North West Frontier

[Mad Carew Too]

I have been thinking of an Indian-based model railway (just thinking - no more than that so far!).   For scale my inclination is 4 mm due to availability of figures, although 3 mm fits the gauges better (16.5 mm = 5'6", 9 mm = metre approx, 6.5 mm = 2'6" approx).    S scale (1:64) is another possibility - so 16.5 mm is approx metre gauge, and 12 mm is narrow gauge- and could 1.72 figures be used?  

 

For 4 mm, I am thinking of 9 mm narrow gauge.   There were some of these lines on the northwest frontier.   Have a look at Red Box model soldiers in 1:72 - both British colonial and Afghan warriors.   There are a couple of possibilities for outside frame chassis  - Rocco HOe 0-6-0 and Graham Farish 08 class diesel shunter with cylinders and motion available from RT models, or for smaller 0-4-0, Minitrains F&C.   I recommend joining the 009 Society where a number of members have built models of colonial lines. Charlie Insley exhibited his Fort Whiting at Warley this year.  

 

Good luck,    

 

Edward

 

Thank you!

 

I, too, feel much more comfortable modelling in 4mm.

 

S is a 3/16th to 1 foot.  This is a little shy of 5mm to 1 foot.  I suspect that will be too large for most nominally 1/72nd figures.  The S Gauge Society suggests that 28mm wargames figures are suitable (http://www.s-scale.org.uk/figures.htm).  If so, these will be very noticeably bigger than 1/72nd.  This is a minefield, however, as the nominal scale expressed in millimetres (which refers to the distance from the sole of the foot to the eyes, and not to the overall height of the figure) can be misleading as there is plenty of "scale creep" in the wargames world. 

 

For 4mm, quite a few nominally 1/76 figures are too tall.  Edwardian explored this at some point on his Castle Aching topic, comparing Mike Pett figures with Dapol and Staddens,the latter being scrupulously to scale.

 

Some nominally 1/72 figures can be more like 1/76, e.g. some of the older Airfix military figure sets, though the trend is towards being taller than the nominal scale.

 

Where does that leave us?  Well I am pretty relaxed at the prospect of using 1/72nd figures for 4mm.  For the military side of the North West Frontier, I would be cautious about the Red Box, as their colonial era figures are very crude.  For Pathan tribesmen, the best set is the Esci 'Muslim Warriors', though I think they are out of production and most of the set are for the Sudan! 

 

For British and Indian Army, I would recommend HaT Industrie figures.  Though they don't do any British Infantry, the majority of infantry in any formation were Indian.  Edwardian and I have both swapped heads with the WW1 Indian infantry, which, are another option for the 1900s, and, again, in his Castle Aching topic, he posted comparison shots including the HaT WW1 figures.  I think he posted a comparison shot of one of these 1/72 plastic figures with Stadden's 1/76 Edwardian civilians, which might be a useful comparison for you?.

 

For 1/72 wargames figures, see http://www.plasticsoldierreview.com/PeriodList.aspx?period=34 and http://www.plasticsoldierreview.com/Review.aspx?id=2015

 

I am inclining to a mini-project in 4mm, based on metre gauge in Rajasthan, rather than NWF, and using 12mm track, even though not a perfect match.  I have not yet looked into narrow gauge. 

 

My main aim remains Indian Broad Gauge, but I remain daunted and short on sufficient prototype information for the period.

 

Best of luck with your endeavours!

Edited December 22, 2016 by Mad Carew Too

[Edwardian]

Thank you!

 

I, too, feel much more comfortable modelling in 4mm.

 

S is a 3/16th to 1 foot.  This is a little shy of 5mm to 1 foot.  I suspect that will be too large for most nominally 1/72nd figures.  The S Gauge Society suggests that 28mm wargames figures are suitable (http://www.s-scale.org.uk/figures.htm).  If so, these will be very noticeably bigger than 1/72nd.  This is a minefield, however, as the nominal scale expressed in millimetres (which refers to the distance from the sole of the foot to the eyes, and not to the overall height of the figure) can be misleading as there is plenty of "scale creep" in the wargames world. 

 

For 4mm, quite a few nominally 1/76 figures are too tall.  Edwardian explored this at some point on his Castle Aching topic, comparing Mike Pett figures with Dapol and Staddens,the latter being scrupulously to scale.

 

Some nominally 1/72 figures can be more like 1/76, e.g. some of the older Airfix military figure sets, though the trend is towards being taller than the nominal scale.

 

Where does that leave us?  Well I am pretty relaxed at the prospect of using 1/72nd figures for 4mm.  For the military side of the North West Frontier, I would be cautious about the Red Box, as their colonial era figures are very crude.  For Pathan tribesmen, the best set is the Esci 'Muslim Warriors', though I think they are out of production and most of the set are for the Sudan! 

 

For British and Indian Army, I would recommend HaT Industrie figures.  Though they don't do any British Infantry, the majority of infantry in any formation were Indian.  Edwardian and I have both swapped heads with the WW1 Indian infantry, which, are another option for the 1900s, and, again, in his Castle Aching topic, he posted comparison shots including the HaT WW1 figures.  I think he posted a comparison shot of one of these 1/72 plastic figures with Stadden's 1/76 Edwardian civilians, which might be a useful comparison for you?.

 

For 1/72 wargames figures, see http://www.plasticsoldierreview.com/PeriodList.aspx?period=34 and http://www.plasticsoldierreview.com/Review.aspx?id=2015

 

JMH,

 

I take the liberty of posting a link to the post you mention - http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/107713-castle-aching/page-11 (post #254). 

 

These are, indeed, HaT's WW1 Indian troops, and the comparison showed that they did not look too bad for size next to Stadden's  Edwardian Gent.  In fact, the nominally 1/76 Mike Pett Edwardian Gent fitted rather less well, as he was noticeably taller than the nominally 1/72nd Sepoys. 

 

As you mention, the heads are swappable, and the photographs show WW1 Indians with the original heads and with Sikh headdress heads from the Colonial Indian set.

[ed7]

A useful list of model scales - including various sizes of model soldiers, is at  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_scale_model_sizes

 

I am rather mytified by some of the scales claimed for 15, 20, 25 and 28 mm figures - at least based on the size of a person of this hieght.   But do model solider sizes include bases and headdresses?   

 

Edward

 

 

[Edwardian]

A useful list of model scales - including various sizes of model soldiers, is at  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_scale_model_sizes

 

I am rather mytified by some of the scales claimed for 15, 20, 25 and 28 mm figures - at least based on the size of a person of this hieght.   But do model solider sizes include bases and headdresses?   

 

Edward

 

 

 

No, as Mad Carew stated, the mm value represents the distance from sole of foot to eyes. This is because military figures invariably wear headdress, which is of varying height, so it is not practical to measure to the top of the head.  

 

15mm is about 1/100, ie 3mm Scale/TT

 

20mm scale is nearest 1/76 i.e. 4mm scale, though wargamers will often equate 20mm with 1/76 and 1/72 indiscriminately.

 

Everything else is too large for 4mm.  The traditional 25mm figure is rare these days, scale-creep having resulted in 28mm, but if you think that 25mm is to the eyes, this means someone who is at least 27mm tall, which is a bit of a push in a scale where 24mm = 6 feet.

[£1.38]

My thoughts are tending to a spin off project just to get started while I continue to wrestle with insufficient information and skills to attempt Indian Broad Gauge at the turn of the Century.

 

So, a very modest station (loop and a siding or 2) and just one or 2 locos and a little bit of stock, in 4mm scale, but using 12mm gauge track to represent (a little under scale) metre gauge.

 

The origin of metre gauge is interesting.  When narrower gauge  feeder lines were being proposed for the Indian Broad Gauge system in the 1870s, there was draft legislation to adopt the metric system for India, so, meter gauge was adopted, but, of course, India retained the Imperial system.  Apart from the gauge, all other standards were in Imperial, giving us a prototype precedent for the strange combination that is 4mm to 1 foot! 

 

This will allow me to use certain off the shelf elements, including track, wheel sets for stock, NG centre couplings and, perhaps, some plastic kits as a basis for stock conversions.  This is a gentler start than hand-built track to 22mm gauge and building all the stock without so much as a axle available!

 

The link to the North West Frontier theme, is, of course, the metre gauge railways of Rajasthan used in the film.

 

There is one major difficulty.  I would have to scratch-build outside frame locomotives to 12mm gauge. 

 

Allan Gibson supply wheels to the correct diameter, and they supply outside cranks.  I suppose I could substitute the axles supplied with rod to the same diameter. 

 

However, as a novice, any help or suggestions would be most welcome.

 

Only just noticed this thread, so apologies for commenting late.

 

Seems to me that the 'challenge' of a narrow gauge layout is just about the same level as the broad gauge one. My suggestion is that you would be best to stick with the original concept, but do a few little things to build up your confidence first. Split the problem down into component parts and concentrate on one or two at a time. This will make the challenge far less daunting. Track building would be a good place to start - have a go at soldering a short length of flat-bottomed track - and convert a wagon to run along it, for example.

 

Axle rod is available from several suppliers including Ultrascale and (in tube form) Eileen's Emporium. Just cut it to length. I think Alan Gibson will supply wheels with 21mm gauge axles if you ask.

 

If you are likely to take some time researching the stock for your model, why not try something a little more modern to start with. A small early railcar, for example. The scenery etc. wouldn't change a lot over the years, so you could actually run the layout in more than one period without any great problem. With a railcar, you could use something like a High Level motor bogie, which would be easy to assemble and very reliable. You could quickly get something running that way.

 

It is all too easy to spend a lot of time procrastinating or pretending that something else will be better to build in the short term. Stick with your original idea, which is very good - and it will all come together sooner or later. There may be a steep learning curve to start with, but we all go through that. There are loads of people on here who can help and advise as you go along.

[Mad Carew Too]

Only just noticed this thread, so apologies for commenting late.

 

Seems to me that the 'challenge' of a narrow gauge layout is just about the same level as the broad gauge one. My suggestion is that you would be best to stick with the original concept, but do a few little things to build up your confidence first. Split the problem down into component parts and concentrate on one or two at a time. This will make the challenge far less daunting. Track building would be a good place to start - have a go at soldering a short length of flat-bottomed track - and convert a wagon to run along it, for example.

 

Axle rod is available from several suppliers including Ultrascale and (in tube form) Eileen's Emporium. Just cut it to length. I think Alan Gibson will supply wheels with 21mm gauge axles if you ask.

 

If you are likely to take some time researching the stock for your model, why not try something a little more modern to start with. A small early railcar, for example. The scenery etc. wouldn't change a lot over the years, so you could actually run the layout in more than one period without any great problem. With a railcar, you could use something like a High Level motor bogie, which would be easy to assemble and very reliable. You could quickly get something running that way.

 

It is all too easy to spend a lot of time procrastinating or pretending that something else will be better to build in the short term. Stick with your original idea, which is very good - and it will all come together sooner or later. There may be a steep learning curve to start with, but we all go through that. There are loads of people on here who can help and advise as you go along.

 

Thank you for showing interest in this stalled project, and for those words of advice and encouragement; both are very important to me. 

 

I think you are quite right in everything you say and I feel quite inspired having read it.

 

Merry Christmas!

[Edwardian]

Thank you for showing interest in this stalled project, and for those words of advice and encouragement; both are very important to me. 

 

I think you are quite right in everything you say and I feel quite inspired having read it.

 

Merry Christmas!

 

Well, in the New Year I have to man-up and build some track, soldering FB to copperclad sleepers.  I am dreading tackling the points.

 

Far as I can see, you face much the same task, save that you will have 2 fairly minor (!), complications; you need a couple of 22mm track gauges and you will need to cut your own sleepers to length. 

 

Let's challenge each other to get cracking on some track next year!

[Mad Carew Too]

Well, in the New Year I have to man-up and build some track, soldering FB to copperclad sleepers.  I am dreading tackling the points.

 

Far as I can see, you face much the same task, save that you will have 2 fairly minor (!), complications; you need a couple of 22mm track gauges and you will need to cut your own sleepers to length. 

 

Let's challenge each other to get cracking on some track next year!

 

Challenge accepted!

 

Off to put my Scotch and Rye down and lie down ... see you on the permanent way!

[Killian keane]

Interesting topic, I do agree that a little 0-6-0 tank such as the one in the film couldnt travel the distance of the 'Karachi run', but if she had been built as one of the broad gauge 0-4-2 tender engines you refer to, it seems more plausable to me, this is not unknown, after all I recall a diminutive 0-4-0 saddle tank which started life as a gallant 0-6-0 tender engine with 6'4" wheels!

Edited January 6, 2017 by Killian keane

[Mad Carew Too]

Interesting topic, I do agree that a little 0-6-0 tank such as the one in the film couldnt travel the distance of the 'Karachi run', but if she had been built as one of the broad gauge 0-4-2 engines you refer to, it seems more plausable to me, this is not unknown, after all I recall a diminutive 0-4-0 saddle tank which started life as a gallant 0-6-0 tender engine with 6'4" wheels!

 

I think we have to accept that "Victoria" is pure, improbable, fiction.

 

The more I look into this, the more improbable the whole film becomes.  Yes, a major and widespread tribal rising is a possible scenario, it happened in 1897, but it is the block houses and frontier forts in the passes that were attacked.  The idea that a major garrison town, set back some distance from the frontier, would be attacked is improbable.  Some tribal cavalry made a demonstration before the walls of one such town in 1897, but were promptly chased off.

 

Although narrow gauge railways were built after the last major tribal conflagration, to aid communication with some of the frontier posts, nothing like the Haserabad set up in the film, notionally part of the NWR's Broad Gauge network, was seen within Jezail range of the frontier.

 

Given that, I am thinking of a garrison town setting that is not the end of the line, as Haserabad was in the film, but some distance away.  I see it as somewhat like Quetta, perhaps with elements of Kohat and other garrison towns.

 

If possible, and space permits, my "Haserabad" would be the centre of a highly fictionalised NWF scenario, which compresses 100s of miles to present the journey from the frontier to rather less potentially turbulent lands. 

 

In one direction the double-track line climbs from Haserabad to a fortified tunnel, the other side of which is a ravine, with blockhouse, leading to the fortified terminal station.  The inspiration is the Bolan Pass.  Ideally I would have a station, based on Shela Bagh hard by the grand southern portal, based on the Khojak Tunnel.  On the other side the ravine would lead to the terminal station, on the Afghan border.  This would be something like Sanzal/Chaman, with a prominent blockhouse.

 

In the other direction, the line travels across the great Indus River via a version of Attock Bridge.

 

As if all this was not (over) ambitious enough, an alternative, single-track, route to Haserabad from the south would be provided, dramatically blast into the cliffs and crossing a ravine, like Chappa Rift. 

 

So the next challenge would be condensing this into a practical plan, without axing too much along the way....  

[Edwardian]

I think we have to accept that "Victoria" is pure, improbable, fiction.

 

The more I look into this, the more improbable the whole film becomes.  Yes, a major and widespread tribal rising is a possible scenario, it happened in 1897, but it is the block houses and frontier forts in the passes that were attacked.  The idea that a major garrison town, set back some distance from the frontier, would be attacked is improbable.  Some tribal cavalry made a demonstration before the walls of one such town in 1897, but were promptly chased off.

 

Although narrow gauge railways were built after the last major tribal conflagration, to aid communication with some of the frontier posts, nothing like the Haserabad set up in the film, notionally part of the NWR's Broad Gauge network, was seen within Jezail range of the frontier.

 

Given that, I am thinking of a garrison town setting that is not the end of the line, as Haserabad was in the film, but some distance away.  I see it as somewhat like Quetta, perhaps with elements of Kohat and other garrison towns.

 

If possible, and space permits, my "Haserabad" would be the centre of a highly fictionalised NWF scenario, which compresses 100s of miles to present the journey from the frontier to rather less potentially turbulent lands. 

 

In one direction the double-track line climbs from Haserabad to a fortified tunnel, the other side of which is a ravine, with blockhouse, leading to the fortified terminal station.  The inspiration is the Bolan Pass.  Ideally I would have a station, based on Shela Bagh hard by the grand southern portal, based on the Khojak Tunnel.  On the other side the ravine would lead to the terminal station, on the Afghan border.  This would be something like Sanzal/Chaman, with a prominent blockhouse.

 

In the other direction, the line travels across the great Indus River via a version of Attock Bridge.

 

As if all this was not (over) ambitious enough, an alternative, single-track, route to Haserabad from the south would be provided, dramatically blast into the cliffs and crossing a ravine, like Chappa Rift. 

 

So the next challenge would be condensing this into a practical plan, without axing too much along the way....  

 

Spectacular.

 

Insane, but spectacular.

 

I hope you realise this epically proportioned dream; I'd love to see it.

 

A really great selection of inspirational photographs there.

[Dzine]

Hi Mad Carew Too, Just a quick note to say I'll be at the Middleton Railway Exhibition, Leeds, 17th and 18th of June, with my layout planning and design display.  There's lots of time to chat, draw and catch up if it helps.  I'm not sure what area you hail from, but would be great to meet if you're not too far away.  Kind regards Paul 

[Max Castril]

Hi there

 

Regarding North West Frontier, I live close to the line where it was filmed in Andalusia, Spain and have a website www.gssr.es about the company that built the line.  There are many photos of the line between Guadix and Hernán-Valle here: http://www.gssr.es/slideshow2.php?Ref=HV-GX and the penutimate station (http://www.gssr.es/slideshow2.php?Ref=ZF) and Iznalloz station in the finale (http://www.gssr.es/granada-guadix.php?Ref=GRX-GRAN).  The site includes the history of The GSSR and much more.

 

I hope you find it interesting.

[Max Castril]

One more thing, there are photos of a Victoria locomotive here .  However, the chap who restored her assures me that she was never in the film.  There are also some rather impressive model railways on the same page.