Transpennine Upgrade : Manchester/Leeds

[phil-b259]

9 hours ago, newbryford said:

 

Quite possibly.

But the day will probably come when no new-build diesels will be allowed.

And I guess that would also include hybrids with part-fossil fuel power.

 

There's only so long that "heritage" traction will be justified.

 

Although that would be many years from now.

 

 

 

True - but according to HM Government we won't have to worry because batteries and Hydrogen will come to the rescue!

 

Thing is for 'twigs' like Wigan - Kirby / Southport they are probably right, the real issue is main line / freight operations where it has been proved time after time that electrification is the way to go.

 

[phil-b259]

11 hours ago, Suzie said:

 

Could Merseyrail not be cajoled in to extending their 3rd rail to Upholland, then Wigan to Upholland would be an easy 25KV shoe-in with no need for a substation for such a short distance. Upholland could then become Skelmersdale Parkway! It would be a much better place to run the busses to rather than Wigan and Ormskirk.

 

 

 

Its not so much Merseyrail that need 'cajoling' - its the ORRs anti 3rd rail stance which is the biggest issue.

 

In any case the new Mersyrail stock has the provision for batteries and if there are to be any extensions to the Mersey rail service then that is the most likely form of traction to be provided and not any extension of electrification.

 

However you also need to remember that like TfL, the Merseyrail operation has been  'devolved' to the Liverpool Mayor and transport authority who not only have the ultimate say on how the thing is run, but who are also not going to spend the council tax of residents on expanding the sphere of operation to serve others who do not financially contribute unless a good deal can be struck with the DfT

[phil-b259]

11 hours ago, Suzie said:

 

I suspect that the Southport line will be able to justify electrification if destinations other than just Manchester Victoria can be found, and EMUs with smarter acceleration can reduce the journey time a bit on all-stopping services.

 

I don't

 

Hybrid units (be it battery / hydrogen in the long term or diesel in the short) are going to be way cheaper than OLE infrastructure when it comes to providing through services from electrified areas - and I doubt you could get away without some form of feeder at the Ormskirk end these days as it leaves no contingency.

[APOLLO]

On 01/09/2021 at 10:37, kevpeo said:

Long way way off 2024, but my guess is every 30 mins Wigan to Stalybridge, 6-car 323's. Every 30mins Southport - Oxford road 4-car 769. All via Bolton.  Hourly Southport - Leeds, and hourly Southport Rochdale via Atherton, all 4-car. We will see how correct I am! Kev.

 

The electric trains to Wigan North Western and Southport / Kirkby DMU's to Wallgate, which won't be electrified because of the bridge at Wallgate, which has buildings on top and is currently shored up with trestlework.

 

Good to see the Wigan Bolton line electrified. The two bays at Wigan NW which connect with the Manchester route have recently been lengthened a bit.

 

Brit15

[kevpeo]

Not by much though Apollo! Platform 1 can take 6 cars I think, but the bay platform, now only one of, only 4 cars.  Southport residents have been very vocal about keeping a service to the south side of Manchester hence the suggestion of 769's Southport - Ox Road. Kev.

Edited September 2, 2021 by kevpeo
to add the Southport bit!

[Zomboid]

2 hours ago, phil-b259 said:

 

I don't

 

Hybrid units (be it battery / hydrogen in the long term or diesel in the short) are going to be way cheaper than OLE infrastructure when it comes to providing through services from electrified areas - and I doubt you could get away without some form of feeder at the Ormskirk end these days as it leaves no contingency.

I could see battery units with in-platform charging provided at Southport being a solution to that kind of route. Comes with disadvantages if a train has to sit there for 20 minutes before it'll have enough charge to get back to the other end, but there are disadvantages to everything of one sort or another

[Suzie]

1 hour ago, Zomboid said:

I could see battery units with in-platform charging provided at Southport being a solution to that kind of route. Comes with disadvantages if a train has to sit there for 20 minutes before it'll have enough charge to get back to the other end, but there are disadvantages to everything of one sort or another

Perhaps reinstate the 3rd rail to Moels Cop and charge up from DC on the way in and out...

[Suzie]

Surely if both the Southport and Kirkby lines can justify being double track they must be able to justify electrification, it is not like they are small single track branch lines...

[Zomboid]

They probably couldn't justify double track if they were built today for todays service. Having two tracks is just a hangover from history, and the limitations of absolute block working.

[jpendle]

23 hours ago, Suzie said:

Surely if both the Southport and Kirkby lines can justify being double track they must be able to justify electrification, it is not like they are small single track branch lines...

The Kirkby line has been singled from Rainford, and the MerseyRail bit is single to Fazackerley.

 

Regards,

 

John P

[jamie92208]

I've just had a look at the NR website and the Church Fenton scheme seems to be progressing well. Has anyone noted if the wires are creeping south from Colton.  

 

Also on the general Trans Pennine Route Upgrade page there is a link that shows in full the Transport and Works Act application.  This doesn't have the plans included but was quite interesting  to skim read ( I used to read Acts of Parliament when I was working).  it's interesting that clause 3 refers to the Railwsy Clauses Act of 1845 which is still in force. Much of the section relating to the actual works refers to the Dewsbury and Manchester Act of 1836.  It's over 175 years since these were passed and they are still being used.

 

Jamie

Edited November 9, 2021 by jamie92208

[31A]

6 minutes ago, jamie92208 said:

I've just had a look at the NR website and the Church Fenton scheme seems to be progressing well. Has anyone noted if the wires are creeping south from Colton.  

 

Also on yhe general Trans Pennine Route Upgrade page there is a link that shows in full the Transport and Works Act application.  This doesn't have the plans included but was quite interesting  to skin read ( I used to read Acts of Parliament when I was working).  it's interesting that clause 3 refers to the Railwsy Clauses Act if 1845 which is still in force. Much of the section relating yo ghe actual works refers to the Dewsbury and Manchester Act of 1836.  It's over 175 years since thise were passed and thryvare still being used.

 

Jamie

 

I went along that line a few times last weekend, and no sign of any wires up yet.  I think I've read the completion date is October next year, so quite a while left to do it yet!  Also, not sign of any masts at Church Fenton station itself; they seem to run out just short.  I'm not sure whether the station will be included when it's finished, or not.

[4630]

I'm not getting my hopes up just yet as I believe that Network Rail's Transport & Works Act (T&W Act) application for the work between Dewsbury and Huddersfield hasn't been formally approved yet.

 

Whilst at Colne Bridge, east of Huddersfield, on 9th November 2021 to photograph Rail Operations Group's 37611 taking a pair of TransPennine Express Mark5 Nova 3 sets to Scarborough - photos here for anyone interested - I noticed some prominent markings on the ground adjacent to the bridge that I was standing on.

 

 

 

 

 

I'm a regular visitor to this location and I believe these markings are new, as I don't recall them being there on my last visit.

 

This bridge, which provides vehicular access to part of Yorkshire Water's treatment works, along with several others to the west between Colne Bridge and Huddersfield are proposed for replacement under the latest Network Rail plans currently being considered under the T&W Act application.  Contractors were drilling bore holes around this bridge 2-3 months ago on one of my visits.

 

Google maps reference for the location here.

 

Can anyone with I presume a civils background, or an informed source, provide an answer to what the markings might be an indicator for.

 

 

 

 

Edited April 6, 2022 by 4630
re-upload photos.

[iands]

2 hours ago, 4630 said:

I'm not getting my hopes up just yet as I believe that Network Rail's Transport & Works Act (T&W Act) application for the work between Dewsbury and Huddersfield hasn't been formally approved yet.

 

Whilst at Colne Bridge, east of Huddersfield, on 9th November 2021 to photograph Rail Operations Group's 37611 taking a pair of TransPennine Express Mark5 Nova 3 sets to Scarborough - photos here for anyone interested - I noticed some prominent markings on the ground adjacent to the bridge that I was standing on.

 

 

 

I'm a regular visitor to this location and I believe these markings are new, as I don't recall them being there on my last visit.

 

This bridge, which provides vehicular access to part of Yorkshire Water's treatment works, along with several others to the west between Colne Bridge and Huddersfield are proposed for replacement under the latest Network Rail plans currently being considered under the T&W Act application.  Contractors were drilling bore holes around this bridge 2-3 months ago on one of my visits.

 

Google maps reference for the location here.

 

Can anyone with I presume a civils background, or an informed source, provide an answer to what the markings might be an indicator for.

 

 

 

 

Looks like they've been marking out for OLE stanchions. 

[4630]

3 minutes ago, iands said:

Looks like they've been marking out for OLE stanchions. 

Thanks for the input Ian.

Whilst obviously not ruling it out, my understanding of the plans is that that might be a little premature at this location.  Network Rail (NR) is planning to significantly change the track formation from two tracks to four.

 

I’d understood from NR’s plans that electrification would be simultaneous with the other significant civil engineering work along the route but that, as a layperson, is very much an assumption on my part.  

 

Intriguing.

 

 

[jamie92208]

It certainly wouldmake sense to do the track snd electrification  work as a joint project of some ki d. It might befor some trial pits to check out whst's down there..

 

Jamie

[4630]

11 minutes ago, jamie92208 said:

 It might befor some trial pits to check out whst's down there..

 

Jamie

That make sense, particularly if the trial bores from a few months ago that I mentioned   above threw up something that needed further investigation.  

[SHMD]

The Miles Plating and Guide Bridge to Stalybridge electrification schemes used this method to mark out the locations of the OHLE post positions. (Too many and regular to be signals / signs.)

 

After a couple of winters, they replaced the "now none existent" markings with wooden "sandbox" type squares and we are still waiting at Stalybridge.

 

 

Progress:-

 

Miles Platting to Stalybridge Electrification: -

Mile Platting new bridge and new curve alignment now in use and old track now lifted.

Piles and Bases almost to Ashton Moss Jn now.

 

Guide Bridge to Stalybridge Electrification: -

Some lineside growth cleared.

Wooden Sandboxes "Weathering" nicely.

 

 

Kev.

 

[Zomboid]

I don't think it means anything more than "do something here". You'd have to be directly involved for that to mean anything more. It's in about the right place with regard to the track to be an OLE structure, but it could be one of about a million other things too.

[d winpenny]

Plenty of these paint markings on the route as well as lots of embankment lineside vegetation clearance, between Huddersfield and Deighton there was some more pilot holes being drilled looking forward to some more heavy duty progress I believe there a big blockade due January time between York and Huddersfield as a lot of route learning if currently underway so we can bypass Leeds entirely (don’t know the actual plan for services so please don’t ask) and route learning refreshing on the Calder valley for most depots is picking up pace.

[jamie92208]

39 minutes ago, d winpenny said:

Plenty of these paint markings on the route as well as lots of embankment lineside vegetation clearance, between Huddersfield and Deighton there was some more pilot holes being drilled looking forward to some more heavy duty progress I believe there a big blockade due January time between York and Huddersfield as a lot of route learning if currently underway so we can bypass Leeds entirely (don’t know the actual plan for services so please don’t ask) and route learning refreshing on the Calder valley for most depots is picking up pace.

That ties in with what a friend in Castleford has just told me. Platform 2 at Cas is being brought back into use at the moment.  Talking to people on site the Kottingley trains are goi g to use it to increase capacity needed for diveraions due to electrification work at Leeds. I presume that the Church Fento to Leeds section is due to be done soon.

 

Jamie

[peanuts]

Tommorows MEN & other northern papers front page 

 

[Mark Saunders]

Looking at the picture would you by a used car from any of these?

[woodenhead]

Are those stars a rating or has the last word been censored - there are a number of options that may fit if indeed the promised spending is suddenly removed in favour of the south.

[Suzie]

It is Deja vu like the Blair years - lets cancel all infrastructure investment and waste more money in a big hole like the NHS etc.

 

Stupid thing is there has never been a cheaper time to borrow money, which makes the investment payback so much quicker.

 

I guess it would have helped if Covid had not destroyed ridership on the trains reducing the urgency of capacity improvements which is what they are really canning.