1200 "Falcon" South Wales workings

[slilley]

Interesting as in 1967 I was told by a WR Loco Engineer that the BRCW loco was the more expensive - mind you by then practical experience with the Brush product might well have coloured his opinion.

An interesting thought, not sure though where his information came from.

 

This is an extract from Class 47 50 Years of Locomotive History on the outcome of the tender process in 1960.

 

Several manufacturers submitted bids to build 100 locomotives to the new specification. They were Brush, English Electric, North British Locomotive Co Ltd (NBL) and a joint bid involving Birmingham Railway Carriage and Wagon Co Ltd (BRCW), Associated Electrical Industries (AEI) and Sulzer. The proposals were reviewed on 15 September 1960.

 

The offer that made the greatest impression was the joint bid from BRCW, AEI and Sulzer. Priced at £103,202, it featured the Sulzer engine at 2,750hp, steam and electric train heating and an advanced control system. The proposal found considerable favour with J. F. Harrison, the BTC’s CME. He particularly liked the control system developed jointly by AEI and Sulzer, and thought it simplified good driving. Maximum tractive effort was available across the power range above one-third full load. Furthermore it was noted that the mechanical parts were of a simple, straightforward design, with a clean and unobstructed interior. Both Harrison and the Chief Electrical Engineer S. B. Warder deemed that the mechanical parts were suitable for manufacturing under licence in BR’s own workshops from 1963 onwards, should BR so wish. However, such was manufacturing capacity in BR’s own workshops that locomotives of this design required for service in 1962 would need to be built by private industry. The consortium’s offer was made on the basis that if accepted, 60% of the locomotives would be built by BRCW and 40% by AEI/Metro-Cammell. A prototype was already under construction, and could be delivered in July or August 1961 as the first of the new class, should they be awarded the contract. The covering letter from AEI indicates that BRCW had submitted a separate bid of their own, to the same design, although it is not mentioned in the memo to the Technical Committee. Their delivery schedule depended on whether 50, 100, or 200 locomotives were ordered. Deliveries for all three quantities would commence in March 1962 at a rate of three per month. This would rise to seven per month for an order of 50 locomotives with completion in December 1962. For an order of 100 locomotives, the delivery rate would increase to 12 per month, and would be completed in February 1963. If 200 locomotives were ordered, these would be produced at a rate of 16 per month with completion in September 1963. The tender was valid for two months from 11 July. C. W. King, Head of the Civil Engineering Department, had also had an opportunity to review the consortium’s offer. Based on the information that he had been provided with, he had provisionally given the design a route availability of RA7 and confirmed that it would be able to traverse ten chain vertical curves in hump yards.

 

Brush had submitted three bids in their document dated 11 July 1960. The first was for a production version of Falcon, which at the time was scheduled to be completed in December 1960. Equipped with steam heating and priced at £104,750, it was judged by the BTC to have no technical advantages over the single-engined options. The second proposal was described as ‘Alternative 1’. A 2,750hp Sulzer-engined design with steam heating, it was acknowledged to be similar to, but with no technical advantages over, the BRCW/AEI/Sulzer offer. It was also more expensive at £107,250, with a further £3,000 to be added should an auxiliary generator for ETH be required. Their third offer, ‘Alternative 2’, was at £95,250 the lowest priced bid of all those received, and was for a Brush design equipped with an English Electric 16CSVT engine. Steam heating was included, with provision for ETH to be installed later if required. This proposal was not favoured for reasons relating to the engine. Its proposed rating of 2,600hp at 850rpm was considered to be insufficient to provide 2,500hp for traction purposes when ETH was being used. It was also thought to be at the limit of its development and without the capacity to be up-rated further; also no traction experience had been obtained with the engine running at that output. Given these reasons it is hard to understand why an English Electric engine at that output was part of the specification in the first place.

 

The bid from English Electric at £107,736 per locomotive was considered too costly. Rejected on the same grounds was the offer from NBL. Their Sulzer-powered design was at £111,000 the most expensive, although both steam and electric train heating were included in the price.

[JeffP]

Fascinating.

 

Where can this book be had from?

[ozzyo]

Fascinating.

 

Where can this book be had from?

 

 

Chaps

 

I can understand the thinking aloud but I really would suggest you read the opening chapters of my book. The whole story is laid out in detail. As I said when researching we were accessing original BR and Brush documents from the period 1959 to 1962. It is a story with umpteen twists and turns, too many to detail here. So far as Brush being cheaper than BRCW, alas no. In the original tender process of 1960, BRCW came out on top and there was every chance LION would have been not a prototype loco but the first loco of the new class.

 

If anyone hasn't a copy of Class 47 50 Years of Locomotive History, pm me and I can arrange it for you, complete with author signatures.

 

Is that any help JeffP.

[keefer]

So where does DP2 fit into this? EE's own project to show the viability of the 2700hp engine?

Of course, this would all result in the cl. 50s, albeit with many technological upgrades and changes to the basic loco design. It has been said that it would have been better to order 50 DP2s although with flat front cabs, due to a lot of the new equipment being unnecessary/ unreliable

Edited June 12, 2015 by keefer

[Rail-Online]

Here is another of Falcon working with the 9E61 headcode......

 

http://www.rail-online.co.uk/p531845740/h3d6b4261#h3d6b4261

 

There are two others of it on the site - all have the same headcode so indeed it carried it for some time!

 

Tony

Edited June 12, 2015 by Rail-Online

[Fat Controller]

Here is another of Falcon working with the 9E61 headcode......

 

http://www.rail-online.co.uk/p531845740/h3d6b4261#h3d6b4261

 

There are two others of it on the site - all have the same headcode so indeed it carried it for some time!

 

Tony

I suspect 9E61 is a latter day version of the old 'Target' that the GWR and WR used to designate certain trip and shunting duties- indeed, it was probably known as Target 61.. In similar style, all workings between Llandeilo Jct and Cynheidre were 9B83, IIRC after forty-odd years. It probably got to the state that the headcode winder seized through lack of use after a while..

[The Stationmaster]

I suspect 9E61 is a latter day version of the old 'Target' that the GWR and WR used to designate certain trip and shunting duties- indeed, it was probably known as Target 61.. In similar style, all workings between Llandeilo Jct and Cynheidre were 9B83, IIRC after forty-odd years. It probably got to the state that the headcode winder seized through lack of use after a while..

 

i.e. 'E61' = Ebbw Jcn Trip 61 (says he without checking).

[johnw1]

9E61 again

https://www.flickr.com/photos/pics-by-john/11830250853/

[slilley]

Where does DP2 fit in? Well from what I have been able to piece together, all the main manufacturers knew well in advance of BR issuing their new Type 4 specification what that spec would be. BTC officials made visits regularly to all the main manufacturers. The EE engine at 2700hp was specified in BR's new Type 4 spec as was the Sulzer engine. From discussion that were had with Brush the option of twin Maybach engines was added later. DP2 was therefore EE's response to the Type 4 specification agreed by BR in Jan 1960.

 

As for the Class 50s themselves, again I can only quote from Class 47 50 Years of Locomotive History, which touched on this subject briefly

 

Although orders had been placed for a total of 512 Brush Type 4 locomotives, the BR Board/Industry Policy Committee, a body comprising representatives from BR and manufacturers such as Brush, were advised by BR of a possible requirement for a further 150 Type 4 locomotives at their March 1964 meeting. This number was later reduced by the BR Board to 100. Both Brush and English Electric provided the Board with prices for 110 locomotives, which were summarised in a memo to the Supply Committee in July 1965. The prices quoted did not include the provision of a train heating boiler, although they allowed for the appropriate fittings should one be required. Of the options proposed, the CE (T&RS) considered that the provision of an English Electric engine in a Brush Type 4 locomotive was technically unacceptable for several reasons. It would produce a locomotive with an untried combination of engine and electrical components, some of the equipment and mechanical parts would need redesigning, and development work was likely to be required before production could begin. In their offer English Electric said they were prepared to enter into a hire arrangement, while Brush said they were considering the terms on which they would be prepared to hire locomotives to BR. Brush’s schedule would see locomotives delivered between September 1966 and February 1967 if a Sulzer engine was required, and between October 1966 to November 1967 if the English Electric engine was chosen. English Electric’s schedule was to deliver fifty locomotives to their design between January 1967 and January 1968.

 

Table 4: Results of 1965 tender for Type 4 locomotives

 

a) Brush Design

 

No of Locomotives Estimated Prices per Locomotive

Sulzer engine English Electric engine

 

Brush

 

25 £122,200 £111,200

50/55 £121,200 £109,800

110 £120,000 £108,300

BR Workshops 25 £121,700 £109,600

55 £121,200 £108,800

 

 

B) English Electric Design

 

No of Locomotives Estimated Prices per Locomotive

Type 4 DP2

50 £105,400 £106,100

110 £102,400 £103,300

 

 

John Ratter, the BR Board Member for Engineering, presented a paper on the availability of Sulzer-powered Type 4s, and the options for future Type 4 locomotive purchases, for the Board to consider in October 1965. He set out details of availability plus a summary of the main technical issues associated with not only the Brush Type 4s but also with the three variants of BR/Sulzer Type 4. At the time, 402 Brush Type 4s had been delivered, returning an average availability of 75%. The main concern with them was the cracking of the Sulzer engines, the full extent of which was only just becoming known. Ratter’s view was that the Board had two options, the first of which was to purchase a further quantity of Brush Type 4s. These would incorporate all the modifications found necessary during the three years’ experience of operating the fleet. The second option was to purchase a quantity of what he described as ‘DP2 locomotives’ from English Electric. While both options had their advantages, his preference would be for the English Electric design. The BR Board accepted his recommendation, although they were only able to gain permission from the Ministry of Transport to hire 50 new locomotives. With this acquisition, BR’s Type 4 locomotive fleet was completed. In October 1965, BR entered into an agreement with English Electric for the construction and hire of 50 locomotives based upon DP2. The first of these entered service in September 1967, and were later designated Class 50.

 

Best wishes

 

Simon

[br2975]

1200 'Falcon' again seen during the recovery of 37143 at Cwm, Ebbw Vale.

.

Note she now carries the reporting number 9E62

.

Photographer unknown

 

[toffee]

 

I was going to say she used to occasionally turn up in Cardiff docks, and There has been a recent report on FB of a rescue move taking her down to Baglan Bay on a tanker train after a 37 or 2 failed somewhere near Newport, this happening in the early hours.

[br2975]

An interesting interlude...........

 

1200 'Falcon' was reported as withdrawn from Ebbw Junction on 18th. May, 1974.

 

By 27th. May, 1974  the loco had moved from Newport to the Brush works at Loughborough via Birmingham and Derby.

.

According to the R.O. as 'Falcon' was still the property of Brush, it  was returned to their Loughborough works to act as a standby generator (due to the 1974 miner's strike ?).

.

From one other report, it appears the rail access to the Brush works had also been severed and 'Falcon' stood on a siding alongside the station and outside the Brush works. 

.

What the R.O. seemed to forget, is that the loco became B.R. property in December 1970, when whilst at Swindon it was renumbered from 0280 to 1200.

.

Whatever the reason for the round trip to Leicestershire, 'Falcon' was reinstated to traffic at Ebbw Junction on about 17th. June, 1974.

Edited May 25, 2018 by br2975

[br2975]

I was going to say she used to occasionally turn up in Cardiff docks, and There has been a recent report on FB of a rescue move taking her down to Baglan Bay on a tanker train after a 37 or 2 failed somewhere near Newport, this happening in the early hours.

 

I'm told she also turned up at Radyr at least once.

.

How true this is, I don't know.

.

I never saw it in or around Cardiff, even when it was officially allocated to Canton.

 

Brian R

[E3109]

1200 'Falcon' again seen during the recovery of 37143 at Cwm, Ebbw Vale.

.

Note she now carries the reporting number 9E62

.

Photographer unknown

Was that the EE Type 3 that fell into the slurry pit at a South Wales coal mine?

My old boss told me they dragged it out via a multitude of 47s and chains.

I believe it went "SCHLOP" when it resurfaced!

 

Regarding models, not all that interested in Falcon (beast though it was) but if anyone wants to do an HS4000 as a static exhibit in O Gauge or larger, then strap me in...

[br2975]

Was that the EE Type 3 that fell into the slurry pit at a South Wales coal mine?

My old boss told me they dragged it out via a multitude of 47s and chains.

I believe it went "SCHLOP" when it resurfaced!

 

Regarding models, not all that interested in Falcon (beast though it was) but if anyone wants to do an HS4000 as a static exhibit in O Gauge or larger, then strap me in...

 

Went through the points at the south end of the Marine Colliery loop, near Cwm on the Aberbeeg - Ebbw Vale line.

.

The 37 slid on its side down a bank and was teetering over the Ebbw river, apparently held back by the trees.

.

It lay there for months as a means of recovery was devised.....lay a wooden roadway down the bank, and tow the loco back up the bank using several locos and what was known as 'Kelbus' equipment, a sort of block and tackle on steroids.

.

Brian R

[Fat Controller]

Went through the points at the south end of the Marine Colliery loop, near Cwm on the Aberbeeg - Ebbw Vale line.

.

The 37 slid on its side down a bank and was teetering over the Ebbw river, apparently held back by the trees.

.

It lay there for months as a means of recovery was devised.....lay a wooden roadway down the bank, and tow the loco back up the bank using several locos and what was known as 'Kelbus' equipment, a sort of block and tackle on steroids.

.

Brian R

IIRC, there was an article in a contemporary Modern Railways describing the recovery operation.

[The Johnster]

The recovered loco was put back on it's bogies and brought to Canton, where there was a myth that it had actually been in the river Ebbw for several months and that dead fishes and a frog had been recovered from the damaged end cab.  It had to be sent to Doncaster for repair, and there was a plan to rig up temporary drawgear and buffers and haul it up with a brake van attached; it went by road in the end IIRC. 

 

I only ever saw Falcon in it's Ebbw Jc days hauling iron ore trains between Newport Docks and Llanwern Steelworks, or on shed at Ebbw, which is what you'd expect from a Canton guard who spent most of his time on the main line!  It retained a certain presence, a powerful looking and imposing machine.  

[br2975]

I only ever saw Falcon in it's Ebbw Jc days hauling iron ore trains between Newport Docks and Llanwern Steelworks,

 

"Falcon" was fitted with vacuum brakes until late 1970 when they were removed at Swindon and air brakes fitted in their place. At the same time it was painted blue and became 0280, the D being removed. At this time it was purchased from Brush by BR, and remembered 1200.

.

It returned to Bath Road and worked passenger turns from there until transfer to South Wales in August 1972.

.

That move came about because "Falcon", not being fitted with ETH was unable to work the Class 1 trains that previously kept it occupied.

.

The hoppers used on the Newport Docks - Spencer Works (Llanwern) circuit were vacuum fitted so considering their loaded weight were unlikely to be operated by 1200, unless in emergency, and by the time 1200 arrived at Ebbw Junction the Spencer Works for trains had been diagrammed for pairs of Cl.25s for some time.

.

1200 mainly tripped from ADJ to the Uskmouth Branch.

.

Brian R

Edited May 25, 2018 by br2975

[caradoc]

Falcon was a lovely loco, what a pity it could not be preserved. I saw it twice, in Swindon Works (maybe Autumn 1971 ?) and at Didcot one afternoon on an Up Bristol train, that must have been Summer 1972, shortly before it was banished to the untamed lands beyond the Severn.

[Enterprisingwestern]

 At the same time it was painted blue and became 0280, the D being removed. At this time it was purchased from Brush by BR, and remembered 1200.

 

Can't think which book it was in, but somewhere there is a picture of Falcon in blue numbered (D?)0280.

 

Mike.

[br2975]

Can't think which book it was in, but somewhere there is a picture of Falcon in blue numbered (D?)0280.

 

Mike.

I have a copy.....a BR blue 0280, taken in December 1970 at Swindon, with cables coming out of the cab ?

.

I believe it may have been renumbered 1200 before it left.t

.

Unless.......someone has a photo of Falcon in service, in BR blue as 1200 which has been well hidden ?

Edited May 26, 2018 by br2975

[Enterprisingwestern]

I have a copy.....a BR blue 0280, taken in December 1970 at Swindon, with cables coming out of the cab ?

.

I believe it may have been renumbered 1200 before it left.t

.

Unless.......someone has a photo of Falcon in service, in BR blue as 1200 which has been well hidden ?

 

Apologies for nit picking Brian, but 0280?

 

Mike.

[Rugd1022]

I have a copy.....a BR blue 0280, taken in December 1970 at Swindon, with cables coming out of the cab ?

.

I believe it may have been renumbered 1200 before it left.t

.

Unless.......someone has a photo of Falcon in service, in BR blue as 1200 which has been well hidden ?

 

Definitely renumbered 1200 before it got past the Works exit signal 

[caradoc]

Can't think which book it was in, but somewhere there is a picture of Falcon in blue numbered (D?)0280.

 

Mike.

 

'Seventies Diesels and Electric Days Remembered 2 (Kevin Derrick, Strathwood 2017), page 131; 0280 (no D) in blue at Swindon Works.

[toffee]

I heard the stories that it had been up to Radyr as well but never saw it happen. Never saw it on Canton either but was stood on the General once and was told by spotters that she was on the front of Canton, nothing else on their list being any use to me I didn't bother doing the walk down, something I somewhat regret now. Furthest West I saw her was on Pengam Bridge going into the docks.