DC or DCC?

[richbrummitt]

I had a gaugemaster controller, now defunct, and also the controller (Minitrix) branded that came in my first train set about 18 years ago. I will be purchasing a new controller, but am undecided what to get. I was thinking of a coast/regulator and brake type DC controller, but DCC is compelling for the (I am told) improved starting and slow running and the possibility to characterise locomotives with realistic performance attributes. If I am going to purchase a DCC controller, which unit should I plump for.

 

Some pointers: I model in 2mm scale. I am building a layout of a single track branch line type layout of 6ft scenic length. This will be typical of future requirements also (maybe double track at a push). I have only two locomotives at present. I am unlikely to want to add switches to the system, but do not want to rule this out unnecessarily. My budget is modest.

[tebee]

Well, I'm a man who loves his DCC, but in your situation I would not use it. I'd rather spend those limited resources on something else.

 

You are not going to get a lot flexibility in control over DCC on such a small layout. You will have all the problems of trying to fit decoders in 2 mm locos and no matter how small the the decoder is it still means a little less space for weight.

 

My thoughts anyway

 

Tom

[Donw]

If you are modelling a steam age branch line fitting decoders into small locos can be hard. However if you feel up to it there are benefits from DCC. Whether DC or DCC good pick-up from the track is essential.

If you opt for DCC the Lenz compact is a viable option. The is some restriction on the F buttons but unless you are going for sound that is not a problem ( not all bigger systems have all the F keys). If you then want to upgrade to the Lenz set01 or 90 the compact can be used as an extra controller. There is also a hand held controller to work with the compact (LH30 I think) which can also be used with the bigger systems.

Donw

[Nigelcliffe]

I had a gaugemaster controller, now defunct, and also the controller (Minitrix) branded that came in my first train set about 18 years ago. I will be purchasing a new controller, but am undecided what to get. I was thinking of a coast/regulator and brake type DC controller, but DCC is compelling for the (I am told) improved starting and slow running and the possibility to characterise locomotives with realistic performance attributes. If I am going to purchase a DCC controller, which unit should I plump for.

 

Some pointers: I model in 2mm scale. I am building a layout of a single track branch line type layout of 6ft scenic length. This will be typical of future requirements also (maybe double track at a push). I have only two locomotives at present. I am unlikely to want to add switches to the system, but do not want to rule this out unnecessarily. My budget is modest.

 

Well, I model in 2mm and have no problem getting chips into things (I own an 02 shunter chipped, in the bonnet, not cab, locos with couplers controlled from the decoder chip, etc).

Happy to have a chat at a 2mm event about what can be done, what the problems are, etc.. But, its not cheap; quality small chips are £30 per loco and a decent controller will run to at least £200 (in my view of what is actually required). It seems overkill for what you have described unless you have a particular interest in getting into DCC.

 

For what you say above, I'd get a quality analogue controller. Possibly drop the supply voltage ny a few volts, which, in turn, will drop the track voltage.

 

Consider the Pictroller from Malcom's Miniatures ; http://www.malcolmsminiatures.co.uk/mr_ctrl.html Its the replacement for the Pentroller. Though ask for a demo of it on a 2mm model (slightly worried about the sensing circuit causing a "kick" to motors), I've not seen it used on 2mm models yet.

[richbrummitt]

Well, I model in 2mm and have no problem getting chips into things (I own an 02 shunter chipped, in the bonnet, not cab, locos with couplers controlled from the decoder chip, etc).

Happy to have a chat at a 2mm event about what can be done, what the problems are, etc.. But, its not cheap; quality small chips are £30 per loco and a decent controller will run to at least £200 (in my view of what is actually required). It seems overkill for what you have described unless you have a particular interest in getting into DCC.

 

For what you say above, I'd get a quality analogue controller. Possibly drop the supply voltage ny a few volts, which, in turn, will drop the track voltage.

 

Consider the Pictroller from Malcom's Miniatures ; http://www.malcolmsm...uk/mr_ctrl.html Its the replacement for the Pentroller. Though ask for a demo of it on a 2mm model (slightly worried about the sensing circuit causing a "kick" to motors), I've not seen it used on 2mm models yet.

 

I've looked at this controller and it seems not a direct replacement because the brake is discrete (unless I am mistaken) whereas the pentroller had a continuous brake. It is much less than £200, but spending £85 to have the hand held plug in as well and then deciding I should have spent not much more than twice is a bigger waste in my opinion.

 

My locomotives have 12mm Mashima flat cans at the moment so they should be okay on most controllers but I have a locomotive under construction that I could only get an 8v motor in. Decoder costs aren't really an issue at £30. An average loco costs about that in wheels before considering the time investment.

 

I'm not fussed one way or the other about 'getting into DCC' as it has been put, but improving the quality of the layout operation. I haven't tried it to know enough about what can be achieved with any of the different sets, but do have a clear idea of how I'd like the trains to respond to user input and I think this might be better achieved by DCC. I am led to believe that all things being equal in loco and track a loco will work better on DCC. Would that be a true statement?

[Brian]

I had a gaugemaster controller, now defunct, and also the controller (Minitrix) branded that came in my first train set about 18 years ago. I will be purchasing a new controller, but am undecided what to get. I was thinking of a coast/regulator and brake type DC controller, but DCC is compelling for the (I am told) improved starting and slow running and the possibility to characterise locomotives with realistic performance attributes. If I am going to purchase a DCC controller, which unit should I plump for.

 

Some pointers: I model in 2mm scale. I am building a layout of a single track branch line type layout of 6ft scenic length. This will be typical of future requirements also (maybe double track at a push). I have only two locomotives at present. I am unlikely to want to add switches to the system, but do not want to rule this out unnecessarily. My budget is modest.

Hi

If you have a Gaugemaster dc controller, it is covered by their lifetime warranty. So why not get it repaired?

I would still stick with GM dc controllers, as before I went over to DCC, I hadn't found a better unit at the same price!

 

As for DCC, depending on you budget, I would be looking at ether the entry level NCE PowerCab which can be upgrade to a higher spec. Or the initially higher spec'd and more available current (5Amp or 10Amp) NCE PowerPro system.

NCE DCC systems

[Nigelcliffe]

I've looked at this controller and it seems not a direct replacement because the brake is discrete (unless I am mistaken) whereas the pentroller had a continuous brake. It is much less than £200, but spending £85 to have the hand held plug in as well and then deciding I should have spent not much more than twice is a bigger waste in my opinion.

 

My locomotives have 12mm Mashima flat cans at the moment so they should be okay on most controllers but I have a locomotive under construction that I could only get an 8v motor in. Decoder costs aren't really an issue at £30. An average loco costs about that in wheels before considering the time investment.

 

I'm not fussed one way or the other about 'getting into DCC' as it has been put, but improving the quality of the layout operation. I haven't tried it to know enough about what can be achieved with any of the different sets, but do have a clear idea of how I'd like the trains to respond to user input and I think this might be better achieved by DCC. I am led to believe that all things being equal in loco and track a loco will work better on DCC. Would that be a true statement?

 

I think the running improvement comes mainly from matching the controlling device (DCC chip) with the motor/locomotive drive. In analogue the controlling device is an average for several locos, mounted a long way from the loco. The track pickup may be marginally better due to the higher voltage and the high frequency signal on the voltage.

 

Your 8v motor shouldn't be a problem with either DCC or DC control; its just a matter of not overloading the motor. If its any comfort, there have been locos trundling round layouts such as Copenhagen Fields with 3v and 6v motors on a 12v control system.

 

 

The biggest issue on selecting a DCC system is getting the right system. That is one that works in your hands well and does what you need.

I have driven my own locos on a variety of controllers, and find that the control interface (knobs, pushbuttons, knob size, knob location, etc) alters my perception of how the loco should respond; the settings I have made in locos for my own controller do not necessary work well with some other throttles (feeding into the same command station, so its not altering the track signals, just the human interface perception of what is happening).

The only major technical consideration for 2mm is that the track voltage is towards the lower end of the range, say 13-15v. Lower may be better.

In my view some sort of computer interface, compatible with the JMRI software suite, becomes necessary after a short while to setup CV's in decoders (aka "Programming"); in my experience, to get good running with small motors takes a bit more programming effort than larger motors in OO.

 

Suggest this very long article as background reading on DCC before spending any money. Whilst 80 pages long, you can skip out some sections:

http://www.mickmoignard.com/MickMoignard/mickmoignard.nsf/dx/resources.htm

 

 

 

( There is a cheap way of getting a wireless DCC system for 2mm use if you already own a laptop and an iPhone or iPod Touch; a £60 Sprog for the DCC hardware, and a $10 software throttle for the iPhone, and the free JMRI software package for the computer. It can run several locos simultaneously, the current limit of 1A is not an issue in 2mm (arguably an advantage of a low current limit). Its an expensive solution if you don't already have the computer and iPhone/Touch parts to hand ).

 

 

 

- Nigel

[richbrummitt]

Okay, I'm done deciding. Thanks guys.

[cromptonnut]

I am led to believe that all things being equal in loco and track a loco will work better on DCC.

 

To a degree, as the constant 16v to the track, with the decoder choosing what voltage to send to the motor, does help.

 

However, if your loco runs badly on DC, it's not going to be miraculously fixed by chipping it. A good loco will run better, but a bad loco will stay bad.

 

Good regular maintenance, clean pickups on as many wheels as possible, and clean, well laid track, will do more than any chip can to improve performance.

[Pete the Elaner]

DCC brings differences, but whether or not these are benefits depends on what you want.

 

You mention a Gaugemaster simulator 'troller. Is this important to you & have you used one? If so, what are your thoughts?

If you want decent acceleration & deceleration, then DCC can help with this.

 

The important consideration about slow running is that the weakest connection is between rail & wheels. With DC, this will be a low voltage at low speed. With DCC, it will always be maximum.

[Revolution Ben]

Rich,

 

You mentioned above that you had made your decision.

 

I am in a similar position to you, and have been following this thread with interest. I'd be interested to know what your final decision is/was, and the reasoning.

 

cheers

 

Ben A.

[richbrummitt]

Rich,

 

You mentioned above that you had made your decision.

 

I am in a similar position to you, and have been following this thread with interest. I'd be interested to know what your final decision is/was, and the reasoning.

 

cheers

 

Ben A.

 

Ben,

 

I am hoping to get the DC controller from Malcolms Miniature's for my birthday in just under a fortnight. I read all the (what I felt were) relevant parts of the DCC information in the link that Nigel posted up and have decided that I will spend a lot of time and effort getting the results I would like from DCC for what might only be an unnoticeable improvement in starting and slow running ability. The systems that I would wish to look at seem to have a very different user interface than I would like too. For example I would not get on with the tumbwheel on the NCE cab.

 

To answer the previous post the simulation (or equivalent) is important to me. I have used Pentrollers on other peoples layouts and it amused me greatly, but I don't think I'll obtain one so easily. My gaugemaster controller was only ever hooked up to an HO switching layout which took it's last outing to the tip a year ago. It was a handheld and the simulation is on a thumb wheel mounted on the side of the unit. I didn't like this arrangement. The panel/cased version with two knobs will probably be better, but it is more expensive than the above mentioned controller.

[Pete the Elaner]

I would not get on with the tumbwheel on the NCE cab.

 

Powercab/Procab also have fast & fine up/down speed buttons, so you are not tied down to either control method.

 

Ben,

Have you got any other requirements, or are yours just about exaclty the same as Rich's?