Dapol track cleaner

[wireman]

After extensive use ot a Dapol track cleaner which has been fitted with a chip for DCC use, some 12 loco's on the layout were found to have lost all of their chip memory. Other engines on the layout at the time were uneffected. The unit was fitted with one of the grinding pads first, then the vacuum unit, probably in use on and off for an hour or so. Normally, if a loco chip is effected for any reason  it just reverts to the default setting of 3, but in this instance, we had to start from scratch and programme them to 3 before being able to proceed with extended addressing. My question is, has anyone had this problem or can possibly throw any light on this.  Many thanks. Brian. ( wireman )

[34theletterbetweenB&D]

... Normally, if a loco chip is effected for any reason  it just reverts to the default setting of 3...

Is that a frequent occurence? (The way it is written gives that impression.)  If so then I suggest an underlying fault condition, which if sorted would probably have prevented the present event. Decoders shouldn't randomly lose addresses.

 

Have any of the twelve affected in this recent event lost their address previously?

Anything in common between the twelve? All the same decoder type or a mixture for example.

[wireman]

Is that a frequent occurence? (The way it is written gives that impression.)  If so then I suggest an underlying fault condition, which if sorted would probably have prevented the present event. Decoders shouldn't randomly lose addresses.

 

Have any of the twelve affected in this recent event lost their address previously?

Anything in common between the twelve? All the same decoder type or a mixture for example.

 

Hi thanks for reply, but no its not a frequent occurence and this rail cleaner is not often used. Hence my thinking that this has been the problem. Decoder types are a mixture, some locos purchased DCC fitted, others with decoders from various sources. One odd fact here is that the loco pulling the track cleaner was unaffected. If a decoder has had a problem in the past, the chip has always reverted to factory settings, not the case this time. In each case, reading CV1, the address shows 3, but entering Loco 3 shows no response on the controller and no movement. Programming each back to 3 then allows extended adressing as normal.

 

I should point out that this has not occured on my own layout, but a much larger one with which I am involved. In general terms, apart from human error, there has been very few problems in running the layout since starting some 6 or so years ago.

 

Thanks for your interest, and welcome any other ideas. Regards. Brian ( wireman )

[johnb]

What can happen is that a short on the layout somewhere, maybe running against an incorrectly set point, can cause some, but not all, types of decoder to revert to 3. There would seem to be a pulse of some sort that scrambles the decoder settings. Happens on my layout occasionally, if a number of locos are on powered tracks at that time then it could happen to some/all of them.

 

Just a thought

 

John

[wireman]

Yes John, thanks for reply. This has happened on the odd occasion, but this time the decoders did not revert to 3, we had to programme them to three to enable us to set any other CV's. Normaly CV 8 preset 8 reverts to factory settings but even this would not happen untill CV1 was set to 3. We will not use the Dapol track cleaner whilst we figure out what happened. Any other ideas welcome.

 

Many thanks.  Brian ( wireman )

[johnb]

Brian

 

You are probably aware that not all decoders reset by setting CV8 to 8. Most do so quite happily, but there are some, it's usually the older designs that have something different.

 

Just thought I'd check.

 

Also are the 'problem' decoders all the same model?

 

John

[wireman]

Hi John, no the problem ones are not all the same. We neglected to keep records of which chips were fitted to which engine in some cases. The loco stud is quite large and obviously this was a mistake. From the ones I know, a couple of loco's fitted with Bachman chips have been the most problem.

 

Thanks once again.

 

Brian

[KalKat]

Are the grinding discs coated with aluminium oxide?

 

I was just wondering if grinding products are creating a partial occasional short - aluminium oxide being slightly conductive and the rail grindings slightly more so. Also would the discs short across rail gaps or point/crossing blades?

 

 

Emma

[wireman]

Hi Emma, this was suggested to me before and at the time I discounted it, but I think you are probably right. This could happen and coupled with the fact that the cleaner was used for such a long period would account for the high number of Loco's affected.Track cleaner will not be used for a while, just to make sure nothing else is causing the problem. Thank you and all the others who have taken the trouble to reply.

 

Regards. Brian  ( wireman )

[mwrosebury2000]

I had a Bachmann chip that failed on me some years ago, the train was just going round and round then the chip failed and would not respond, the power was cut to stop the train. When I turned it back on it was ok for about 30 seconds then went to full speed and wouldn't respond. I couldn't get the chip to reset so in the end it went back to the shop who replaced it. I wish I had sent it back to Bachmann and followed it up to see what it was... I didn't have a track cleaner at the time but do now and have not had any problems (touch wood).

I take it that your controller hasn't indecated a short?

Could you not remove the loco's during cleaning? I know this can be a pain when you have a lot.

 

Mark

[bourneagain]

Are the grinding discs coated with aluminium oxide?

 

I was just wondering if grinding products are creating a partial occasional short - aluminium oxide being slightly conductive and the rail grindings slightly more so. Also would the discs short across rail gaps or point/crossing blades?

 

 

Emma

If the grinding waste products were causing the shorting out problems and it stands to reason that there would be some residue, surely it would be good practice to have a quick go around the track with a small vacuum cleaner to remove it and other loose debris. Just a thought.

[Titan]

If the grinding waste products were causing the shorting out problems and it stands to reason that there would be some residue, surely it would be good practice to have a quick go around the track with a small vacuum cleaner to remove it and other loose debris. Just a thought.

 

 

After extensive use ot a Dapol track cleaner which has been fitted with a chip for DCC use, some 12 loco's on the layout were found to have lost all of their chip memory. Other engines on the layout at the time were uneffected. The unit was fitted with one of the grinding pads first, then the vacuum unit, probably in use on and off for an hour or so. Normally, if a loco chip is effected for any reason  it just reverts to the default setting of 3, but in this instance, we had to start from scratch and programme them to 3 before being able to proceed with extended addressing. My question is, has anyone had this problem or can possibly throw any light on this.  Many thanks. Brian. ( wireman )

[wireman]

Hi  Mark and Bourneagain. Thanks for replies. Yes Mark, removing the Loco's would be the best idea but at the time we did not know that the problem was going to happen and as you say, there were a lot of loco's to remove. The less handling, the better with weathered and detailed stock. On the subject of vacuum cleaning after using the grinding pad, the pad can then be removed and a vacuum fan fitted. Although quite small, it is quite effective and usefull in those areas hard to reach with the normal " Henry " vacuum. However, after a recent conversation with the supplier of the DCC system in use, it seems this is a known problem and they recommended cleaning the grinding pad very frequently with an alcohol based cleaner when in use. The Dapol unit can also be fitted with a small sponge pad, fed with cleaning fluid through a small tank. Unfortunately these pads are soon torn by point frogs, rail joints etc. Plus, once cleaning fluid is introduced, picking up or turning the vehicle over is not possible without draining and cleaning all the fluid, as the smallest amount spilt can seep everywhere. Where possible , I think the good old Peco block rail cleaner and a good vacuum cleaner is still the best, using the cleaning truck only in the couple of difficult areas in the hidden storage yard. Once again, many thanks to every one for their interest.

 

Regards. Brian. ( wireman )

[jaym481]

I have the Tomix N version as well as the CMX car in N. The plan is to run my MOW train with a suitable loco pushing the Tomix in front to vacuum and the CMX behind to scrub. I tried the grinding wheel on the Tomix, but I'm not convinced that much abrasive is a good idea.

[Removed a/c]

Does it cause any problems when just using it for vacuuming?  If not perhaps use as suggested above. 

[wireman]

Hi jaym48 and thebritfarmer. No problem when using just as vacuum cleaner, as there is no track contact with anything other than that required to power the unit. In our case, using a DCC chip enables the truck to be pulled around and the vac. motor to be turned on and off when required. Although we do not do so, this means that the cleaner could be left on the track and just collected when required. On my own much smaller layout, I use a Woodland Scenic Track Tidy kit and find the various configurations available cover every thing I want to do. The long articulated handle allows easy cleaning through and under platform awnings, around signals etc. In the fixed position without the handle and the grooved pads turned over to the flat side for points slips etc. I'll put a picture on my layout blog in the next day or so. Thanks for interest.

 

Regards Brian. ( wireman )

[Suzie]

The problem with decoders losing their settings when there are power surges is down to the poor quality of the decoders. Bachmann 36-553 and 36-554 (the ESU Lokpilot ones) are very prone to this, and the Lenz Gold minis too.

 

There are ways to mitigate the problems:-

 

1. Make sure that nothing is causing a short or overload. It may just be that the track cleaner uses a lot of power and may be more than is being supplied if you have a 1A system.

 

2. Ensure that track supply uses fat enough wiring. The main track bus from the booster should be 2.5mm^2 with droppers to the track of 16/02 (or 7/02 for very short droppers only).

 

3. Make sure that you have short circuit protection either in the command station or using electronic circuit breakers.

 

This problem is an accumulation of more than one issue, so it is worth tackling all of them, especially replacing the poor quality decoders and making sure that you have fat wiring to the track.

[wireman]

Hi Suzie, yes I agree with all your comments. The layout bus is 2.5mm ring main cable stripped for the two inner cores and droppers are as you suggest 7/02.
The recent extension is fed through an electronic circuit breaker which acts faster than the short protection in the two base stations, often cutting out with perhaps a wheel short through pointwork when the base stations would not.
In use human error is nearly always the problem when any short occurs. Pictures of the Coleborne Junction control panels are on the Layout blog which can be found by clicking on my own layout and scrolling down the last page, finding an entry from Trackbed at Coleborne Junction or google Coleborne Junction.

I really am grateful for all replies, thanks once again.

Brain. ( wireman ).

[2750Papyrus]

Please does anyone know of a source of spares for the track cleaner?  The Dapol web page has a link to a DCC supplier page but the range of spares available is very limited.  I need a spare extractor tool for the vacuum fan and some polishing heads and fluid would be good.

[mwrosebury2000]

Try your local model shop or if that fails Gaugemaster

 

Mark