Jump to content
 

Overlap of livery changes in steam/diesel transition period


Chimer

Recommended Posts

  • RMweb Premium

I'm sure bits of my query have been answered before but my search attempts are bringing up hundreds of semi-related threads, so grateful if you would bear with me ....... I know some of you will be able to answer off the top of your heads.

 

Variety being the spice of life, etc., I'd like to feature as many options as possible in my LMR steam/diesel transition layout.  I know any change of livery takes time, sometimes years, so I can run happily run examples of both sides of any individual change together - but I suspect some changes were completed before others began, so pre-change examples of the first changes wouldn't have been seen alongside post-change examples of the later ones (too many changes in that sentence, but hopefully it makes sense).

 

The changes that interest me (there may be others that should) are:

 

Suburban coaching stock - Crimson to Maroon

Corridor coaching stock - Blood & Custard to Maroon

Fitted freight vehicles - Early to Late Bauxite 

DMUs - Speed Whiskers to Small Yellow Panels

Green diesel locos - Introduction of Small Yellow Panels

Steam locos - Early to Late Crest (and I suspect here the change may have been completed for the top-link named locos much sooner than for the humble worker bees?)

Introduction of OHLE warning flashes.

 

Strictly British Railways, not British Rail, so not worried about when Blue came into the equation.

 

As an example of my thinking, I suspect Crimson suburbans may have vanished before Small Yellow Panels appeared on DMUs, so strictly they shouldn't be seen together.  Rule 1 applies, of course, but I do like to know when I am using it in the face of reality!

 

So what I'm really after is an approximate date range for each change, from first sightings of the new to last (regular-ish?) sightings of the old.  Hopefully there will be a week in the middle where everything overlaps!  And I should perhaps admit that my railway modelling is too impressionist for me to worry about when specific individual locos or units underwent the change...... 

 

Thanks in advance

 

Chris

Link to post
Share on other sites

...Variety being the spice of life, etc., I'd like to feature as many options as possible in my LMR steam/diesel transition layout.  I know any change of livery takes time, sometimes years, so I can run happily run examples of both sides of any individual change together - but I suspect some changes were completed before others began, so pre-change examples of the first changes wouldn't have been seen alongside post-change examples of the later ones (too many changes in that sentence, but hopefully it makes sense).

 

The changes that interest me (there may be others that should) are:

 

Suburban coaching stock - Crimson to Maroon

DMUs - Speed Whiskers to Small Yellow Panels

Green diesel locos - Introduction of Small Yellow Panels

Steam locos - Early to Late Crest (and I suspect here the change may have been completed for the top-link named locos much sooner than for the humble worker bees?)

Introduction of OHLE warning flashes.

 

 As an example of my thinking, I suspect Crimson suburbans may have vanished before Small Yellow Panels appeared on DMUs, so strictly they shouldn't be seen together.  Rule 1 applies, of course, but I do like to know when I am using it in the face of reality!...

 Those can all be permed in all combinations in my opinion.

 

Frexample, a well known pic of 10000 on Camden bank heading a down stopper 4 Jun 1962, Colour Rail DE 18/J

 

Loco in all over green, OHLE flashes, leading coach crimson, following three lined maroon.

 

Many 'little old' steamers went to the breakers still in early crest, if you could see it - LMR filth being legendary - and yellow panels on DMU and diesel fronts took a couple of years to become widespread on classes which had gone into service without them.

Link to post
Share on other sites

...

 

Suburban coaching stock - Crimson to Maroon

Corridor coaching stock - Blood & Custard to Maroon

Fitted freight vehicles - Early to Late Bauxite

DMUs - Speed Whiskers to Small Yellow Panels

Green diesel locos - Introduction of Small Yellow Panels

Steam locos - Early to Late Crest (and I suspect here the change may have been completed for the top-link named locos much sooner than for the humble worker bees?)

Introduction of OHLE warning flashes.

 

...

My twopenneth from memory:

 

Change to maroon and later totem, late 56 but some engines never carried the totem and at least two of those are preserved.

 

Don't know about wagon bauxite exactly but I thought about 63.

 

SYP mid 63, on all non-steam traction.

 

Electric warning flashes 64 (?).

 

Be aware that not all coaches were lined out and many steam engines in the 60s were just plain black not lined black. Best to check photos/videos.

 

HTH

Link to post
Share on other sites

  • RMweb Gold

 Those can all be permed in all combinations in my opinion.

 

Frexample, a well known pic of 10000 on Camden bank heading a down stopper 4 Jun 1962, Colour Rail DE 18/J

 

Loco in all over green, OHLE flashes, leading coach crimson, following three lined maroon.

 

Many 'little old' steamers went to the breakers still in early crest, if you could see it - LMR filth being legendary - and yellow panels on DMU and diesel fronts took a couple of years to become widespread on classes which had gone into service without them.

Not sure if that first coach was dirty Crimson or unlined Maroon. It looks quite similar to the rest of the train. Incidentally, a copy of the full picture appeared recently on a foreign Ebay site and it appears to have a Sulzer D5000 series Type 2 banking.

Link to post
Share on other sites

The change in wagon bauxite was co-incident with the introduction of the 'boxed-in' style of lettering in 1964. The size of the wagon fleet meant that most maintenance work was carried on in local workshops, who paid little heed to changes in colours if they did repaint. Sometimes the wagon number details would be repainted in the new style, over a patch of new paint, but this paint would be whatever was in the stores. It was quite common for the 'unboxed' lettering to remain, but with a single, small, box for the wagon type. This even lasted into TOPS days, a decade or more later. See Paul Bartlett's site for numerous shots of 'legacy' liveries on freight stock.

Here's a BR Vanfit with pre-1964 lettering, but with a post-1964 code, and also a TOPS code:- http://paulbartlett.zenfolio.com/brvanplanked/h3e4aa7d1#h3e4aa7d1

and, just to show this wasn't unique:- http://paulbartlett.zenfolio.com/brvanplanked/h1244d2d2#h1244d2d2

Electrification flashes started to appear from the end of the 1950s onwards, I believe.

Link to post
Share on other sites

I'm sure bits of my query have been answered before but my search attempts are bringing up hundreds of semi-related threads, so grateful if you would bear with me ....... I know some of you will be able to answer off the top of your heads.

 

Variety being the spice of life, etc., I'd like to feature as many options as possible in my LMR steam/diesel transition layout.  I know any change of livery takes time, sometimes years, so I can run happily run examples of both sides of any individual change together - but I suspect some changes were completed before others began, so pre-change examples of the first changes wouldn't have been seen alongside post-change examples of the later ones (too many changes in that sentence, but hopefully it makes sense).

 

The changes that interest me (there may be others that should) are:

 

Suburban coaching stock - Crimson to Maroon

Corridor coaching stock - Blood & Custard to Maroon

Fitted freight vehicles - Early to Late Bauxite 

DMUs - Speed Whiskers to Small Yellow Panels

Green diesel locos - Introduction of Small Yellow Panels

Steam locos - Early to Late Crest (and I suspect here the change may have been completed for the top-link named locos much sooner than for the humble worker bees?)

Introduction of OHLE warning flashes.

 

Strictly British Railways, not British Rail, so not worried about when Blue came into the equation.

 

As an example of my thinking, I suspect Crimson suburbans may have vanished before Small Yellow Panels appeared on DMUs, so strictly they shouldn't be seen together.  Rule 1 applies, of course, but I do like to know when I am using it in the face of reality!

 

So what I'm really after is an approximate date range for each change, from first sightings of the new to last (regular-ish?) sightings of the old.  Hopefully there will be a week in the middle where everything overlaps!  And I should perhaps admit that my railway modelling is too impressionist for me to worry about when specific individual locos or units underwent the change...... 

 

Thanks in advance

 

Chris

 

 

I would say that from your list above, you could mix all of those variables, but the frequency of occurrence would vary in the time frame (say) 1958-67.

 

The frequency of crimson & cream stock in any train was quite high up until 1959, when it seemed to decrease rather rapidly on main line services; resulting in very few of that livery being present in any particular train during 1961.  There were more around on secondary services, but that was mainly because the stock was about to be withdrawn, and it made less sense to repaint them.

 

I think speed whiskers were introduced around 1958/9, so for a mid-late 50s time frame you could have certain early dmus with plain green cab fronts. There are relatively few photos of them in this condition as seen here - https://www.flickr.com/photos/robertcwp/5688278934/in/photolist-pNVa2z-haxKrm-mm8CuT-9EDV9J-ktdGMi-bN65B6-6G9aTg-9eR4sc-pfNoSk-axXzVN-eKpmfP-8rdqHr-o6FV51-7567Pz-haySrZ-axUTD4-aC1S3L-bDJC33-9VBXZx-9RG9JC 

so without trawling through many magazines of the period for photos of brand new dmu classes, it is a minefield to know which ones to have plain. 

 

I was always under the impression that electric warning flashes appeared in 1961, but maybe I have that wrong.

 

So basically, if you are going to have a majority of the earlier options, early BR totems, crimson or crimson & cream stock and no yellow panels on dmus, it would be best to cut down on the later adornments, such as small yellow panels and vice versa.

 

My advice would be to visit Youtube and watch as many late 50s/early 60s railway clips as you can. You will tend to get a feel for the varying frequencies of your parameters that way, and it is a very enjoyable way of spending a cold, wet winters evening.

Link to post
Share on other sites

  • RMweb Gold

The first reference I can throw in at the moment for yellow warning panels is from railblue.com refering to D5695 and D5699 getting half yellow panels at Stratford in December 1961. Class 20s atarted to get them from about February 1962, with Swindon Works also applying them to locos passing through.

Link to post
Share on other sites

The first reference I can throw in at the moment for yellow warning panels is from railblue.com refering to D5695 and D5699 getting half yellow panels at Stratford in December 1961. Class 20s atarted to get them from about February 1962, with Swindon Works also applying them to locos passing through.

Note that the earliest SYPs on the Brush type 2s were just that - panels, fixed to the loco. ends

Link to post
Share on other sites

On the yellow panel subject the BTC’s Operating Committee decided on 3 July 1959 to commission a series of visibility tests. The purpose was to determine if locomotives and multiple-units with distinctive markings would aid trackside staff. Following the tests involving several types of marking and stock, the British Railway Sub-Commission on 23 July 1961 decided that yellow warning panels should be adopted as standard. The shape of the panel was to be devised by the Design Panel for each locomotive type.

 

Hope this helps.

 

Simon

Link to post
Share on other sites

Archived

This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.

×
×
  • Create New...