Bachmann to produce S Stock for London Transport Museum

[159220]

It was stated in the August/September 2015 issue of Model Rail magazine (can't remember exactly which month), that they were a limited edition of 1000 and that they may sell out before their release on 2nd October. Obviously this was untrue.

 

I disagree strongly with a £60 price increase and that a rerelease somewhat goes against the original press release made by LTM saying they were limited. 

 

 

There was a certificate issued with the first few hundred out of 2000 produced (Those with a certificate you shall note it is states out of 300). Such a number is certainly well below usual production runs and as such 'limited edition'. I made no note of any terminology in May 2015 stating the word limited edition/one off in any of the official information from the LTM (nor the press statements seen on Page 1 here), if you see post 495 you shall read the exact LTM belief on the S-Stock. What is merely mention is they are an exclusive model to the LTM of strictly limited numbers. 

 

Here is the original press statement, no mention of limited edition: http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/99691-Bachmann-to-produce-s-stock-for-london-transport-museum/?p=1905163

 

And Bachmann: http://www.Bachmann.co.uk/details_archive.php?id=264 

 

For the sake of a circular argument, and repeating myself as clearly the point was not heard in Post 483 & 495. Since May 2015 production costs have increased significantly year on year as well as a minor issue of the pound sterling dropping off the cliff. 

Edited July 7, 2017 by 159220

[Horsetan]

....I disagree strongly with a £60 price increase ....

 

I think most modellers would strongly disagree with any sort of price increase on anything.

 

One supposes that a solution is merely to hold off buying anything. Lots of unsold stock may then convince a retailer to offer sale prices to shift it......

[PaulRhB]

The simple fact is they are offering them at the current price, if you want them and can afford it they are available. No amount of speculation will reduce the price and if you think they are overpriced then you just have to be patient and see if they discount them in a couple of years. You take a chance but this isn't a main range item and I guess unlikely to be while LTM are still offering them as it would be very bad for future deals to undercut them

LGB have gone after the collector market and bumped up prices massively in the last few years and after their near collapse it seems to have been justified as they are producing quite a few totally new toolings again. We may not like it and yes it does cut out a lot of people on low budgets but it's only really producing a limited product like the Loveless or Aster models do and it happens to have been commissioned from Bachmann rather than a Korean brass maker.

As a similar set the Walthers US subway cars retailed for around $250 a few years ago and sell on eBay for around $350 now, I suspect they have a bigger potential market too.

https://www.ebay.com/p/Walthers-Proto-1000-R17-NYC-Subway-4-Car-Set-1-Powered-3-Unpowered-31016/1803836645

Edited July 7, 2017 by PaulRhB

[Ely_South]

There was a certificate issued with the first few hundred out of 2000 produced (Those with a certificate you shall note it is states out of 300).

 

Yes - A nice plastic certificate (credit card-style) that got the owner the offer of a ride from Moorgate to Watford and Amersham and back whilst chatting with LTM & LU staff and freely wandering in and out of the driving cabs whilst in motion.

 

I'd happily pay RRP again to have a similar experience with other model launches. It was a fantastic coup by LTM :-)

 

Rob

 

PS. As an aside, there was whispered mention of a VERY small number of individuals being offered a ride in/behind one of the LU-liveried Class 66s a couple of years ago when they were launched at Warley. I presume nothing came of this in the end; they would have been rather popular...

[Legend]

I'm puzzled at who these models are intended for. I would have thought it would be Uk model railway enthusiasts . I'm finding it a bit of a stretch that these will appeal to passing tourists with £340 to spend on a souvenir . A souvenir red bus I get, but a £340 tube train ?

 

Can't remember when these came out , but If Brexit in between , that would account for the extra £60 as the £ to $ has declined by 17%. But then I thought these were overpriced in the first place even worse now!

[hamish_barb]

Not sure where the £70 figure comes from? Actual increase is £59.99 as previous retail was £280 back in May 2015. In the last two years, production costs have risen significantly, not withstanding the minor issue of the pound sterling crashing. A 20% increase to price seems reasonable and no doubt these high spending long haul tourists heading to our shores this July and August (up 18% since last summer season) shall lap up the S-Stock. 

 

Lets not squabble over price increases again, it has been discussed to death on many threads. The arguments have become acutely circular. 

 

 

Sorry, you are correct, it was £70.

 

I just find £70 for basically changing some numbers on the train to be a bit of a farce. Just my £0.02.

[Roy Langridge]

No I am not joking and you shouldn't be so patronising. I am entitled to my opinion as are you. I am saying they can do another run with the same livery if they want to, just that I disagree strongly with a £60 price increase and that a rerelease somewhat goes against the original press release made by LTM saying they were limited. I was repeatedly told by LTM staff as well as mentioned in the September issue of Model Rail that they expected to sell out before they were even shipped.

 

Yes I do know the fault as I own a set and have seen many others complaining of similar height disparities on this and other forums, one of whose stated they would return the model because of it. DRS Crewe on a mission has also just mentioned that it was reported, as well as a gradient issue.

 

I did not mean to be patronising and yes you are entitled to an opinion - I said nothing to the contrary.

 

The point I was making is that you have expressed opinion as fact. Yes there were problems with the first set, feedback was given as you say. You state as fact that they have not listened, yet I have seen nothing on which you base that statement.

 

Roy

Edited July 7, 2017 by Roy Langridge

[Jeff Smith]

I'm puzzled at who these models are intended for. I would have thought it would be Uk model railway enthusiasts . I'm finding it a bit of a stretch that these will appeal to passing tourists with £340 to spend on a souvenir . A souvenir red bus I get, but a £340 tube train ?

 

Can't remember when these came out , but If Brexit in between , that would account for the extra £60 as the £ to $ has declined by 17%. But then I thought these were overpriced in the first place even worse now!

I tend to agree - many foreign visitors would not be interested in 1/76 OO let alone the price factor.

[ruggedpeak]

For the uninitiated LTM Shop do have clearances periodically - worth signing up for their newsletter. I reported discounted Westerns earlier in the year on the the Bargain Hunters thread (which amazingly was complained about!). Whether S Stock gets discounted, who knows, but recently they discounted some steam engine and IIRC a class 20.

[adb968008]

I'm puzzled at who these models are intended for. I would have thought it would be Uk model railway enthusiasts . I'm finding it a bit of a stretch that these will appeal to passing tourists with £340 to spend on a souvenir . A souvenir red bus I get, but a £340 tube train ?

Can't remember when these came out , but If Brexit in between , that would account for the extra £60 as the £ to $ has declined by 17%. But then I thought these were overpriced in the first place even worse now!

Wealthy tourists buy all kinds of guff in London.

They won't buy a fleet of tube stock, regardless scale.

 

Put it differently, when I was a tourist in New York, I bought a Proto NYC Subway set, even though I don't model US railroads.

 

One point however regards price... the £ is down 20%, the models up 20%, therefore the tourist using it won't see any difference in price in their own currency, and many will claim their 20% VAT back as they leave LHR, making it £275 or so. The price, quality ratio obviously worked first time round, otherwise there wouldnt be a 2nd/3rd batch, so it must have sold ok.

 

it's only us Brits who live here who feel the self inflicted currency pain, but then again we voted for it, and that's not a debate for this thread.

Edited July 7, 2017 by adb968008

[No Decorum]

Yes - A nice plastic certificate (credit card-style) that got the owner the offer of a ride from Moorgate to Watford and Amersham and back whilst chatting with LTM & LU staff and freely wandering in and out of the driving cabs whilst in motion.

 

I'd happily pay RRP again to have a similar experience with other model launches. It was a fantastic coup by LTM :-)

 

Rob

 

PS. As an aside, there was whispered mention of a VERY small number of individuals being offered a ride in/behind one of the LU-liveried Class 66s a couple of years ago when they were launched at Warley. I presume nothing came of this in the end; they would have been rather popular...

As I recall, it was necessary to apply for a (free) ticket. All the tickets were claimed but the train only seemed half full. It was indeed a superb experience.

[Western Dave]

Sorry, you are correct, it was £70.

 

I just find £70 for basically changing some numbers on the train to be a bit of a farce. Just my £0.02.

Ok so this is NOT aimed at any individual post ok

 

But firstly why would the price not go up? Ever other model in the last 12 months has increased not just because of the devaluation of Stirling but also due to the increased costs in/from China

 

Secondly if you have the original model you may still want this one with a different number, after all most of us have more than one model of the same class etc... if I had a tube layout why would I not want a second, third or more

[Jeff Smith]

Personally I can't believe the insane prices that some people are quite willing to pay for RTR stock but quibble at the price of decent (appropriate) track to run it on!

 

Sorry, have had a couple of Scotches over here in the Colonies......

[bart2day]

Ok so this is NOT aimed at any individual post ok

But firstly why would the price not go up? Ever other model in the last 12 months has increased not just because of the devaluation of Stirling but also due to the increased costs in/from China

Secondly if you have the original model you may still want this one with a different number, after all most of us have more than one model of the same class etc... if I had a tube layout why would I not want a second, third or more

I understand prices do rise but I would challenge anyone to name an imported good which has gone up by over 20% in two years.

 

Secondly, you might want a second train (I know I would if money is no object) but is paying this much extra for a model which one of the previous posters suggested may just be left overs from the first production run that have been renumbered warranted? I would argue no.

[newbryford]

 

 

If this was the case surely it wouldn't have been financailly viable for Bachmann to produce them in the first place considering that the whole set is brand new tooling for both the driving cars and the immediate cars.

 

 

 

Bachmann were commissioned by LTM to produce the S stock. As long as Bachmann produced the models to the quoted cost to LTM, then there was no real risk to Bachmann as LTM paid Bachmann to produce so many models of the S Stock.

 

If all the principal costs (research. design and tooling) were amortised in the first run - and this is the usual practice, then any subsequent models should generate far more profit - especially if sold at the same or higher price.

[159220]

 

 

I understand prices do rise but I would challenge anyone to name an imported good which has gone up by over 20% in two years.

 

If you read the Weekend Financial Times or a decent board sheet daily such as the Guardian/Observer, Telegraph or Times, you would be very aware of price increases across all areas of the economy. Yes Brexit plays a significant part, but the drive by the Chinese Government to increase the minimum wage of worker as been beyond doubt the main driver of price increases for model trains specifically. 

 

Examples of imported goods since June 2016...hmm: Apple raised prices between 11% and 25% earlier this year. iPhone 7 increased by c.11%, iTunes c.25%, iMac 4K c.20%. Microsoft Office by between c.13% to 22%. Adobe Creative Suite by 25%. Timber has increased by 20%. Spanish Slate by 22%. My lunchtime coffee by 14%. Marmite increased 14.5%. I shall not go on, this is just one year. 

Edited July 14, 2017 by 159220

[Roy Langridge]

I understand prices do rise but I would challenge anyone to name an imported good which has gone up by over 20% in two years.

 

Secondly, you might want a second train (I know I would if money is no object) but is paying this much extra for a model which one of the previous posters suggested may just be left overs from the first production run that have been renumbered warranted? I would argue no.

 

I but a lot of items in € for work. July 2015 the €/£ was 1.43, today 1.14. So, buying 500€ worth of goods cost me £350 two years ago, now £440. That is an increase of 25%. So yes, I can name you a list of probably 50-60 imported items that have increased by 25% in 2 years.

 

Quite frankly whether you or I (and I wouldn't either) would pay that amount is not an issue though is it if they do sell? I would suggest that the museum has a good idea what its typical visitor will pay.

​

Roy 

[stewartingram]

Only got to go back to the 1950s and look at what was available then. Both the (tiny) range and the quality (not of build, H/D was superbly made, but the accuracy and detail was far below todays standard).

Then look at the average wage. An old saying, but You've never had it so good.

 

Stewart

[DRS Crewe On A Mission]

Bachmann were commissioned by LTM to produce the S stock. As long as Bachmann produced the models to the quoted cost to LTM, then there was no real risk to Bachmann as LTM paid Bachmann to produce so many models of the S Stock.

 

If all the principal costs (research. design and tooling) were amortised in the first run - and this is the usual practice, then any subsequent models should generate far more profit - especially if sold at the same or higher price.

 

Thanks for the info Mick. I wasn't aware of this.

 

Really LTM took a big risk then commissioning Bachmann to produce the S Stock.  With it been a brand new model with new tooling the cost to pay Bachmann to produce so many of them must have been significant. I really hope that the S Stock is selling well for LTM because prior to the first batch been available to buy they had no idea how well or not they were going to sell. Considering that the first batch was for sale at £280 it was quite a high price that LTM were relying on customers paying.

 

Please could anyone tell me how you sign up to the LTM newsletter to get the 10% off of your first order? I have looked on the website and I can't see anything. I get emails from LTM. Is this the newsletter that I have already signed up for or does the newsletter come as a paper copy to the house?

 

Considering the risk that LTM have took by commissioning Bachman to produce such fantastic models I am more than willing to support them as and when I can. Especially when they are a charity as well. It's all the more worthwhile.

 

Thank you very much in advance.

[jjb1970]

Don't underestimate just how much some foreign tourists are willing to spend, especially Asian visitors. I had a really very excellent Japanese dinner in London with a very nice group of Japanese chaps last week and seeing the sort of stuff they bought as momentos of their visit was quite an eye opener.

 

On the S Stock, it was a nice model but not perfect. As a niche model, commissioned by LTM it was never going to be cheap but I didn't consider the first release especially over priced given the nature of the release. I hoped they'd do more models as the underground system is so overlooked in model form despite the size of the system and its importance.

[bart2day]

Please could anyone tell me how you sign up to the LTM newsletter to get the 10% off of your first order? I have looked on the website and I can't see anything. I get emails from LTM. Is this the newsletter that I have already signed up for or does the newsletter come as a paper copy to the house?

 

Considering the risk that LTM have took by commissioning Bachman to produce such fantastic models I am more than willing to support them as and when I can. Especially when they are a charity as well. It's all the more worthwhile.

 

Thank you very much in advance.

When I go to the homepage of the shop at https://www.ltmuseumshop.co.uk/ a little pop up comes up at the bottom of the screen which asks you to enter your email address to sign up to the newsletter and get a 10% off code. Even though by the sounds of things you have already signed up if you are already getting emails from them. If you have a second email address you could try entering that. Edited July 8, 2017 by bart2day

[adb968008]

People are missing the point.

 

In mid 2015 £280 = $442 @ 1.52 forex for the 1st release

In mid 2017 £339 = $438 @ 1.28forex today for the second release.

 

If your not British the price hasn't risen.

With VAT back, the price becomes $352

A good proportion of these models probably end up exported.

 

By comparison, the MTH NYC subway 4 car set is $299 + applicable state sales tax. (Av 10% takes it to $330).

 

 

The price is relative, the complaining on here is down to currency, which was a devaluation decision made by the population in June last year.

Edited July 9, 2017 by adb968008

[bart2day]

People are missing the point.

In mid 2015 £280 = $442 @ 1.52 forex for the 1st release

In mid 2017 £339 = $438 @ 1.28forex today for the second release.

If your not British the price hasn't risen.

With VAT back, the price becomes $352

A good proportion of these models probably end up exported.

By comparison, the MTH NYC subway 4 car set is $299 + applicable state sales tax. (Av 10% takes it to $330).

The price is relative, the complaining on here is down to currency, which was a devaluation decision made by the population in June last year.

This depends on how many end up exported. Considering they are not sold as a 'train set' with track and a controller, many tourists may find them a bit useless other than for a display.

 

I don't think the population 'voted' for devaluation. They voted to leave the EU.

[Roy Langridge]

This depends on how many end up exported. Considering they are not sold as a 'train set' with track and a controller, many tourists may find them a bit useless other than for a display.

 

I don't think the population 'voted' for devaluation. They voted to leave the EU.

Can we leave the cost issue now? You didn't believe the affects of currency changes over 2 years and two of us have provided evidence. The LTM can't afford to subsidise these to cover that change so the costs are now what they are.

 

Whether they are bought by UK residents or not is irrelevant for the museum, they need that cash to do their good work.

 

Roy

[DRS Crewe On A Mission]

When I go to the homepage of the shop at https://www.ltmuseumshop.co.uk/ a little pop up comes up at the bottom of the screen which asks you to enter your email address to sign up to the newsletter and get a 10% off code. Even though by the sounds of things you have already signed up if you are already getting emails from them. If you have a second email address you could try entering that.

 

Thank you very much for letting me know. I really appreciate it.

 

I have just entered the email address that I have been receiving the emails on and that has worked. I have now changed my password because I couldn't remember it and I have updated my address and phone number. On my order status it's saying that I haven't ordered anything yet which I thought was correct. It looks like I am ready to order something as and when I have the money and by the looks of it I should get the 10% off with it been my first order.

 

Thank you very much for all of the help.