Station throat Re-design

[Newmodeller96]

Hi All,

 

While playing with my track design I am getting stuck about the station entrance/throat. At the moment anything in the terminus platforms 3,4&5 can only get onto the up line and anything in the EMU Sidings and Headshunt can only get into Platforms 3,4&5. 
 

Could someone help with a way to re-design the headshunt area so locos can get into there from 3,4&5 then out onto the down line.

 

I have attached the zoomed in section for reference. I am modelling 80s to modern 3rd rail network southeast in 00 gauge. 

 

Thanks

 

H

[Chimer]

You could replace the point between the two slips with yet another slip and join the down via a trailing point.  But it would be an odd manoeuvre for a train to leave one of the terminal platforms and immediately reverse to head off on the down line ....

 

 

 

[Newmodeller96]

4 minutes ago, Chimer said:

You could replace the point between the two slips with yet another slip and join the down via a trailing point.  But it would be an odd manoeuvre for a train to leave one of the terminal platforms and immediately reverse to head off on the down line ....

 

 

 

That was one of my ideas! But as you say it feels weird! I wonder whether I should move the emu shed to the headshunt position, then do the double slip change so that trains from the siding can then get to all platforms?

[Chimer]

Trains arriving in the terminal platforms (from the down line) will either depart again (onto the up line) or move into the emu shed.  Trains leaving the shed move to a terminal platform then depart onto the up line.  Given the overall station design, it is unlikely that in the real world trains would be starting or ending their journeys on the through platforms, so moves between them and the shed will be uncommon, therefore it doesn't matter if they're a bit fiddly and have to go via a terminal platform.  

 

In your world, however, to get trains back to the terminal platforms they need to reverse somewhere, and stopping in the up through platform and leaving in the opposite direction, via a trailing crossover at the right-hand end of the platforms onto the down line (see below right), is one way of doing that.  But this wouldn't involve the shed anyway. 

 

And finally, I'm not sure why you need a headshunt at all?  I can't see any shunting going on here .... it's really just an extra EMU depot siding.  So I'd stick with this ....

 

 

[Newmodeller96]

@Chimer amazing thank you

[Dungrange]

1 hour ago, Chimer said:

It would be an odd manoeuvre for a train to leave one of the terminal platforms and immediately reverse to head off on the down line ....

 

 

 

 

Odd, but not unknown.  The layout of the station at Killarney in County Kerry is such that a train heading from Dublin / Cork / Mallow to Tralee arrives at the terminal platform at Killarney, then after the driver has changed ends reverses into a headhunt before the train continues its journey after the driver changes ends for a second time.  It means that the driver changes ends twice within a few minutes.  The same is true for the reverse journey from Tralee.  The train arrives in the head-shunt, the driver changes ends to effectively reverse into the platform and then changes ends again ready for departure towards Mallow.

 

https://www.google.com/maps/@52.0592137,-9.497789,16.98z

 

 

 

[Zomboid]

There's the switchbacks on various lines as well which do similar things (I've only experienced it on the Hisatsu line in Japan), though that's to gain height.

[SR71]

Could you put a loop on the down main with a small platform for through trains and anything starting afresh comes from the siding and into the loop to collect passengers?

 

I may have missed something but how do up trains get into the station? My brain also says you could swap the head shunt and sidings but I have to say I don't recognise the benefit without drawing it out.

[Chimer]

1 hour ago, SR71 said:

I may have missed something but how do up trains get into the station? 

 

They're not labelled on NM 96's first post, but platforms 1 & 2 serve the up and down through lines.

Edited January 26, 2022 by Chimer

[KeithMacdonald]

Is this another Minories topic?

(101 pages and counting)

Put it another way, would a Minories layout solve your problem?

[RobinofLoxley]

Isnt this what is requested?

 

The upper slip is a single, the lower a double. The anticipated movement is that trains can run from the EMU sidings straight onto the down line. Then if required, back through the double slip onto the up line.  The headshunt is redundant. I put some plain track sections in for easier visualisation.

[DCB]

I think most of a scissors is the least length hungry solution.   The three terminal platforms and two through ones is a bit unusual especially with all three to one side. Equally dead end stock sidings facing terminal platforms is unusual.  Generally they are through sidings, loops or face the same way as the terminal platforms so the pilot can pull the stock out and put it away.  In the  original post the pilot gets trapped.  It works with Emu's.   My take would be as below, a doodle but based on lots of fiddling with Peco Streamline angles etc

[5BarVT]

7 hours ago, DCB said:

The three terminal platforms and two through ones is a bit unusual especially with all three to one side. Equally dead end stock sidings facing terminal platforms is unusual.

Unusual, possibly, but not unknown!

Old Blackfriars (until latest Thameslink changes) was two through three terminal.

Dead end stock sidings facing terminal platforms, three immediately spring to mind: Euston Upside, Swansea Maliphant and Chingford.

So if that’s what works for you, then “go for it”.
Paul.

[DCB]

18 minutes ago, 5BarVT said:

Unusual, possibly, but not unknown!

Old Blackfriars (until latest Thameslink changes) was two through three terminal.

Dead end stock sidings facing terminal platforms, three immediately spring to mind: Euston Upside, Swansea Maliphant and Chingford.

So if that’s what works for you, then “go for it”.
Paul.

Portsmouth and Southsea is probably another.  I think  Euston Upside was so unusual that the designers of Turbomotive were caught out as they never expected it to have to reverse a heavy train out of a station, Its achillies heel was its reverse turbine was not big enough.

My point is that the design is ugly if you use loco hauled sets. Train arrives, Train loco puts the stock away, pilot loco gets trapped getting it back out. This eats up valuable platform space. or pilot pulls stock off and gets trapped at carriage siding buffers,  Applies which ever scale from 303mm ft to Half Z.   Usual MO is pilot pulls stock out and pushes back into sidings, facing same way as platforms that could be a few yards or half a mile.  Then for departures the Pilot pulls stock from sidings and pushes back into platform before scurrying off to do something else.  I get more "fun" from ECS workings with small ish tank engines hauling heavy loads than from actual trains myself.

[Aire Head]

On 26/01/2022 at 13:49, Newmodeller96 said:

Hi All,

 

While playing with my track design I am getting stuck about the station entrance/throat. At the moment anything in the terminus platforms 3,4&5 can only get onto the up line and anything in the EMU Sidings and Headshunt can only get into Platforms 3,4&5. 
 

Could someone help with a way to re-design the headshunt area so locos can get into there from 3,4&5 then out onto the down line.

 

I have attached the zoomed in section for reference. I am modelling 80s to modern 3rd rail network southeast in 00 gauge. 

 

Thanks

 

H

What reason would a train in platforms 3/4/5 have to access the down line?

[RobinofLoxley]

Dont know where my previosly posted reply has gone! Anyway I replied to the above post that its a model railway and given the layout as it is, that manoeuvre is desirable. And its converse, otherwise trains leaving the station can only continue the same way round. A train can only arrive in the terminus platforms if its been manoeuvred that way, or have I missed something really obvious?

[Chimer]

2 hours ago, RobinofLoxley said:

Dont know where my previosly posted reply has gone! Anyway I replied to the above post that its a model railway and given the layout as it is, that manoeuvre is desirable. And its converse, otherwise trains leaving the station can only continue the same way round. A train can only arrive in the terminus platforms if its been manoeuvred that way, or have I missed something really obvious?

 

Well, a train leaving the terminus and proceeding the way I would expect it to, anti-clockwise, certainly needs to reverse somewhere to come home.  Istr talk in earlier threads (there have been several) of a reversing loop somewhere, or alternatively the train could terminate in the through platform on the inner circuit, and leave in the opposite direction via a trailing crossover to the right of the station.

[Aire Head]

On 15/02/2022 at 18:13, RobinofLoxley said:

Dont know where my previosly posted reply has gone! Anyway I replied to the above post that its a model railway and given the layout as it is, that manoeuvre is desirable. And its converse, otherwise trains leaving the station can only continue the same way round. A train can only arrive in the terminus platforms if its been manoeuvred that way, or have I missed something really obvious?

 

The reason I was asking was if trains are expected to depart onto the down line from platforms 3/4/5 surely it would be more prototypical to have a bay platform that feeds onto the down line.

 

That way loaded trains don't have to complete a reversal move in order to access the line and likewise do not have to depart from the through roads.

 

Unit can move from the Up EMU sidings onto the down line as shown in the plans above. The unit then reverses into the bay platform with access to the down line where it collects it's passengers while still allowing trains to continue through the station.

 

Once its scheduled departure time is reached it then departs from the platform onto the down line.

Edited February 16, 2022 by Aire Head

[Flying Pig]

On 15/02/2022 at 11:42, Aire Head said:

What reason would a train in platforms 3/4/5 have to access the down line?

 

I think the layout is based on Orpington - at least that was the subject of some of the OP's previous threads:

 

https://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/profile/40392-newmodeller96/content/&type=forums_topic&change_section=1

 

@DCB's layout above is fairly close to the prototype as it was at one time, but I can't find an up to date plan.  It might be easier for people to give advice based on the whole layout, so link to a current plan for that would be useful @Newmodeller96.

 

I'm wondering why the station and sidings seem to be arranged across one of the short sides of the layout.