Why no car shuttle through the Severn Tunnel?

[Joseph_Pestell]

BBC were winding me up yesterday by constantly referring to the M48 Severn Bridge as having Wales at its north end. It does not, of course, both ends being in Gloucestershire.

 

That got me to thinking about the old Aust car ferry that the bridge replaced in 1966 and read up a bit about it. It was a notoriously difficult crossing and the ferry could not operate at all in certain tidal conditions. So why did the GW/BR(W) not offer a car shuttle through the tunnel?

[Zomboid]

I imagine it would come down to being a very expensive operation where charging a fare which would turn a profit would be nigh on impossible, limited capacity in the tunnel (not sure if it had any intermediate signals back then, but now that there are it's still not a high capacity stretch of railway), and the safety issues surrounding taking so much petrol through in uncertified containers.

[phil-b259]

BBC were winding me up yesterday by constantly referring to the M48 Severn Bridge as having Wales at its north end. It does not, of course, both ends being in Gloucestershire.

 

That got me to thinking about the old Aust car ferry that the bridge replaced in 1966 and read up a bit about it. It was a notoriously difficult crossing and the ferry could not operate at all in certain tidal conditions. So why did the GW/BR(W) not offer a car shuttle through the tunnel?

 

IIRC they did - its just it wasn't on the scale of todays car / lorry shuttles (e.g. Switzerland / Channel Tunnel)

[Fat Controller]

There was such a shuttle, running until the first bridge opened. It ran from Severn Tunnel Junction to Pilning. Stock was a couple of Collett coaches, with four-wheel Carfits for the vehicles, hauled by one of STJ's 51xx Praries. I'm told I travelled on it on a trip from my Uncle George's in Newport to Bristol Zoo, when I was about three.

[ian]

Indeed there was. The GWR started a service between Severn Tunnel Junction and Pilning in 1924. It was suspended during WWII but re-instated afterwards and lasted until 1966 when the new bridge made it redundant.

 

Edit - posted at the same time as the Fat Controller's reply.

[APOLLO]

Link & photo here

 

http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/83002-jds-bw-photos-around-bristol/page-2&do=findComment&comment=1634733

 

Brit15

[Joseph_Pestell]

Thanks all. I had never seen any reference to this. It would make quite a good "special" for Hornby to issue.

 

I suppose the question should have been, why have a ferry when the train was available?

 

And also, why did it take until 1924 to start the service (same year as the ferry)?

[Fat Controller]

Thanks all. I had never seen any reference to this.

 

I suppose the question should have been, why have a ferry when the train was available?

The train could only take a small number of cars and light vans, whilst the ferry took heavier vehicles, and those with loads such as petrol. Looking at such photos that I've seen, the train seemed to be a token gesture, with half-a-dozen cars at most. The car carriers used were these:- http://paulbartlett.zenfolio.com/brcarfita/h7b93dd#h7b93dd

[Great Western]

BBC were winding me up yesterday by constantly referring to the M48 Severn Bridge as having Wales at its north end. It does not, of course, both ends being in Gloucestershire.

 

That got me to thinking about the old Aust car ferry that the bridge replaced in 1966 and read up a bit about it. It was a notoriously difficult crossing and the ferry could not operate at all in certain tidal conditions. So why did the GW/BR(W) not offer a car shuttle through the tunnel?

I think you'll find the Welsh end is actually in Wales, either that or Chepstow has been stolen in a English land grab !

[steam69]

The train could only take a small number of cars and light vans, whilst the ferry took heavier vehicles, and those with loads such as petrol. Looking at such photos that I've seen, the train seemed to be a token gesture, with half-a-dozen cars at most. The car carriers used were these:- http://paulbartlett.zenfolio.com/brcarfita/h7b93dd#h7b93dd

If you google Pilning High Level there is a wonderful picture taken by Ben Brooksbank showing two bogie carflats and a Collett Brake third in 1961

 

Richard

 

Just found another picture with 4 bogie carflats

[Fat Controller]

If you google Pilning High Level there is a wonderful picture taken by Ben Brooksbank showing two bogie carflats and a Collett Brake third in 1961

 

Richard

The upgrade before the service was withdrawn..

When you see the amount of road traffic using the M4, and the two Severn Crossings, you might wonder how we managed. Although there was much less road traffic, a lot more used other routes; lorries from the western bit of South Wales used the route via Brecon, for example. As this made journeys quite prolonged, haulage firms often had exchange points around places like Ross and Hay, where trailers would be exchanged, so that West Midlands and South Walian drivers could do out and back journeys in a day. Car traffic on the Brecon- Llandovery- Carmarthen road during summer holidays was very heavy, with jams blocking pinch-points such as Carmarthen, Llandeilo and Llandovery.

[Fat Controller]

I think you'll find the Welsh end is actually in Wales, either that or Chepstow has been stolen in a English land grab !

My grandfather, who's family were from around there, would say that the western ends were in Monmouthshire, not Wales. England started at Tutshill, on the Gloucester side of the bridge over the Wye at Chepstow

[steam69]

The upgrade before the service was withdrawn..

When you see the amount of road traffic using the M4, and the two Severn Crossings, you might wonder how we managed. Although there was much less road traffic, a lot more used other routes; lorries from the western bit of South Wales used the route via Brecon, for example. As this made journeys quite prolonged, haulage firms often had exchange points around places like Ross and Hay, where trailers would be exchanged, so that West Midlands and South Walian drivers could do out and back journeys in a day. Car traffic on the Brecon- Llandovery- Carmarthen road during summer holidays was very heavy, with jams blocking pinch-points such as Carmarthen, Llandeilo and Llandovery.

My father used the Aust ferry in the 1960s and I remember many occasion he waited many hours to cross over to wales, he too used alternatives including the railway (on the shuttle between pilning & STJ) but his company didn't like it when he submitted his expenses.

 

Richard

[Adam]

My grandfather, who's family were from around there, would say that the western ends were in Monmouthshire, not Wales. England started at Tutshill, on the Gloucester side of the bridge over the Wye at Chepstow

 

Completely off the point, but I've always wondered  when Monmouthshire came to be regarded as 'English', or at least not Welsh. Certainly not before the seventeenth century, though that said, at that point, significant areas of south west Herefordshire and bits of Shropshire were Welsh-speaking, at least in part. Certainly when I encounter them in the day job (as a historian), they're referred to as 'in Wales' or in 'Marchia Wallia' (in the March of Wales - not how we'd generally use the term now).

 

All those 21ton fitted minerals branded 'To work in South Wales and Monmouthshire only' suggest that this was the case in the '60s, but I doubt anyone would now suggest that the area was now anything other than Welsh. Or would they?

 

Adam

[Joseph_Pestell]

I think you'll find the Welsh end is actually in Wales, either that or Chepstow has been stolen in a English land grab !

 

No, it isn't. The north end of the Severn Bridge is in Gloucestershire on a small peninsula of land between the Severn and Wye. It is the Wye Bridge which links England with Wales.

[Joseph_Pestell]

I think it was part of the 1972 Local Govt Act that defined Monmouthshire/Gwent as being in Wales, once and for all.

[jonny777]

No, it isn't. The north end of the Severn Bridge is in Gloucestershire on a small peninsula of land between the Severn and Wye. It is the Wye Bridge which links England with Wales.

 

Beachley Point is the small peninsular in England. The English/Welsh boundary runs midway through the river Wye.

 

Basically there are three 'parts' to the crossing in that area; the (old) Severn Bridge, the Beachley Viaduct and the Wye Bridge. Only the western half of the Wye Bridge is in Wales, the rest are in England.

[Peter Kazmierczak]

Summer 1962 service - hardly intensive.....

 

Weekdays

Pilning d. 08.30(MO) 10.20 17.15(SO) 19.00(SX) 20.35(SO)

STJ a. 08.48 10.38 17.31 19.18 20.53

 

STJ d. 09.10 14.55(SO) 16.40(SX) 18.30(SO)

Pilning a. 09.27 15.10 16.57 18.45

 

 

Two trains each way on a Sunday

 

Edit - Sorry but the formatting seems to have gone AWOL.

[bike2steam]

Even given the fact that car carrying was done through the Severn Tunnel, taking into consideration loading, and unloading, I wonder how much time it actually saved compared to driving via Gloucester ??

[Fat Controller]

Even given the fact that car carrying was done through the Severn Tunnel, taking into consideration loading, and unloading, I wonder how much time it actually saved compared to driving via Gloucester ??

Having driven via Gloucester, I would say 'quite a bit'. Loading and unloading would only take five to ten minutes, whilst the drive to Gloucester and back down again would be the best part of 60 miles; on the roads of that time, that would be a couple of hours, given you'd be driving through the jams at Chepstow, Lydney and Gloucester.

[Arthur]

 

It would take an hour, at least, even today and that includes using the M5 for the east of the Severn leg. Takes me half an hour to get to Gloucester and I'm a third of the way there from Chepstow.

[Arthur]

 

One of the Aust-Beachey ferries, note the vehicle turntable to help maximise loading;

 

 

That might be the Severn Princess which has long been the subject of a preservation attempt, there was some progress a couple of years back though I've not heard anything recently.

[Kris]

And also, why did it take until 1924 to start the service (same year as the ferry)?

 

 Possibly too few cars to justify either before this. 

[Joseph_Pestell]

Summer 1962 service - hardly intensive.....

 

Weekdays

Pilning d. 08.30(MO) 10.20 17.15(SO) 19.00(SX) 20.35(SO)

STJ a. 08.48 10.38 17.31 19.18 20.53

 

STJ d. 09.10 14.55(SO) 16.40(SX) 18.30(SO)

Pilning a. 09.27 15.10 16.57 18.45

 

 

Two trains each way on a Sunday

 

Edit - Sorry but the formatting seems to have gone AWOL.

 

Like in a similar post from you on the Oxford - Cambridge service at the same era, the timings and frequency were so unattractive as to discourage traffic and thereby bring about failure and closure. Given the demand that must have been there to justify the bridge, either a better train car shuttle service or a proper ferry would surely have been justified. I remember travelling across the Scheldt in the early 60s and that ferry was similar to those on the cross-Channel routes.

[Tim V]

The queue for the ferry one year made my father drive via Gloucester the next year - I don't think it made much difference. It did save sitting for hours in the heat on that road to the Aust Ferry.