So who is the "designer" nowadays?

[Peter Kazmierczak]

The recent thread on Gresley's statue made me think about who designs todays trains.

 

The name of the designer seems to have fallen out of use after nationalisation. We talk of Stanier "Black Fives", Collett "Castles" and Bulleid pacifics, but we rarely say Riddles 9Fs.

 

Likewise with diesels and electrics, we might have an inklng of the exterior design features by, say, Mischa Black on the Westerns, but was there an overall designer for these? Or are things different with diesels and electrics as they are more a box of different bits?

 

So who (if any single person) would be the lead designer of Desiros or Electrostars, Class 66s and 70s?

 

Just wondering................................

 

 

 

 

[D1059]

The recent thread on Gresley's statue made me think about who designs todays trains.

 

The name of the designer seems to have fallen out of use after nationalisation. We talk of Stanier "Black Fives", Collett "Castles" and Bulleid pacifics, but we rarely say Riddles 9Fs.

 

Likewise with diesels and electrics, we might have an inklng of the exterior design features by, say, Mischa Black on the Westerns, but was there an overall designer for these? Or are things different with diesels and electrics as they are more a box of different bits?

 

So who (if any single person) would be the lead designer of Desiros or Electrostars, Class 66s and 70s?

 

Just wondering................................

 

If there was an overall lead designer of such items.......................would they admit to it 

[Pyewipe Jct]

I think enthusiasts, at least, do refer to 'Riddles 9Fs', etc., but it does seem that with the coming of the diesel & electric age, it became less about a cult of personality & more about company identity - Brush 2s & 4s, English Electric Type 3s, BR Class XX, etc. Whether that also coincided with a shift away from having a 'chief designer/engineer' to instead having a 'design team', I don't know.

 

The physical reality of designing locos probably hasn't changed much, in that it was always somewhat of a collective effort, even in the days of Gresley, and the like, so perhaps it's right that the designer is the company now rather than an individual?

[slilley]

In BR days with diesels and electrics the design work was a team effort. With the 71 electrics I am researching at present, the design work was done by the Mechanical Engineer (Design) RG Jarvis and his team at Brighton. Mischa Black whose name is associated with styling work on the diesel hydraulics, also worked on the 71s. With them he was used both on certain external features, but also on the cab interiors as well.

 

The Class 47s were designed by Brush with input from the consultants Wilkes Ashmore. Decisions about engines and electrical equipment tended to be made by BR committees based on the type of work the loco type would be expected to do. For what became the Class 47s, a BR committee drew up a specification for a Type 4 detailing type of engines that could be used, maximum axle loading etc. This went out to tender and the competing companies submitted outline designs and prices based on that specification.

 

Best wishes

 

Simon

[runs as required]

We nowadays seem to refer to them more specifically using the name of the constructor eg Alsthom; Bombardier; Hitachi rather than the designer.

Was that not always the case if sourced from the independent supplier?

How many of us can name the designers of Gorton's Beyer Garrett breed - or of Hunslett's locos?

 

dh

[Joseph_Pestell]

Design by committee. We all know what that leads to.

[edcayton]

The Fell?

 

Ed

[runs as required]

.... Whether that also coincided with a shift away from having a 'chief designer/engineer' to instead having a 'design team', I don't know.

 

The physical reality of designing locos probably hasn't changed much, in that it was always somewhat of a collective effort, even in the days of Gresley, and the like, so perhaps it's right that the designer is the company now rather than an individual?

I think I've posted before about a lovely old friend who was a tracer at Doncaster works through the war years until she got married just before BR and was obliged to leave her job (mandatory in those days for women).

 

She has wonderful recollections of "difficult" Mr Thompson and Mr Peppercorn: "such a lovely gentleman" who had quite a a different way of treating you.

 

dh

[slilley]

Design by committee. We all know what that leads to.

When you read the minutes of some of these committee meeting where they were deciding to spend millions on this class or that class, sometimes you start thinking "do you really know what you are letting yourself in for?".

[34theletterbetweenB&D]

There will still be a responsible person, whose moniker goes on the complete design approving it for production. That's what a Churchward, Robinson, Gresley, Stanier etc. did. An administrator who among other responsibilites headed a committee which outlined the requirement specification and then monitored it's development through review stages until a final design was evolved.( I have been chief engineer on projects from concept to sign off, and did it all with no visible tool more sophisticated than a biro. What did the work was the 1.5kg of nervous tissue in my head.)

 

Some were more hands on than others, Robinson reputedly didn't know which was the business end of a pencil, whereas Gresley actually 'did things' himself. (His daughter's account of him defining the width of the corridor tender passage is priceless.) This accounts for the B17 still being a 'Gresley design' even though the shop doing all the detail design work was NBL. Gresley had led the team that developed the spec and approved the final design, his was the responsibility.

[APOLLO]

No doubt who designed this

 

 

Brit15

[Sheffield]

Does this not indicate how the status of the Engineer has slipped down the social scale generally? Every one. well almost, knows of Stephenson and Brunell,  Victorian engineers; some people can name Churchward etc, 1920/30s engineers, but who can name the engineer for, say, the M1? Or some know who was in charge of the Forth Rail Bridge, but who was in charge of the adjacent road bridge?

Nowadays when people think engineer they usually mean mechanic.

[Rugd1022]

It's worth mentioning that although Sir Misha Black is given credit for the appearance of the Westerns, his second in command John Beresford-Evans did much of the actual styling (under Black's approval of course). The only difference between JBE's clay model for D1000 and the real thing was the addition of a third lamp iron in the centre of the cab front on the model, which was left off the real thing at the last minute. Although the overall look of the class was based on Black's rejected design concept for the D800 Warships, it was JBE who came up with the final Western styling, a stroke of pure genius as far as I'm concerned.

[runs as required]

Although the overall look of the class was based on Black's rejected design concept for the D800 Warships, it was JBE [John Beresford-Evans] who came up with the final Western styling, a stroke of pure genius as far as I'm concerned.

So does "styling" equate with "designing"?

I had the impresion your "real" engineer lwould have bawled out out any arty type that came near with "I'll help you with the shape and the colour scheme".

Although....

Having said that, even IKB felt he had to call in Digby Wyatt to 'clart up' the forthright engineering logic of Paddington train shed with some curly whirly 'add on' decoration.

[russ p]

So who (if any single person) would be the lead designer of Desiros or Electrostars, Class 66s and 70s?

 

Just wondering................................

Would you put your name to any of these!

 

The automotive industry has never had many famous designers since the war, most car designs were merely credited to the company

 

Some that spring to mind are Sir Alec Issigoniss ,BMC , Harris Mann, and David Basch BL, Roy Axe Chrysler and rover and Wayne Cherry ,Vauxhall

[runs as required]

The Fell?

 

Ed

Is that really true?

My dad who was in Shell-BP at the time (along with, interestingly, colleague Roald Dahl) had some duties to do with Shell's sponsorship of the Fell.

He had to arrange Colonel Fell's lecture schedule around the country in the 1950-55 period, promoting the concept of the multi-engined machine with its cunning integrating gearbox.

 

We kids watched the loco with its weird noise cross New Mills viaduct several times from Derby, but to me it's always had a whiff of Brunel's absolutist 'atnospheric' about it.

 

dh

 

Edit

I was an avid reader of the Eagle comic at the time - the Fell featured in its cutaway drawings of British design breakthroughs of the period - which also  included the Princess Flying Boat, the Bristol Brabazon and the BRM!

[John_Miles]

AutoCAD

[Peter Kazmierczak]

With all the above in mind (thanks all), we won't have to be fussed with any statues of them in the future then.

[slilley]

So does "styling" equate with "designing"?

I had the impresion your "real" engineer lwould have bawled out out any arty type that came near with "I'll help you with the shape and the colour scheme".

Although....

Having said that, even IKB felt he had to call in Digby Wyatt to 'clart up' the forthright engineering logic of Paddington train shed with some curly whirly 'add on' decoration.

The BTC of course had the Design Panel which became involved in all locomotive and rolling stock projects. The engineering staff would come up with the basic design and often someone like Mischa Black or whoever would then be used to refine what was given to them. Black was also responsible with the 71s for their original livery style, the last details of which were still being decided with E5000 complete and awaiting painting at Doncaster.

[Talltim]

It's all due to the cult of personality and celebrity that we have now that modern engineers/designers are so famous... Err, hang on...

[The Stationmaster]

If you look at the modern design and approval process for traction units I suspect that by the time something is actually passed as 'fit in all respects to go into traffic' there will be enough signatures for the number of them to run into 3 digits.  Just thinking of one or two things I was involved in the fringes of where even signing of as ISAs (Independent Safety Assessors) who were checking that the people who had designed whatever they had designed could actually fully support, explain and justify why they had done particular parts of it in a certain way we were probably putting 5 or 6 signatures on documents to say we were satisfied and whatever it was couldn't have entered traffic without our say so.

 

In terms of design i suppose all you could really relate to the old system is the overall team leader on the design work - but then he might have moved on while it was still being developed.

[Rugd1022]

Would you put your name to any of these!

 

The automotive industry has never had many famous designers since the war, most car designs were merely credited to the company

 

Some that spring to mind are Sir Alec Issigoniss ,BMC , Harris Mann, and David Basch BL, Roy Axe Chrysler and rover and Wayne Cherry ,Vauxhall

 

 

Glad you've mention David Bache Russ, I dare say most people would say ''who...?'' when asked if they knew the name but he was responsible for some great designs at Rover : the P5 and P5B saloons and coupes, the P6, SD1 and the Range Rover, an early two door example of which is featured in the latest issue of 'Classic & Sportscar' magazine.

 

Apologies for veering off topic, but industrial design takes many forms (as did Mr.Bache's hair at times!).

[APOLLO]

Misha Black helped to design the Class 52 "Western" hydraulic loco body shell.

 

This is interesting.  http://www.westernlegacypublications.com/britainsdedesigners.htm

 

Brit15

[russ p]

Actually after I made the comment about car designers I realised I knew quite a few more mainly from the BMC/BL era.

David Bache ( thanks for the correct spelling) was the also the original designer of the maestro and montego though as it had such a long gestation period others had a hand in the designs before release

[brianusa]

AutoCAD

 

Probably not far from the truth. IKB and his ilk designed trains, ships and bridges from his head and put them down on paper.  He didn't need a computer to  impart the latest drag figures, fuel use or costing's combined with H & S requirements; he designed the thing to work as he envisioned.  A long way from today where an entry into a computer eventually ends up as the finished article which hopefully will turn out successfully as those in the industry try and tell us.

 

Brian.