin.

 

http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/84395-sample-wr-train-formations-from-the-age-of-steam/

 

There were very few BR standard coaches in 1951 apart from those in the Festival of Britain trains, so yes!

 

Chris 

[Pacific231G]

There were very few BR standard coaches in 1951 apart from those in the Festival of Britain trains, so yes!

 

Chris 

By when would BR standard coaches (Mk1s presumably) have formed the majority of the stock you'd encounter on a "typical" main line working? The Mk 1 coaches I encounter on most preserved line seem fairly similar to what I remember from loco hauled trains around the end of steam in the 1960s but my much vaguer memories of the late 1950s are of much older coaches.

[Karhedron]

It was a slow transition, particularly on the WR where older stock (particularly catering vehicles) hung on in front line service until around 1961 IIRC.

 

The closest answer I can give from my own flicking through photo albums is a nice shot of the Bristolian in 1954 formed primarily of Hawksworth coaches. There is a shot of the same service in 1956 and Mk1 coaches are now in the majority. I model on the basis that the mid-50s were the tipping point between pre-nat and Mk1 domination on the principle expresses.

 

As I say, some older stock hung, even on the crack expresses. Less prestigous services were often mostly GWR designs well into the 60s. Look at photos of cross country lines such as the Fairford branch and services around Hereford.

[Marshall5]

I spent a lot of time on the Cambrian Coast and Ruabon - Barmouth lines between 1960 and 1965. In the early 60's only the Cambrian Coast Express would be formed of Mk1's all others being ex GWR Collett or Hawksworth stock.  By 1964/5 the LMR had cascaded more Mk1's to the area but only for a short time until the DMU's took over.  It may well have been different in other areas but that's how I remember it.

Cheers,

Ray.

[chrisf]

To amplify Karhedron's point above, it is always a good idea to look at photos.  Some very interesting precedents may be seen if one looks carefully!

 

The Bristolian had received Mk 1s by the winter of 1956-57, except for the buffet car.  I'm guessing that the re-equipment coincided with the introduction of chocolate and cream livery.  At this time the Mk 1 catering vehicle was a rare species, comprising the cumbersome triplet RFO-RK-RSO combos [which turned out to be a gross overprovision] and, on the WR, the five RKF-RSOs.  Until the RU and RB came along, therefore, the Western had to make do with what the GWR had built, so quite a number also acquired chocolate and cream.

 

Helpfully, the carriage working programmes show clearly which vehicles were booked to be Mk 1s, which were not and which were to have adaptors to connect one to the other.  It will not come as a surprise that the older stock was trotted out on summer Saturdays but it may raise the odd eyebrow that some MK 1 stock was formed from new into excursion sets which clearly did not see daily use.

 

Chris

[Pacific231G]

 

It was a slow transition, particularly on the WR where older stock (particularly catering vehicles) hung on in front line service until around 1961 IIRC.

 

The closest answer I can give from my own flicking through photo albums is a nice shot of the Bristolian in 1954 formed primarily of Hawksworth coaches. There is a shot of the same service in 1956 and Mk1 coaches are now in the majority. I model on the basis that the mid-50s were the tipping point between pre-nat and Mk1 domination on the principle expresses.

 

As I say, some older stock hung, even on the crack expresses. Less prestigous services were often mostly GWR designs well into the 60s. Look at photos of cross country lines such as the Fairford branch and services around Hereford.

 

Not too far into the 1960s for the Fairford branch unfortunately

There's a rather nice amateur film of the Fairford Branch in 1961 here https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Rb8_wC9OcDY with a pannier tank pulling two definitely not Mk 1 coaches. The same person made another film of the last passenger train on the branch in June 1962 but this time the train had four coaches. I couldn't identify them but with the exception of the brake second I'm pretty sure they're all pre BR designs. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t44mIi8ABjs

 

Thanks for responding to my question about the type of coaches I was travelling on during the last two or three years of steam around Oxford. Most of them would have been Mk1s though I did encounter older types from time to time. I remember a packed two coach train from Banbury to Woodford-Halse on market day not long before the line shut and those coaches were definitely older as I think were some of the Southern coaches on the Bournemouth trains.

[chrisf]

I did a quick analysis of the summer 1954 WR cwp today.  It came as a surprise to me that such prestigious trains as the Cornish Riviera and the Bristolian had yet to receive their Mk 1s at this time.  The Riviera had a long tradition of being first in line for new stock when it became available: it was one of the first to get chocolate and cream stock in 1956 and got a set of mostly new chocolate and cream stock a few years later.  When choc-cream was abandoned in 1962 the Riviera acquired a pair of new sets in maroon.

 

Inn 1954 there were very few complete sets of Mk 1 stock.  A notable example was the Inter-City set which worked the 9.0 am Paddington - Wolverhampton and 4.35 pm back on Mondays to Fridays but on Saturdays was used for the 10.35 am Paddington - Penzance, returning at 11.0 am on Sundays.  This set was even booked a MK 1 catering vehicle which must have been one of the five kitchen firsts.  The Torbay Express was formed of Mk 1 stock except for a GW dining car while the Red Dragon had a complete set including a kitchen first coupled to a restaurant open third, later replaced by a GW dining pair, possibly around the time it went chocolate and cream in 1956.  The 7.25 am Wolverhampton - Paddington and 5.10 pm back was also completely Mk 1, including one of the triplet catering sets with full kitchen car.  A few cross-country trains including the Cornishman had full Mk 1 sets.  Other trains had a handful of Mk 1 coaches in their formation amid a preponderance of GW stock.

 

Isn't that interesting!

 

Chris

[Coach bogie]

 

 

In 1954 there were very few complete sets of Mk 1 stock.  A notable example was the Inter-City set which worked the 9.0 am Paddington - Wolverhampton and 4.35 pm back on Mondays to Fridays but on Saturdays was used for the 10.35 am Paddington - Penzance, returning at 11.0 am on Sundays.  This set was even booked a MK 1 catering vehicle which must have been one of the five kitchen firsts.

 

Isn't that interesting!

 

Chris

 

I keep coming back to what was planned and what happened often are different for a variety of reasons.

 

I was looking through the Blenkinsop books for something else and came across the many views of the Intercity he took. on 2/9/55 the 70ft EX GWR diner was back.

 

What must be a fairly new mark 1 dining pair appeared in the 18:00 Birmingham Paddington as coaches 3+4 in a set of mixed ex GWR stock 23/4/53. Same train a year later similar dining pair coaches 2+3 in a similar set of mixed ex GWR stock 19/7/54

The 17:10 pm Paddington -Wolverhampton  completely Mk 1, including one of the triplet catering sets with full kitchen car but on 25/7/55 the wider body and truss rodding of the ex GWR kitchen car can be clearly seen.

 

I used to think the mark era was less interesting, Clearly not

 

Mike Wiltshire

[Edwardian]

Going back a few posts, I understood that the "Ref" in "Ref Van" referred to "Hotels and Refreshment Department". They carried the hotel linen.

 

Diagram K12, ex Royal train brakes, were used as Ref vans, so, rather delightfully, you get to model a coach with the sloping clerestory ends, unique to the Royal train so far as the GW was concerned. 

 

There is a picture of a K12 as lead vehicle on the 9.15 am Paddington to Taunton in 1935 in volume 2 of Geen & Scott, The Great Western Railway in the 1930s[i/], plate142.  The caption has this as number 1069, though I suspect it may have been number 1070, as I think that according to the Register 1069 was in use as a stores van on the Central Wales circuit by this time. 

 

Cross-referencing this with my winter '32-33 working timetable, I note that the 9.15 WoE express to Taunton does, indeed, feature a "Ref Van" as the lead vehicle (on Tuesdays only). Sometimes the vehicle (and from the workings it is clearly the same vehicle) is referred to as "Ref Dept. Van".  Most entries show it as marked as non-gangwayed, though this is omitted in the case of the 9.15 entry.

 

If the van pictured in Geen & Scott is number 1070, I understand that, according to the Register, this vehicle had the gangways removed in 1932. 

[Coach bogie]

 

 

Diagram K12, ex Royal train brakes, were used as Ref vans, so, rather delightfully, you get to model a coach with the sloping clerestory ends, unique to the Royal train so far as the GW was concerned. 

 

Not quite unique. There were other GWR diagram clerestory vehicles with the sloping ends, including the Dynamometer car, directors saloon 249. a H2/7 diner and for some strange reason, an E73 compo.

 

Mike Wiltshire

[Edwardian]

Thanks. "Rare and distinctive" might have been more on the mark.  I wonder whether any of the other diagrams you mention were still running in the '30s; variety being the spice and all.

[Coach bogie]

Thanks. "Rare and distinctive" might have been more on the mark.  I wonder whether any of the other diagrams you mention were still running in the '30s; variety being the spice and all.

H7 no 9519 was in service until 2/5/36. The body still existed a few years back in Berkshire. The GWR Registers have written “Roof made to turn under similar to Royals” with the date August 1912.

 

The E73 no 7412 was still around in the 1930's, from the few photographs taken.

 

The Dyno and 249 survived through BR to the present day.

 

https://www.google.co.uk/search?q=south+devon+railway+coaches&biw=1920&bih=922&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ved=0CAYQ_AUoAWoVChMIjuTh_M-TxgIV6qHbCh37aQBL#imgrc=EEAYSY7zbf_qBM%253A%3BT4eCAB8z9HAnxM%3Bhttp%253A%252F%252Fwww.cornwallrailwaysociety.org.uk%252Fuploads%252F7%252F6%252F8%252F3%252F7683812%252F3723312_orig.jpg%3Bhttp%253A%252F%252Fwww.cornwallrailwaysociety.org.uk%252Fheadlines---latest-reports-and-photographs%252Fmince-pie-specials-on-1st-january-2015-at-the-south-devon-railway-extended-from-the-christmas-period-into-the-new-year%3B1100%3B733

 

Mike Wiltshire

[Edwardian]

OK, here is the Ref Van on the 9.15 TO Paddington - Taunton.  It is edited from the picture in Geen & Scott, Great Western in the 1930s, vol 2, plate 142:

 

[rovex]

Just to try and keep things together, there are some useful posts on coach formations in the right hand/left hand thread and also some good stuff  in the Hornby's new Collett thread

 

which casual readers may wish to read.

[The Stationmaster]

The forward working of the Ref Van was the "3.56 pm Taunton to Plymouth".  [NB I read this in the 1948 cwp as I am not old enough to remember it first hand.]  I put this in quotes because I suspect that the train originated somewhere up country and was not a humble stopper.

 

Chris

I've now found (while looking for something else of course!) that in the 1946/47  CWP it is shown as being attached at Taunton to the 09.13 Manchester - Plymouth North Road, which - for some added variety - put it at the head of a train of LM&SR coaches. 

[robertcwp]

I don't recall seeing any photos of The Inter-City with a Mark I Diag 16 RF in the formation so the reference to a BR Standard catering car in the carriage workings might have been an error, something planned which was not implemented or a short-lived working before reverting to a GWR car as the early BR ones were not popular with the catering staff.

 

From photos and carriage workings combined, it is evident that The Bristolian went back to Hawksworth stock (with GWR buffet) having been a BR Standard set (again with GWR buffet) in the early 1950, then went back to BR Standard apart from the buffet car, either when it went chocolate and cream or before then.  It didn't become a full Mark I set until 1961, with RB W1646, which was repainted chocolate and cream to go into the set.

 

Some good points made above about the limitations of carriage working books. I have some copies of WR books in my collection which are festooned with amendments and that does not include temporary changes. To gain a real picture, you need a combination of the carriage workings and lots of photos but need to keep in mind the point noted above about many photos being taken on Saturdays when things were often different to the Monday-Friday workings.  Many workings differed between Summer and Winter too.

[Edwardian]

Three for Rovex:

 

Top left (I hope) is a 4-coach train, at Bovey Tracey on the Moretonhampstead branch in the mid-'20s.  Classic GW branch, and not an auto-coach in sight.  Motive power is a small Prairie.  Is it a set?  Well the lead coach does not appear to be a brake vehicle, so maybe not.  Unless the dirt is so deep as to result in a uniform grime, I would guess that these coaches are in WW1 overall brown.  Seldom modelled.  I note also that the guard's lookout has been removed from the coach nearest the camera.  Never say "ducket", by the way; this is the Great Western and we do not use such common words.  Note also that the foot boards have been removed from the bogies of the middle two coaches. 

 

Top right is the 'M' Set you mention - The loco is 4906, Bradfield Hall.  The location is the famous sea wall section in Devon.  The date is given as c. 1930.  Livery is hard to make out, but the second coach, which has footboards still, certainly seems to be in chocolate and cream.

 

Bottom we have an 'E' Set according to the caption, and, so, ought to have a Brake Compo (which would seem to be the lead vehicle), Lav. Third and Van Third.  The Great Western didn't call them 'Brake Thirds'; that too is common!  The location is Kingswear and the date is given as c. 1936.  The locomotive, 4943, Marrington Hall, was apparently only based locally in 1936-7, helping to date the photograph.  The tender carries the 'shirtbutton' monogram (introduced during 1934), though it looks to me that the lamp body is still red (they changed to white starting in 1936).

 

All three images are found in the admirable The Great Western in South Devon by Beck and Copsey.  

[rovex]

Thanks Edwardian. Interesting to see that even in the thirties there were a large number of clerestories in service. My layout, when the trains finally run will be set in the first few years post nationalization but even then the odd clerestory could still be seen and I intend to have one in WW2 livery.

 

Dean

[Mad_Hatter]

Interesting the top photo where the guard lookout has been removed and plated over, mock panels had been painted onto the metal plate so more like in Maroon than brown. The last coach could be a D14 and the next coach C10 next one E62? as this one is the wider 8'6" against the back two which are the early 8'0" wide. The first coach is one with deeper top mouldings ex broad gauge conversion? so anybody with any ideas.

[Edwardian]

Mad Hatter, thanks; I have not had a chance to cross reference these pictures in an attempt to identify diagrams.

 

Yes, that 'ghost' panelling had me puzzled and I suspect you may be onto something because that would not be a feature of the wartime livery, I would imagine.  I've never seen this done before. Are you referring to Lake, from before WW1?  Would they have removed and sheeted over a lookout quite that early?

[Coach bogie]

Bottom we have an 'E' Set according to the caption, and, so, ought to have a Brake Compo (which would seem to be the lead vehicle), Lav. Third and Van Third.

 

The front coach in the bottom shot was built as a brake tri-compo with 1st, second, and third class compartments. By this time the seconds had become thirds. It was one of six built to E75 for use off the system, working cross country trains. I would suggest, being near the end of its' career, it is being used on local duties, with modern steel sided stock in use on the cross country services.

 

Mike Wiltshire

[Edwardian]

That makes perfect sense, as the window spacing would seem to indicate 3 different classes as built.  Thanks for the diagram.

[Mad_Hatter]

The D14 when they had the guard lookout removed were called D76 and looking at an old Slater's kit instructions Coach No 2961 was converted in 08/22 and 2968 11/22 as it is steel sheet it will be most likely post war conversion and these two are the first ones listed to be done who could have been repainted in 1912 Lake and old coaches like this most likely used up the old paint and as the lining on the coach shows up there will be a great chance this coach will have been fairly resonantly repainted.

[County of Yorkshire]

What livery would clerestory survivors in the 1945-1948 period have been found in? I have a second hand kit/scratch-built C17, E73, D30 & D31 set that I want to repaint. Am I right in saying that clerestory's were put into NPCCS brown (as siphons etc) in the mid to late 1930's that saw them through until they were condemned? Indeed, are the following three coaches in NPCCS brown, or was it a bespoke brown hue?

 

http://www.warwickshirerailways.com/gwr/gwrbsh1368.htm

http://www.warwickshirerailways.com/gwr/gwrbsh2495.htm

http://www.warwickshirerailways.com/gwr/gwrbsh2494.htm

 

If not, I assume many may have made it to nationalisation in brown and cream shirtbutton or indeed perhaps GWR wartime orange/brown?

 

Moreover, does anyone know if suitable bogies for my above 4 diagrams, together with a complete under-frame set, is currently available from any quarter?

 

Any insight would be welcome.

 

Thanks, 

 

CoY