Bachmann Patriot running-starting concerns

[Paul_sterling]

Hi Folks,

 

I have recently purchased (second hand) a Bachmann Patriot, 32-211 "Home Guard" that has had little or no use since new, it runs smoothly after running in, but it will not run at a slow pace, and "jerks" to start i.e. power is applied, nothing, nothing, nothing, then its away at a canter, no smooth control. 

 

I had this with a Robinson O4 from the same group a year ago, and never resolved it, can anyone give any guidance as to why this is so different from the usual running quality of Bachmann steam locomotives?

 

the Loco is DCC ready, and running on an analogue system. 

 

thanks in advance

Paul. 

[johnb]

It could be a case of sticky lubricant. Bachmann have used, they may still do, a whitish grease that tends to go a bit firm after storage. I suggest that you clean it up, re lubricate and give it another go.

 

John

[34theletterbetweenB&D]

Paul,

 

There will be some uniform tightness in the drive line somewhere, which the motor has to overcome from stalled.

 

Most likely location is in the drive train, gears, axles etc. Remove the motor and push along to assess the force required, compared to a loco chassis from a model that does start smoothly which gives you the 'free-rolling' standard to aim at. It's a bit of fiddle-de-dee to do all this and to rectify when the location of the problem has been found, but worth knowing how.

[Paul_sterling]

thanks for the replies chaps, 

 

i'll tentatively investigate tonight, I don't want to delve in too far as this may yet be subject to an eBay return, but i'm already conceded to the point i want to keep the loco, so perhaps its right to go inside and check it over. with the Robinson, I took it back to the vendor for a refund, as it was local, whereas this will obviously entail the loss of the return postage if required. 

 

many thanks!

 

Paul. 

[RexAshton]

I'd agree with the sticky grease particularly if it's been stood a while. I recently serviced an estate collection of locos prior to sale and almost all needed degreasing and lightly oiling after which they were all happy.

[TheSignalEngineer]

It could be a case of sticky lubricant. Bachmann have used, they may still do, a whitish grease that tends to go a bit firm after storage. I suggest that you clean it up, re lubricate and give it another go.

 

John

I got out a old Bachmann 08 recently after it had not been used for a few months. It ran very poorly so I opened it up and found the factory applied grease had thickened to almost solid on the gears. A washout and relubricate and it ran fine.

[RICHARDCHAPMAN]

Hi Paul,Ive sent you a PM.

Thanks Richard

[Paul_sterling]

thank you all for the most helpful information, I did not get near the loco last night, but I hope to tonight and check it out. always wary of taking engines apart, but I will proceed with caution. 

 

any recommendations as to what product to use to clean the old grease out? I was thinking of white spirit on a cotton bud??

 

cheers, 

Paul. 

[Tim Hall]

_{Had the same problem with a Hornby Royal Scot (so same mechanism) running on DC. Took it apart. Found it was DCC fitted, replaced the chip with a blanking plate that had mysteriously arrived with a different loco, job done.}

 

_{Have to say, the other explanation may be more likely though.}

[RexAshton]

thank you all for the most helpful information, I did not get near the loco last night, but I hope to tonight and check it out. always wary of taking engines apart, but I will proceed with caution. 

 

any recommendations as to what product to use to clean the old grease out? I was thinking of white spirit on a cotton bud??

 

cheers, 

Paul. 

I gave mine a good brush out with methylated spirit - it's what I had at the time - then left it to evaporate. IPA would also do but be careful of the fumes. Work in a well ventilated area.

[TheSignalEngineer]

For my 08 I used Evergreen strip scraps to take out as much as possible and then meths and a brush for the rest.

[Paul_sterling]

Hi Folks,

 

after cleaning and re-lubricating i'm still no further forward. here is a video of the running, forward and reverse, as well as hi and low frequency (the controller is an old Hornby 912). 

 

https://youtu.be/vzYdFtMQlig

 

sorry about the untidyness, this is my old layout at my parents as i'm moving house so my own line is dismantled

vzYdFtMQlig

 

it appears to have a DCC 8 pin blanking plug fitted.

 

Richard has given me some other ideas, but the loco doesn't appear to have those issues either.

 

out of interest, (going to sound stupid now) i thought these chassis had a brass flywheel, or has that gone out of fashion now?

 

Paul. 

[34theletterbetweenB&D]

The combined brass flywheel and worm or 'fat worm' was found on many of Bachmann split chassis mechanisms. This is a more recent product, wiper pick up, no split axle wheelsets to fall apart on you. (The fat worm was a poor idea technically, you lose efficiency = drag as the worm diameter increases. The same volume of brass disposed as large diameter flywheel, small diameter worm, makes for a far better result. To the best of my knowledge only Bach's 9F has a flywheel among their UK steam model range with the current mechanism design.)

 

There's something binding in that driveline is all I can say from the video. You haven't got a quartering issue or similar. Whatever is binding is basically acting as a brake which the motor only overcomes once it has enough power. The only way forward is a strip down to get at the cause, whether hardened lubricant, a tight bearing, or some piece of random plastic clamped against an axle by the keeper plate, to name a few of the possibilities.

[Sam Moss]

I'd say its your controller. The Hornby R912 controller is ancient and was designed when Triang motored mechanisms was still the norm and these took more power to get them going. Some Bachmann motors take very little voltage to get them spinning so I'd say that when you apply power its running fast because rather than getting 0 - 12v over many speed steps its essentially getting 5-12v because the controller won't go down to 0v.

[Paul_sterling]

I'd say its your controller. The Hornby R912 controller is ancient and was designed when Triang motored mechanisms was still the norm and these took more power to get them going. Some Bachmann motors take very little voltage to get them spinning so I'd say that when you apply power its running fast because rather than getting 0 - 12v over many speed steps its essentially getting 5-12v because the controller won't go down to 0v.

 Sam,

 

thanks for the info, but as this controller gives near equal control performance to the HM2000 I use at home when used with any of my other Bachmann stock, I have no real reason to question the controller, and given that whilst I tested this, I had the Class 25 pottering about on the other half of the controller, its still the loco where the problem is. 

 

As a control, I will bring my HM2000 and 4000 to this layout and try them as well. 

 

I'm going to have another look inside to find any points binding, and also test chassis and motor separately, (half split maintenance technique)

 

cheers, 

Paul. 

[Mad McCann]

Paul, if you can get access to a rolling road, give your model a good run in, ideally an hour in each direction

Recently I did this for a pair of old Bec tram bogies which had been exceptionally rough after about 40 years in a box. By the end of the process they were as sweet as a nut.

 

Dave.

[Paul_sterling]

Paul, if you can get access to a rolling road, give your model a good run in, ideally an hour in each direction

Recently I did this for a pair of old Bec tram bogies which had been exceptionally rough after about 40 years in a box. By the end of the process they were as sweet as a nut.

 

Dave.

thanks Dave,

 

I don't have a rolling road, to be honest, i've always been happy just running them in on the line, 15 minutes at one speed, reverse the direction, another 15 minutes, then repeat the process at a different speed, and keep doing these cycles till a couple of hours are racked up. generally running in has only been needed on two fairly desperate running Hornby engines (not the place for that story). I have toyed with a rolling road, just not got round to it.

 

I've had the chassis apart again today, and found a little flashing on the bottom panel was rubbing on the axles, so that was addressed, and where the oil had helped to wash out the harder to access grease, that was cleared and re-oiled. I took the motor out of mesh and tried it out, and the start up was smooth and delicate. on testing the engine is much better and smoother starting.

 

thank you all for your help.

 

Paul.