marco demarco Posted April 30, 2016 Share Posted April 30, 2016 I wonder if anyone out there has the same problem or may be able to point me in the right direction... Each time I try to access a loco on the programming track, the main track cuts out. Green lights up on the control unit, and once the prog loco has been recognised, the blue lights up again and the locos on the main track pick up where they left off. This means it's impossible to be running locos on main while programming another. I have recently set up my Z21 to my 18' x 10' layout which is under construction using code 100 Peco. It worked perfectly on DC. At the moment it is a basic twin track loop with 3 extra run-around loops for storage. It's based on the track plan below, but I have only completed the lower section including the twin crossover so far. The main track bus is very high grade [stiff] household ring main wire. It is twisted every so often and at the moment the "open ends" are positioned ready for the high level terminus extension. These are yet to be terminated. I've attached about 50% of the droppers to the bus wire, including the loops. Every part of the layout is accessible and there are no short circuits [except for the insulfrog crossover, but that's a well documented issue!!]. The Z21 is patched into the halfway point, under the crossover section, directly from the "Main Track" output. The "Prog Track" output is connected to a completely separate section of track. This track is not connected to the main layout at all and is on a separate board. Does anyone have any idea what the problem could be? Many thanks marco Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nigelcliffe Posted April 30, 2016 Share Posted April 30, 2016 Quite a few systems behave as you describe, its a deliberate feature by the manufacturer. - Nigel Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jpendle Posted April 30, 2016 Share Posted April 30, 2016 As Nigel says, this is a 'feature' of the Z21 not a problem! Regards, John P Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
marco demarco Posted April 30, 2016 Author Share Posted April 30, 2016 Quite a few systems behave as you describe, its a deliberate feature by the manufacturer. - Nigel As Nigel says, this is a 'feature' of the Z21 not a problem! Regards, John P Hmm. Thanks Nigel and John Do your DCC systems utilise that "feature"? I'm very new to DCC [as you can tell], but surely that's something that should be fixed? Do you know what other systems work that way? marco Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nigelcliffe Posted April 30, 2016 Share Posted April 30, 2016 Reasons why makers choose particular behaviours can only be answered by the maker. Many European made systems behave like the Z21. In contrast, many US made systems do not turn off the mainline when programming. As to why, here's a few possible reasons: 1 - user should concentrate on one job at a time. So, if programming, which can get very involved, don't also have trains running. For fine-tuning of a loco it can be better done with ops-mode programming on the mainline, which by definition, has the mainline power turned on. 2 - system processing power. Its simpler for the system if it concentrates on one task at a time. Reading decoder values requires some precise timing in the internal processor. 3 - programming track protection. If a user makes a wiring mistake and connects the mainline to programming track, then by turning off the mainline, the programming track "reading" components in the DCC system are protected (the components are designed to detect small currents returned from the decoder, and subjecting them to full mainline power is likely to destroy them). I know three modellers who have damaged their (US brand) systems by this mistake, so its not uncommon. In each case, the DCC system had to go back to the maker to replace the damaged components. I have several systems, with different uses. Some turn off the layout if programming, some don't. It is never an issue for me - for complex programming I use a Sprog and a laptop running JMRI, for smaller changes, I use ops-mode on the mainline to adjust features (with or without the laptop). - Nigel Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
amdaley Posted April 30, 2016 Share Posted April 30, 2016 I wonder if anyone out there has the same problem or may be able to point me in the right direction... Each time I try to access a loco on the programming track, the main track cuts out. Green lights up on the control unit, and once the prog loco has been recognised, the blue lights up again and the locos on the main track pick up where they left off. This means it's impossible to be running locos on main while programming another. I have recently set up my Z21 to my 18' x 10' layout which is under construction using code 100 Peco. It worked perfectly on DC. At the moment it is a basic twin track loop with 3 extra run-around loops for storage. It's based on the track plan below, but I have only completed the lower section including the twin crossover so far. CityTerminus copy.jpg The main track bus is very high grade [stiff] household ring main wire. It is twisted every so often and at the moment the "open ends" are positioned ready for the high level terminus extension. These are yet to be terminated. I've attached about 50% of the droppers to the bus wire, including the loops. Every part of the layout is accessible and there are no short circuits [except for the insulfrog crossover, but that's a well documented issue!!]. The Z21 is patched into the halfway point, under the crossover section, directly from the "Main Track" output. The "Prog Track" output is connected to a completely separate section of track. This track is not connected to the main layout at all and is on a separate board. Does anyone have any idea what the problem could be? Many thanks marco My NCE Power Pro 5 amp system behaves the same way. Its not a fault. I smiled when I saw your track plan which is the same as my own Good old Cyril. The only problem I found with the plan is that it doesn't really have enough storage until you build the terminus which I am doing at present. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
marco demarco Posted April 30, 2016 Author Share Posted April 30, 2016 Thanks for your reply Nigel I guess at least I now know that my system is working as it should. Very frustrating though. I get your points, but you'd think a system that costs £300 should be able to cope with the extra processing. My layout will be relatively modest compared to some, but i'd expect my son or other interested party to be able to continue running their train whilst a little tweaking could be going on off scene. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
marco demarco Posted April 30, 2016 Author Share Posted April 30, 2016 My NCE Power Pro 5 amp system behaves the same way. Its not a fault. I smiled when I saw your track plan which is the same as my own Good old Cyril. The only problem I found with the plan is that it doesn't really have enough storage until you build the terminus which I am doing at present. Ha! Nice one Tony. We could seriously go off topic here. I'd be interested to see how they compare. I'm making a few alterations [a little longer/wider], but i am concerned that there may not be a lot going on beyond the terminus. It'll take some creative modelling to keep the interest up on the main lines. If all goes to plan it'll have a full catenary system on all the "straight" sections... the two tight corners before and after the double crossover will be under bridges to conserve modesty! The other end under the terminus approaches will also be mostly under cover. marco Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
amdaley Posted May 1, 2016 Share Posted May 1, 2016 Ha! Nice one Tony. We could seriously go off topic here. I'd be interested to see how they compare. I'm making a few alterations [a little longer/wider], but i am concerned that there may not be a lot going on beyond the terminus. It'll take some creative modelling to keep the interest up on the main lines. If all goes to plan it'll have a full catenary system on all the "straight" sections... the two tight corners before and after the double crossover will be under bridges to conserve modesty! The other end under the terminus approaches will also be mostly under cover. marco Hi Marco. I think you got the answer to your initial question so I suppose the thread can go anywhere it pleases or you could start a new thread or switch to pm My layout is 23' x 9'. The side baseboards are only 18" so I have space for the isles either side of the terminus baseboard. How far have you got so far ? Tony. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
marco demarco Posted May 4, 2016 Author Share Posted May 4, 2016 Sure Tony. Would be good to continue chat on PM to follow each others progress. I have got as far as laying all the lower level track. Due to space around the support webbing in the roof I'm restricted to only three storage loops to maintain the continuous twin track mainline, although I have extended them somewhat. I'll draw up a scale track diagram soon and hopefully that will make more sense! I'm modelling mid-70s diesels so the terminus will be modified accordingly. How are you getting on? What era/area are you modelling? marco Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
amdaley Posted May 6, 2016 Share Posted May 6, 2016 Sure Tony. Would be good to continue chat on PM to follow each others progress. I have got as far as laying all the lower level track. Due to space around the support webbing in the roof I'm restricted to only three storage loops to maintain the continuous twin track mainline, although I have extended them somewhat. I'll draw up a scale track diagram soon and hopefully that will make more sense! I'm modelling mid-70s diesels so the terminus will be modified accordingly. How are you getting on? What era/area are you modelling? marco Hi Marco. I'm a rule no 1 type of modeller in that I run something if I like it. I'll run anything up to & including early diesels but no BR steamers. One thing I won't run at all is modern stuff as it does nothing for me. My layout is an ongoing project. As I said earlier the main problem I have found is the lack of storage but hopefully the terminus will provide a little more on that front. I can send you some photo's of the layout if you would like. Just send me a Pm with an email address. Regards. Tony. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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