Warship in 7mm

[brian daniels]

This what your after on D821?

[CME and Bottlewasher]

http://fox-transfers.co.uk/early-diesel-electric-livery-d-e-numbering-65650

 

I haven't found a good top view of the fan but the DJH kit version is the same as Heljans

Hi Steve,

 

That's very kind of you - thank you.

 

When things quieten down here I shall get some on order.

 

Kindest regards,

 

CME

 

This what your after on D821?

Wow great shot Brian, thanks so much for that - hopefully that will help others too.

 

Im guessing that the 'mesh' on the MLI drawings was merely an artist's representation or a draughtsman's statement of intent as opposed to the reality on/of the prototype.

 

Kindest regards, with many thanks.

 

CME

[djmarsay]

How much power does the Warship need, and how much space is there for batteries? E.g., is there space for 9 AAAs (1.2v each) and would they be able to start a light (e.g. 2kg) train on a moderate slope (e.g. 1:50)? I would like an RC version for a garden railway.

 

(Sorry if anyone has answered this, but I'm getting lost around this forum.)

[John Tomlinson]

How much power does the Warship need, and how much space is there for batteries? E.g., is there space for 9 AAAs (1.2v each) and would they be able to start a light (e.g. 2kg) train on a moderate slope (e.g. 1:50)? I would like an RC version for a garden railway.

 

(Sorry if anyone has answered this, but I'm getting lost around this forum.)

A very interesting question. Something in the back of my mind says these locos weigh around 2kg themselves - I don't have anything to weigh mine on accurately to check. If so you'd perhaps need some more power, and I thought the rechargeable Lithium batteries of the type used for example in my hedge trimmer might be the way to go.

 

John.

[djmarsay]

A very interesting question. Something in the back of my mind says these locos weigh around 2kg themselves - I don't have anything to weigh mine on accurately to check. If so you'd perhaps need some more power, and I thought the rechargeable Lithium batteries of the type used for example in my hedge trimmer might be the way to go.

 

John.

I have a home-brew Hymek weighing 3kg and with an inefficient Cardan shaft that works fine on AAAs, but I am really thinking of the rest of the train weighing 2kg. (I.e. plastic). Obviously more would be good, but I would still be tempted at 2kg. It seems to me that the ability to start on a hill is the critical thing. Would it require the full 12V? Or start to crawl by 9V at most?

 

I had thought Lithium would be the way to go when I started, but so far AAA or AA have been more flexible in space. And they are a bit less scary to use. But does anyone know what space there is for batteries?

 

Ta.

[CME and Bottlewasher]

I have a home-brew Hymek weighing 3kg and with an inefficient Cardan shaft that works fine on AAAs, but I am really thinking of the rest of the train weighing 2kg. (I.e. plastic). Obviously more would be good, but I would still be tempted at 2kg. It seems to me that the ability to start on a hill is the critical thing. Would it require the full 12V? Or start to crawl by 9V at most?

 

I had thought Lithium would be the way to go when I started, but so far AAA or AA have been more flexible in space. And they are a bit less scary to use. But does anyone know what space there is for batteries?

 

Ta.

Hi,

 

Lots of interesting thoughts and comments.

 

Looking at the Heljan Warship, you would need to throw away or sell on lots of mechanical aspects of the model. The motors and gears are not all that efficient and being a Bo Bo ie size, plus the gear-shafts, motors etc etc doesnt leave a lot of room for batteries if the loco is left as is. Beware also if using a Lithium battery not specifically designed for the job, then, with overload etc the whole lot could go up in smoke! Again a change of motors and gears would be prudent.

 

In terms of new/modified bogies then I would be inclined to add roller-bearings and as for stock, PTFE bearings - but if machining PTFE beware as I understand that it can be toxic when worked - PTFE bearings in stock make work for the loco/engine almost as if its 'light-engine'. The clockwork brigade started to use PTFE bearings to increase running time and reduce drag etc.

 

As I have written before, with 30 years experience, no scrub that, eeeek!, 40 year of experience   of RC in other types of model and 14 years of our H&BLR which is live steam RC and battery RC, I would go RC throughout on Down Ampney, but having Heljan Locos means that one has to have DCC/DC and RC, unless junking a lot of the mechanics of a Heljan loco, with a need for battery space - limited, as are run times - means that a standard Heljan loco is no really all that viable for RC! The Warship appears worse in this regard also. Hopefully the Heljan locos - when fitted with Heljan's improved replacement gears - are smooth and reliable runners on DC/DCC in the longer term, if not then re-gearing and re-motoring may provide a more robust model that then also has room for RC and batteries. But that could be costly and hard work.

 

You could look for the ex 'el-crappo' Warship body in resin (it takes a lot of fettling to get it right) and thus have a battery powered RC loco that way, they still seem to be available, but buyer beware, choose carefully.

 

We hope to have two Class 33's and a Hymek RC in the not too distant future using Steve Leyland's RC system - these will be the old Lima's and Triang locos fettled to within a inch of there lives to look, as far as is practically possible, as good as they can with the advantage of being RC (which then enables quick set up and running, when there is 10 mins to spare but no time to clean garden based track-work). So what I am saying is, at this point in time, RC is a compromise. I love RC yet as the world of model railways, in the popular scales, in terms of manufacturers, who had, until recently largely ignored RC, we have to do a lot of fettling to get RC to fit and work.

 

Some think that RC locos in 7mm are easy as one has more space, the same for smaller locos in SM32, BUT its all relative, with juicy power hungry motors and in Heljans case relatively inefficient extended gear-sets (the Class 40 is a doozy in that regard).

 

Although we have a fair few Heljan locos on our roster I have always thought that the Heljan gearing and power-hungry motors, whilst being smooth runners, were a chore. If ingenious enough, in other industries and walks of life, there are some very efficient and cost effective motors and gearboxes that are often found fitted to SM32 locos - in this regard I cant help but feel, that even with cottage industry worm drive gears/gearboxes/motors that are on offer (some of which are very good and not too expensive), in this scale and gauge we are missing a trick or two?

 

There is also another issue - battery quality. Even for standardised AA or 9V types, the quality, longevity etc of these types has fallen in recent years as their country of manufacture has changed - so one has to source such carefully.

 

I hope that helps a little.

 

Kind regards,

 

CME

 

PS There are some reviews appearing in the mainstream mags with cutaway type photos of the Heljan Warship - unless someone here can provide a similar photo - I would suggest that you have a scan through to gauge how little space there is in the Warship for batteries and RC gear. Sometimes if an early bird at Telford (Ive never been lucky enough LOL!) Heljan sell off bodies etc - that would be a better starting point than the 'el-crappo' version?

Edited June 18, 2016 by CME and Bottlewasher

[djmarsay]

Hi,

 

Lots of interesting thoughts and comments.

 

Looking at the Heljan Warship, you would need to throw away or sell on lots of mechanical aspects of the model. The motors and gears are not all that efficient and being a Bo Bo ie size, plus the gear-shafts, motors etc etc doesnt leave a lot of room for batteries if the loco is left as is. Beware also if using a Lithium battery not specifically designed for the job, then, with overload etc the whole lot could go up in smoke! Again a change of motors and gears would be prudent.

 

In terms of new/modified bogies then I would be inclined to add roller-bearings and as for stock, PTFE bearings - but if machining PTFE beware as I understand that it can be toxic when worked - PTFE bearings in stock make work for the loco/engine almost as if its 'light-engine'. The clockwork brigade started to use PTFE bearings to increase running time and reduce drag etc.

 

As I have written before, with 30 years experience, no scrub that, eeeek!, 40 year of experience   of RC in other types of model and 14 years of our H&BLR which is live steam RC and battery RC, I would go RC throughout on Down Ampney, but having Heljan Locos means that one has to have DCC/DC and RC, unless junking a lot of the mechanics of a Heljan loco, with a need for battery space - limited, as are run times - means that a standard Heljan loco is no really all that viable for RC! The Warship appears worse in this regard also. Hopefully the Heljan locos - when fitted with Heljan's improved replacement gears - are smooth and reliable runners on DC/DCC in the longer term, if not then re-gearing and re-motoring may provide a more robust model that then also has room for RC and batteries. But that could be costly and hard work.

 

You could look for the ex 'el-crappo' Warship body in resin (it takes a lot of fettling to get it right) and thus have a battery powered RC loco that way, they still seem to be available, but buyer beware, choose carefully.

 

We hope to have two Class 33's and a Hymek RC in the not too distant future using Steve Leyland's RC system - these will be the old Lima's and Triang locos fettled to within a inch of there lives to look, as far as is practically possible, as good as they can with the advantage of being RC (which then enables quick set up and running, when there is 10 mins to spare but no time to clean garden based track-work). So what I am saying is, at this point in time, RC is a compromise. I love RC yet as the world of model railways, in the popular scales, in terms of manufacturers, who had, until recently largely ignored RC, we have to do a lot of fettling to get RC to fit and work.

 

Some think that RC locos in 7mm are easy as one has more space, the same for smaller locos in SM32, BUT its all relative, with juicy power hungry motors and in Heljans case relatively inefficient extended gear-sets (the Class 40 is a doozy in that regard).

 

Although we have a fair few Heljan locos on our roster I have always thought that the Heljan gearing and power-hungry motors, whilst being smooth runners, were a chore. If ingenious enough, in other industries and walks of life, there are some very efficient and cost effective motors and gearboxes that are often found fitted to SM32 locos - in this regard I cant help but feel, that even with cottage industry worm drive gears/gearboxes/motors that are on offer (some of which are very good and not too expensive), in this scale and gauge we are missing a trick or two?

 

There is also another issue - battery quality. Even for standardised AA or 9V types, the quality, longevity etc of these types has fallen in recent years as their country of manufacture has changed - so one has to source such carefully.

 

I hope that helps a little.

 

Kind regards,

 

CME

 

PS There are some reviews appearing in the mainstream mags with cutaway type photos of the Heljan Warship - unless someone here can provide a similar photo - I would suggest that you have a scan through to gauge how little space there is in the Warship for batteries and RC gear. Sometimes if an early bird at Telford (Ive never been lucky enough LOL!) Heljan sell off bodies etc - that would be a better starting point than the 'el-crappo' version?

Thanks. I gather that the Heljan locos aren't just a little bit inefficient. Pity. One option would be to have a battery van or coach behind the loco, connected by wires. Not for purists and a bit of a faff to run. I shall have to ponder. 

[CME and Bottlewasher]

Thanks. I gather that the Heljan locos aren't just a little bit inefficient. Pity. One option would be to have a battery van or coach behind the loco, connected by wires. Not for purists and a bit of a faff to run. I shall have to ponder. 

You are most welcome.

 

Yes, I never liked the idea of a battery van/coach even in SM32 - which we take less seriously as light relief from 'scale' modelling - its a shame really that Heljan locos cant accommodate RC from the get-go. The Heljan locos are an injection moulded 'Airfix' kit of parts, which Heljan add value to by assembling and painting etc to make a profit. When working (ie not faulty) Heljan locos run well, but Im guessing that wholesale the motors and complex gear trains that they use are cheap and thus are inefficient and 'power hungry' (ie the same performance can only be gained from precision, efficient gearboxes using smaller more efficient motors = higher costs and less profits for Heljan, depending on your POV). In addition the Warship's seem crammed full with only space for a decoder as supplied/as bought.

 

Kindest regards,

 

CME

Edited June 22, 2016 by CME and Bottlewasher

[John Tomlinson]

You are most welcome.

 

Yes, I never liked the idea of a battery van/coach even in SM32 - which we take less seriously as light relief from 'scale' modelling - its a shame really that Heljan locos cant accommodate RC from the get-go. The Heljan locos are an injection moulded 'Airfix' kit of parts, which Heljan add value to by assembling and painting etc to make a profit. When working (ie not faulty) Heljan locos run well, but Im guessing that wholesale the motors and complex gear trains that they use are cheap and thus are inefficient and 'power hungry' (ie the same performance can only be gained from precision, efficient gearboxes using smaller more efficient motors = higher costs and less profits for Heljan, depending on your POV). In addition the Warship's seem crammed full with only space for a decoder as supplied/as bought.

 

Kindest regards,

 

CME

This is very interesting, as was your previous post about RC.

 

It seems odd to think of a £500 loco as in a sense "cheap", but of course compared to the full cost of parts (including wheels, motor and gears) for the likes of a Waterman kit, it is just that. I'm guessing a bit, but the cost of the finished Heljan item must be around two thirds that of the JLTRT full set of parts, which you then have to build to a comparable standard of running and finish.

 

In my own case I've acquired a few of the Heljan locos with the intention of a future project (yes, I know we've all heard that before), but would have to consider them good value despite the reservations on the engineering side. My loft scheme would place little strain on their mechanics as they stand, and having taken one or two to bits they are similar to the Heljan 4mm locos in gear design with a worm on the motor driving a longish chain of nylon(?) cogs to the axles. What your comments have shown is that going RC/ Battery with them might well be very problematic, whereas should I go for kit-built I would have a lot more flexiblity in choosing components to make RC/ Battery more feasible.

 

Many thanks,

 

John.

[CME and Bottlewasher]

This is very interesting, as was your previous post about RC.

 

It seems odd to think of a £500 loco as in a sense "cheap", but of course compared to the full cost of parts (including wheels, motor and gears) for the likes of a Waterman kit, it is just that. I'm guessing a bit, but the cost of the finished Heljan item must be around two thirds that of the JLTRT full set of parts, which you then have to build to a comparable standard of running and finish.

 

In my own case I've acquired a few of the Heljan locos with the intention of a future project (yes, I know we've all heard that before), but would have to consider them good value despite the reservations on the engineering side. My loft scheme would place little strain on their mechanics as they stand, and having taken one or two to bits they are similar to the Heljan 4mm locos in gear design with a worm on the motor driving a longish chain of nylon(?) cogs to the axles. What your comments have shown is that going RC/ Battery with them might well be very problematic, whereas should I go for kit-built I would have a lot more flexiblity in choosing components to make RC/ Battery more feasible.

 

Many thanks,

 

John.

Hi John,

 

Thanks for the kind words - I too have a small fleet of Heljan locos, especially Hymeks (wish that I had procured another, this time in BFYE, that was, at the time less than £200! Im still kicking myself - even dad brought up the subject other day, which made me kick myself again - still debating whether or not I would have preferred a BFYE over my GFYE, on a WR branch/trunk line layout one can never have too many Hymeks?! Mind you they are 'collectors pieces' now, so may be worth selling on LOL!!

 

Your thinking is akin to my own thinking, although Steve Leyland has converted (and future proofed?) a Heljan Class 31

 

http://www.redarrowcontrol.co.uk/conversionexampl.html

 

Mind you, cheap is cheap, I prefer; cost effective or VFM. In 7mm; Dapol, Minerva, Ixion are VFM.....Heljan's prices WERE VFM (ie early locos, like the Hymek releases) but they have been steadily climbing in these austere times. The tooling IS/can be expensive for injection moulding, but I suspect Heljan are still making a good margin (arguably such keeps them in business and thus creating new models year after year).

 

Remember that with a kit, especially a JLTRT loco, they're very light and can have just one good quality motor and gearbox for the majority of layouts/usage - so quality at a VFM price? My Class 33's will only have one motor and gearbox as our layout is a branch off of a trunk-line. The Heljan set up is overkill for Down Ampney and we have had to beef-up the baseboards to accommodate the extra weight! LOL!

 

Kindest regards,

 

CME

 

Edit; chatting to others this evening it seems that Heljans do clock up good mileage and run smoothly on DC and DCC - we are lucky these days to be able to pay the money and have the choice, ie between Heljan and JLTRT.

Edited June 23, 2016 by CME and Bottlewasher

[MRFIXIT99]

Just got my Warship, WOW I'm a happy bunny

[Phill Dyson (onslaught832)]

 

You could look for the ex 'el-crappo' Warship body in resin (it takes a lot of fettling to get it right) and thus have a battery powered RC loco that way, they still seem to be available, but buyer beware, choose carefully.

 

We hope to have two Class 33's and a Hymek RC in the not too distant future using Steve Leyland's RC system - these will be the old Lima's and Triang locos fettled to within a inch of there lives to look, as far as is practically possible, as good as they can with the advantage of being RC (which then enables quick set up and running, when there is 10 mins to spare but no time to clean garden based track-work). So what I am saying is, at this point in time, RC is a compromise. I love RC yet as the world of model railways, in the popular scales, in terms of manufacturers, who had, until recently largely ignored RC, we have to do a lot of fettling to get RC to fit and work.

 

Some think that RC locos in 7mm are easy as one has more space, the same for smaller locos in SM32, BUT its all relative, with juicy power hungry motors and in Heljans case relatively inefficient extended gear-sets (the Class 40 is a doozy in that regard).

 

Although we have a fair few Heljan locos on our roster I have always thought that the Heljan gearing and power-hungry motors, whilst being smooth runners, were a chore. If ingenious enough, in other industries and walks of life, there are some very efficient and cost effective motors and gearboxes that are often found fitted to SM32 locos - in this regard I cant help but feel, that even with cottage industry worm drive gears/gearboxes/motors that are on offer (some of which are very good and not too expensive), in this scale and gauge we are missing a trick or two?

 

There is also another issue - battery quality. Even for standardised AA or 9V types, the quality, longevity etc of these types has fallen in recent years as their country of manufacture has changed - so one has to source such carefully.

 

I hope that helps a little.

 

Kind regards,

 

CME

 

PS There are some reviews appearing in the mainstream mags with cutaway type photos of the Heljan Warship - unless someone here can provide a similar photo - I would suggest that you have a scan through to gauge how little space there is in the Warship for batteries and RC gear. Sometimes if an early bird at Telford (Ive never been lucky enough LOL!) Heljan sell off bodies etc - that would be a better starting point than the 'el-crappo' version?

Did El-Crapo ever produce a Warship CME?

 

Would it be viable to R/C Heljan loco's simply by using one power bogie? .......this would create a lot more space & these loco's are over powered anyway, so single motor bogie should not cause any problems.

[Phill Dyson (onslaught832)]

This what your after on D821?

832 has North British versions fitted if it's any help?

 

Edited June 27, 2016 by Phill Dyson (onslaught832)

[CME and Bottlewasher]

Did El-Crapo ever produce a Warship CME?

 

Would it be viable to R/C Heljan loco's simply by using one power bogie? .......this would create a lot more space & these loco's are over powered anyway, so single motor bogie should not cause any problems.

Hi Phill,

 

Thanks for Posting and thanks for the photo.

 

I thought is was originally El-Crappo (they did most types including a rough Class 22).....certainly some challenging castings in resin etc....are you suggesting a different manufacturer initiated such originally? In my mind's eye I can also see the supplier's stand and the resin bodies akin to those that you have used but I cant recall the name (is it; Model Express?). 

 

It could be possible to convert Heljan's to single bogies, but Im guessing it could be a chore - I have oft contemplated it....it maybe worth a closer look and would, of course reduce power consumption and 'drag' (inertia?) whilst freeing up space.

 

ATVB

 

CME

Edited June 28, 2016 by CME and Bottlewasher

[Phill Dyson (onslaught832)]

I think most El-Crapo were either white metal or etch brass & I am pretty certain they never did a Warship.

Mageken produced a Warship, but this was a high end kit for the time...these were later made available from Model Express using the old Mageken moulds but much more rough & ready as a low budget kits (about £100)....I don't know the state of play with this kit now Model Express have changed hands.

Penguin of Doom did some Heljan's with one power bogie on here & Facebook.....some very very nice class 26 & 27..

[CME and Bottlewasher]

I think most El-Crapo were either white metal or etch brass & I am pretty certain they never did a Warship.

Mageken produced a Warship, but this was a high end kit for the time...these were later made available from Model Express using the old Mageken moulds but much more rough & ready as a low budget kits (about £100)....I don't know the state of play with this kit now Model Express have changed hands.

Penguin of Doom did some Heljan's with one power bogie on here & Facebook.....some very very nice class 26 & 27..

Hi Phill,

 

Many thanks - yes you are right mea culpa (I get easily confused these days LOL!)

 

I shall have a look for PoD - have you any Links though?

 

ATVB

 

CME

[Phill Dyson (onslaught832)]

No links, but I'm sure you will find em

[brian daniels]

I built 4 of those McGeken Warships! The windows are glass molded into the resin for you, very nice.

[Phill Dyson (onslaught832)]

Could still hold it's own today, but the new Model Express owners should add a detail etch to update it.

[Lord Flashheart]

Hi Phill,

 

Many thanks - yes you are right mea culpa (I get easily confused these days LOL!)

 

I shall have a look for PoD - have you any Links though?

 

ATVB

 

CME

Hi CME

This link should help you out

http://www.modellersunited.co.uk/the-penguins-7mm-workbench-t1119.html

 

Rob

[CME and Bottlewasher]

I built 4 of those McGeken Warships! The windows are glass molded into the resin for you, very nice.

Very, very nice indeed...shame that the quality of the kits isnt still that good these days!

 

Could still hold it's own today, but the new Model Express owners should add a detail etch to update it.

I agree Phill, and I contemplated one, or a Tower version, cost and time come into the decision and as I already have numerous kits that require a lot of 'cut and shut' (ie the ME version requires lots of work - unless one can find an un-built new/old stock original version on Ebay) work, plus some RC boats to finish (more warships LOL!) and with a significant birthday the opportunity arose for the Heljan version to fit the bill. I still would like a Class 25 and 22 but they will have to wait for now LOL!

 

Hi CME

This link should help you out

http://www.modellersunited.co.uk/the-penguins-7mm-workbench-t1119.html

 

Rob

Thanks Rob, much obliged.

 

ATVB to all

 

CME

Edited June 30, 2016 by CME and Bottlewasher

[The Penguin 0f Doom]

Hi Phill,

 

I shall have a look for PoD - have you any Links though?

 

ATVB

 

CME

Hi Phil.

 

You will actually find the details of the removal of 1 x bogie and replacement with a dummy here.....

 

http://westernthunder.co.uk/index.php?threads/the-penguins-7mm-thread.4587/

 

Hope this helps.

 

Cheers.

 

Sean.

[CME and Bottlewasher]

Hi Phil.

 

You will actually find the details of the removal of 1 x bogie and replacement with a dummy here.....

 

http://westernthunder.co.uk/index.php?threads/the-penguins-7mm-thread.4587/

 

Hope this helps.

 

Cheers.

 

Sean.

Thanks Sean, much obliged.  

 

I note that the photos are hard to enlarge over on WT, if you have any more links on de-motoring Heljans with 'painting by numbers' type photos for a dullard like me then that would be great too.....

 

I also note that on WT that you are a; 'Huge fan of inappropriate behaviour'   .....Id be very careful that could get you into trouble on that forum      

 

ATVB

 

CME  

Edited July 2, 2016 by CME and Bottlewasher

[The Penguin 0f Doom]

Thanks Sean, much obliged.  

 

I note that the photos are hard to enlarge over on WT, if you have any more links on de-motoring Heljans with 'painting by numbers' type photos for a dullard like me then that would be great too.....

 

I also note that on WT that you are a; 'Huge fan of inappropriate behaviour'   .....Id be very careful that could get you into trouble on that forum      

 

ATVB

 

CME  

Hi CME.

 

I will be able to get you some more pictures but it may take a little time. I will post them on my facebook page once they are sorted and PM you to let you know.

 

https://www.facebook.com/groups/987152598004135/

 

Cheers.

 

Sean.

[CME and Bottlewasher]

Hi CME.

 

I will be able to get you some more pictures but it may take a little time. I will post them on my facebook page once they are sorted and PM you to let you know.

 

https://www.facebook.com/groups/987152598004135/

 

Cheers.

 

Sean.

Hi Sean,

 

Thanks - Im not a FB user but my better half is so, I can look through with her LOL!

 

I am sure that using only one motor and gears will help many Heljan users as most of us dont need twin motors - I have been pondering the idea as an RC users in other hobbies for some time, glad to see someone else is trail blazing. In addition I suspect that if using DCC - and only one gearbox and motor-  a more cost effective decoder would be possible too. I have to give Dapol credit for adopting that approach (although the Dapol loco styles/type accommodate such more readily)

 

Thanks again.

 

Kindest,

 

CME