Jump to content
 

Doric Arch


rodent279

Recommended Posts

N

 

If you look at this map http://maps.nls.uk/view/101201523it is at the top RH corner (jolly unhelpful that Euston falls right at the intersection of four sheets!), and if you then use the adjacent sheets, you can get a "fix" from the position of the two lodges, and from St Pancras Church.

 

My reading is that arch was roughly where the pub that is now called The Doric Arch (didn't it used to be called The Head of Steam?) is, and if you find the right sheet, the Great Hall is clearly visible.

 

Kevin

Link to post
Share on other sites

It's easier to see where the old, lost features were in relation to the current ones if you use the side-by-side georeferenced maps feature on the NLS site.  It also removes the joins between the sheets of the old maps so you can scroll left & right, and up & down without a break.  Here is the link for the Euston area.  The Arch was on Drummond Street, with the Post Office next to it.  The centre of the Great Hall lies approximately 100m NNW of the Arch.

Link to post
Share on other sites

Thanks for that. S o it was right in the middle if the new station?

Looks like it was about mid way along the row of shops, about where WHSmith is?

 

Pretty much yes, it was just to the left of the center of the concourse as you come in, thats why they had to knock it down, it was "in the middle" of what they wanted to build.

Link to post
Share on other sites

I think the 'arch' was roughly where the ramp down to the suburban platforms 7-10 now is, and directly over the down escalator shaft from the Underground ticket hall.  It was way north of where most people think it was. Drummond Street once ran right across the front of the station and the arch was to the north of that street. The truncated Drummond Street is still there on the west side and the eastern end is called Doric Way. Post-war, I think part of Drummond Street to the east of the arch was blocked off or built over.  The Great Hall was even further to the north.

 

The war memorial (still I think in the same place) is behind the photographer. You can see the columns of the arch beyond the hotel:

 

17904975962_344cc359d7.jpgEuston_old-hotel-station by Robert Carroll, on Flickr

Link to post
Share on other sites

  • RMweb Gold

Thanks all. Looking at the NLS site, with 1920's maps overlaid onto Bing streetmaps, the arch, or portico as it should be called, was at grid ref 529553, 182710, which, as Robert says, would seem to put it somewhere on the ramps down to the present day suburban platforms. With the Great Hall a clear 100m or so further north, and from the look of it, other associated buildings around, it's difficult to see how extending the platforms south would have been possible if the both had been retained.

 

Now don't get me wrong, I'm not saying they should have been demolished. I'm sure that the portico at least could have been relocated, and on Euston Road between the two 1870's lodges would seem to be the best place, but I think it would have been very difficult to relocate the hall, and that, arguably, was the more significant of the two. Personally, I'm not a great fan of the portico. I don't think it was particularly attractive, and it would not really be in keeping with a modern railway station. I like the modern Euston, but that great open space has been well & truly spoiled by all the retail outlets. From the photos I've seen, the old Euston was cramped, dingy, with little or no real style. The "new" Euston works much better, both for the passengers, and for the railway operators. Rather than simply copy the past, I'd prefer to see something retaining the best of the existing Euston, and with a new, modern take on the portico.

 

Rant over, I'll get my tin hat & take cover before I get shot down in flames!

 

cheers N

Link to post
Share on other sites

Unfortunately the 1960s were all about brutalist architecture.

 

If you look at what the government did elsewhere in the Country at the time (and to avoid infringing RMW's non-political rules I will point out that both the red and blue parties of the 1960's have my utter contempt) it is not surprising.

 

Concrete was the new modern. History was something no longer important. That many other Countries managed to advance forward without destroying their heritage was largely irrelevant.

 

Don't forget that there were attempts in the 1980's to demolish Kings Cross and/ or St. Pancras and rebuild them with "simpler" buildings.

Link to post
Share on other sites

  • RMweb Gold

When the Doric Arch was demolished it couldn't have been moved up to Euston Road as at that time the plans were that there would be a 300-ft high hotel between the station and the road - along with four tower blocks over the station. These plans were dropped in 1963 when permission was refused by the LCC.

 

Rob 

Link to post
Share on other sites

The UK wasn't the only place to destroy things. In New York, they destroyed the very fine Penn Station buildings to put Madison Square Garden over the station.  That might have helped save Grand Central, just as the annihilation of Euston probably helped save St Pancras.  However, in fairness, the old Euston would have been totally unsuited to the needs of the electrified WCML. When the first parts of old Euston were built, no one really had any idea how to build a mainline railway station. The LMS had planned to demolish the whole lot and start again but the War intervened.

 

I had almost 14 years of regular use of Euston going to and from the Underground (the office where I worked was just outside). It's an awful place, much too small for the number of people using it, even after the shops were mostly removed from the middle of the concourse. There is now a new deck above part of the concourse and finding your way out from the Underground to the outside world is now even more difficult that it used to be unless you use the stairs rather than the escalators up from the Underground ticket hall area. The piazza outside is a kind of open air concourse extension, complete with departure boards.  It looks even more hideous when you look down on it from a nearby office window.

Link to post
Share on other sites

Something that this thread highlights is just how easy it is to "lose" even quite major structures or other features. The Doric Arch and the Great Hall existed well within living memory and yet here is a thread suggesting that, for many interested parties, their precise location is unknown or, at least, uncertain.

 

I think the underlying message here is the need to record everything you can while you can, because if it disappears it can do so completely, at which point you may find that no-one else bothered, or, at least, did so in a form available to you.

 

Whilst not  specifically railway related, I used to consider myself to be pretty familiar with both Newcastle and Bristol, but now, less than 20 years after leaving the UK, occasional visits combined with nostalgic use of Street View indicate that there are huge tracts of both cities which are completely unrecognisable to me. For example, confining myself to on-line sources, I can't find any pictures of the outside of St James's Park stadium prior to its most recent rebuild, nor can I find much worthwhile regarding Gallowgate bus station. Both major features of the area, both of which I knew well and yet details of which which are now largely gone from my memory.

 

So take that camera with you wherever you go, annotate maps, make sketches and notes, do anything you need to in order to record even the apparently mundane. Just be careful the anti-terrorist squad don't notice you ;).

Link to post
Share on other sites

Something that this thread highlights is just how easy it is to "lose" even quite major structures or other features. The Doric Arch and the Great Hall existed well within living memory and yet here is a thread suggesting that, for many interested parties, their precise location is unknown or, at least, uncertain.

 

Agreed but my memory of the Great Hall is quite limited! For a short while my Dad had an office towards the front of the building and I do remember walking down the magnificent staircase from his office to the waiting hall. We also went to Blackpool lights on the night the clocks changed, and being an hour early back into Euston we waited in the GH until the Underground opened (it would have been a Sunday morning so the trains were probably quite late in starting up). 

 

At least I can go and see Stephensons statue any time I like, only 10 minutes walk away now! http://www.nrm.org.uk/OurCollection/RunningTheRailway/CollectionItem.aspx?objid=1975-7513:sungum:

 

Paul

Link to post
Share on other sites

  • RMweb Gold

Unfortunately the 1960s were all about brutalist architecture.

 

If you look at what the government did elsewhere in the Country at the time (and to avoid infringing RMW's non-political rules I will point out that both the red and blue parties of the 1960's have my utter contempt) it is not surprising.

 

Concrete was the new modern. History was something no longer important. That many other Countries managed to advance forward without destroying their heritage was largely irrelevant.

 

Don't forget that there were attempts in the 1980's to demolish Kings Cross and/ or St. Pancras and rebuild them with "simpler" buildings.

 

Not more CLASP buildings, I hope?

 

Seriously though - and most definitely not a party political point - far too many good or interesting structures have been lost over the years.

 

Also, far too often, their replacements (far from being better / more relevant to what's really needed) have turned out to be of inferior design and build quality, with serious "fitness for purpose" issues. The expression "buy cheap - pay dear" often springs to mind (well my mind, anyway).

 

I'm also far from convinced that there's always been enough public scrutiny of the decisions - or opportunities for meaningful public input into the decision making process.

 

I'm sure that many of us could think of loads of examples of this sort of nonsense - under governments and councils of a wide range of political colours - I wish there were some way of making it stop, but I'm sure that history will repeat itself (if not here, then elsewhere).

 

 

Ultimately, though, I don't think this thread is about politics. It's about research - and. ultimately, about heritage.

 

There is an increasing amount of disgraceful "architecture" in this country - diabolical buildings - some of which are so bad that some locals are even calling for their demolition before they're completed. Unfortunately, this stuff isn't likely to improve any time soon.

 

However, there's also still some good stuff - I hope the "powers that be" recognise this (and treat it right) before it's too late.

 

In the meantime, all that we can do is ensure that records (including photos) are made and kept, for the benefit of future generations.

 

Huw.

Link to post
Share on other sites

  • RMweb Premium

.  However, in fairness, the old Euston would have been totally unsuited to the needs of the electrified WCML. When the first parts of old Euston were built, no one really had any idea how to build a mainline railway station. The LMS had planned to demolish the whole lot and start again but the War intervened.

 

 

That's a bit unfair, when Euston was first built, no one had any real idea of how train travel would take off. Euston was built out in the field of Euston Grove. The Doric Arch was a gateway to reassure passengers of the day, that what lay beyond, was a serious enterprise.

 

The original train shed had 2 platforms, one for arrivals & one for departures! Train travel was seen as something that only the gentry could possibly afford to travel on (OK perhaps not a lot has changed!). I can't find a copy of the original timetable, but from memory, there weren't many trains per day.

 

Because of the huge growth, Euston was expanded several times, on either side of the Great Hall, thus making it very inconvenient. In a way its not surprising that neither the arch or hall were saved, as both were awkwardly located, right in the centre of the site.

 

I agree that the destruction of Euston helped St Pancras & King Cross survive, but neither were as inconvenient as Euston.

Link to post
Share on other sites

It's not just the losses at Euston. I can't help but think that the old building at Manchester (Piccadilly) would have been a lot better (suitably restored) than the present unsightly jumble of buildings erected in its place, which were never completed as intended. Would probably have saved money too.

 

I think in the 60s there was an obsessed with 'being modern' that caused many perfectly adequate old buildings to be swept away. 

Link to post
Share on other sites

It's not just the losses at Euston. I can't help but think that the old building at Manchester (Piccadilly) would have been a lot better (suitably restored) than the present unsightly jumble of buildings erected in its place, which were never completed as intended. Would probably have saved money too.

 

I think in the 60s there was an obsessed with 'being modern' that caused many perfectly adequate old buildings to be swept away. 

Are you referring to the 1960s building or the one that replaced it in around 2001?  I would agree with you on the former but I think the current building is pretty good with the exception of the through platforms which I think are largely unchanged since being modified sometime in the 80s.  The trainshed survived both rebuilds and is pretty impressive too.

Link to post
Share on other sites

Archived

This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.

×
×
  • Create New...