Assistance with fitting Kadees

[petertg]

Hi all! Here I am again with more questions.

Since I had only 4 UK passenger coaches for 3 steam locomotives, I decided to lash out and buy some more passenger and goods stock. Since one of the locomotives is a Fowler tank in LMS livery, I purchased 4 Dapol coaches in LMS livery to go with it.  These coaches do not have Nem pockets (see photo below)

I also purchased a set of Bachmann goods vehicles. Some seem to have Nem pockets (models 37-586 and 37-508, please confirm), whereas the others do not have pockets and the fitted couplings do not seem to be the same on all  models

I would like to fit Kadees to all these vehicles, but, before making a mess of things, I would like to receive informattion on how to set about it and on which Kadees I should acquire for each particular model. I would stress that I have 1st radius curves on the layout.

If suitable information has already been published on the forum, please direct me to it.

Thanking you in advance for any help you can give me.

[66C]

Hi Peter

 

Based on my previous experience with a variety of OO stock:

 

First photo - Airfix type coupling - remove the coupling but not the mounting bracket.  Within the mounting bracket cut away the central pin only.  With the cover clip in place glue (roughen the plastic and use epoxy as the plastic is nylon based and solvents will not work) a #20 Kadee in the slot.  Adjust the position of the coupler before the glue sets solid.

 

Second photo - early Bachmann coupling integral with coach bogies - cut away the coupling from the hook pivot outwards to leave a flat platform.  On top of the platform mount a #5 Kadee or #26 Kadee (if the shank of the #5 is not long enough) and secure in place with a small self tapping screw.  Glue may not be effective because of the plastic used for the bogies but may be worth a try.

 

Third photo - small Tri-Ang compatible coupler - remove coupler and keep the fixing screw.  Hold a #20 Kadee over the location for the coupler to determine the position of the hole to drill in the shank of the #20.  Drill the shank of the #20 to accommodate the original fixing screw of the coupler.  Fix the #20 in place using the screw.

 

If you need pictures to supplement my words  - let me know.

 

Regards.

Edited July 16, 2016 by 66C

[Butler Henderson]

Rather than removing the central pin from the Airfix type mount leave that in place and use a suitably sized drill to make a "hole" in the prongs of the NEM Kadee so that fits "through" the central pin - slight bending out of the prongs may be necessary. That will strengthen the fixing in place of the Kadee.

 

Some of these various bodges in fitting Kadees to UK stock are described in this article

[petertg]

Hi Peter

 

Based on my previous experience with a variety of OO stock:

 

First photo - Airfix type coupling - remove the coupling but not the mounting bracket.  Within the mounting bracket cut away the central pin only.  With the cover clip in place glue (roughen the plastic and use epoxy as the plastic is nylon based and solvents will not work) a #20 Kadee in the slot.  Adjust the position of the coupler before the glue sets solid.

 

Second photo - early Bachmann coupling integral with coach bogies - cut away the coupling from the hook pivot outwards to leave a flat platform.  On top of the platform mount a #5 Kadee or #26 Kadee (if the shank of the #5 is not long enough) and secure in place with a small self tapping screw.  Glue may not be effective because of the plastic used for the bogies but may be worth a try.

 

Third photo - small Tri-Ang compatible coupler - remove coupler and keep the fixing screw.  Hold a #20 Kadee over the location for the coupler to determine the position of the hole to drill in the shank of the #20.  Drill the shank of the #20 to accommodate the original fixing screw of the coupler.  Fix the #20 in place using the screw.

 

If you need pictures to supplement my words  - let me know.

 

Regards.

Thanks for this information, but I believe that I do need to see some photos to clarify my ideas.

Do I need to remove the bogie and how is it done? With the state of my hands I can't see me working with it in place. Also, are the wheels plastic or metal?

 

Thanks also to Butler Henderson. I have printed out the text in question.

[66C]

Hi Peter

 

It is necessary to remove the bogie - simply unscrew the retaining screw that is in your photograph.  My photograph shows a long shank Kadee so that the draft box can be put back so that it is not visible when the coach is on the track.  The Kadee should be positioned so that the flat at the rear of the opening in the knuckle is level with the outside of the gangway if it is a corridor coach or level with the buffer faces if the coach is a non-corridor type.  In this case the plastic is suitable for fixing the Kadee with solvent so no fixing screw is necessary.  The original plastic wheels were replaced with metal wheels for better running - yours appear to be metal so no need to replace them.

 

 

For the Airfix type I found that the method described by Butler Henderson left too much "slop" in the fitting.  The Kadee shank is thinner than the space in the coupler fitting and so the Kadee can droop.  The tail of a #20 Kadee is also narrower than the shank of the Airfix type coupler and so can pivot without any means of keeping it in the centre other than the use of packing or glue.

 

Regards.

[petertg]

Hi 66C!

Thanks for the photo, but it seems to relate to my second photo. The first photo is of the bogie under the Dapol passenger coach and it does not have a centre screw but, apparently, a force-fitted plug. How do I get this apart? I don't want to start forcing things and break something important.

Regards

[Butler Henderson]

For the Airfix type I found that the method described by Butler Henderson left too much "slop" in the fitting.  The Kadee shank is thinner than the space in the coupler fitting and so the Kadee can droop.  The tail of a #20 Kadee is also narrower than the shank of the Airfix type coupler and so can pivot without any means of keeping it in the centre other than the use of packing or glue.

Did not make it clear that it still needs to be glued in place - the advantage of fitting on around the moulded pin is that the whole fixing will be stronger.

[66C]

Hi 66C!

Thanks for the photo, but it seems to relate to my second photo. The first photo is of the bogie under the Dapol passenger coach and it does not have a centre screw but, apparently, a force-fitted plug. How do I get this apart? I don't want to start forcing things and break something important.

Regards

 

Hi Peter

 

For some unknown reason I had it in my head that you were referring to the Bachmann bogie.

 

The Airfix type can be done in situ without removing the bogie since all the access needed is from below.

 

As far as the wheels are concerned I would recommend changing them to metal.  The Airfix style wheels have quite narrow flanges and so may not be happy with some types of pointwork.  Have a look at Hornby's replacement wheels - they are good quality and much cheaper than others available.

 

Regards.

Edited July 18, 2016 by 66C

[petertg]

Thanks 66C for the information, but it is not clear to me how to do it. If you have any photos or can direct me to where there any, it would be a great help.

Thanks in advance

[66C]

Hi Peter

 

I don't have any that I converted at home as they were all done for club stock.  I have, however, added a couple of indicators to your picture and hopefully they will help with the following explanation.

 

 

First of all remove the clip below the coupling - this is indicated by the green ellipse.  It can levered off with a small flat bladed screwdriver.  Keep this for later.

This will release the original coupling if you have not already removed it.

The next step is to remove the central pin indicated by the red arrow.  This needs to be cut down so that the space between the lugs that secure the clip is flat.  This can be done by cutting away as much as possible of the pin with a pair of cutters and then finishing to a level surface with needle files.  This will be easier if the wheels are removed.

Prepare some epoxy glue and smear some in the space where the new coupler will sit.  Also smear epoxy around the shank of a #20 Kadee coupler and place the Kadee in its approximate position.  If necessary, add more epoxy to fill the space around the shank of the Kadee and then replace the clip removed in the first step.  As the epoxy cures, adjust the position of the Kadee so that it is central and in the correct fore and aft position.  Don't worry about any excess epoxy - it can be trimmed away with a craft knife once it has set.

 

It will be Thursday before I will be able to get a photo of a completed conversion and I will try to remember.

 

Regards.

[petertg]

I am back here because, after months of hesitation, I decided to have a go at the Dapol coaches. In the first place, I found that both bogies were the wrong way round, with the couplings pointing inwards and not outwards (this was the case with three of the four coaches I purchased) and to avoid forcing things, I removed the wheels (it took me a lot of fiddling about to get them back again). I removed the clip and the original coupling. I then tried drilling a hole through the legs of the Kadee coupling but couldn't do it properly, so I decided to stick the coupling to a strip of styrene and then drill a hole through the styrene right at the end of the legs. This fitted over the pin on the bogie and I held it in place with the clip. This fitting is obviously provisional, since the coupling projects out much farther than suggested by 66C above but is just at the right height as shown by the Kadee gauge. This leads me to ask two questions, namely:
1. If I move the coupling back in to the level suggested, it seems that two coaches would have the buffers almost touching and I am wondering whether, in this situation, the coaches would be able to follow the 1st radius curves I have on my layout. What is the opinion on this?
2. 66C also suggested changing the wheels. The current wheels measure 16.51 mm across the flanges and 14.51 mm across the treads. The Hornby wheels I have located are 12.6 mm spoked wheels, which I assume are for goods vehicles or 14.1 mm wheels. Are these measurements across the flange or across the tread? If the 14.1 mm is across the tread, these wheels would reduce the ride height by 0.4 mm and also the coupling height and, since the couplings have to be at a precise height, this difference might cause problems. What is the opinion on this?

[Dungrange]

The wheel diameter is always measured across the tread.  However the reduction in ride height will only be half of the difference in diameter as the radius (ie the distance between the tread and the centre of the axle) is half the diameter.  Therefore, for the diameters you quote the ride height will only be reduced by 0.2 mm.  You are correct that the Kadee couplings need to be mounted at the correct height, but I wouldn't have thought 0.2 mm would matter much.  You will be lucky if you can fit couplings to that tolerance.  It would however be preferable to fit the replacement wheels before fitting the couplings and checking against the Kadee height gauge.

 

How far forward you mount the couplings will be dependent on how tight your curves are.  If they are generous radii, then try to mount the Kadees as far back as possible to get relatively close coupling (which looks better). However, since you are using first radius curves, you will have to mount the couplings further forward to avoid buffer locking on your stock on the tightest curves.  I will suggest that this is largely a trial and error exercise until you determine how far the couplings have to protrude for your layout to operate satisfactorily.

[298]

I will suggest that this is largely a trial and error exercise until you determine how far the couplings have to protrude for your layout to operate satisfactorily.

When I fitted them to 4mm stock 20 years agonizing generally found it best to mount the centreline of the pin level with the face of the corridor connector. But that was on Mk1 and newer stock where the buffer heads could be placed in a retracted position when using Buckeyes, and body mounted at a scale height where the coupling should be.

[petertg]

In the first place, I would say that I have obtained locally an adhesive which sticks with no problem to the plastic of the Dapol bogies. The manufacturer is Ceys. and is predicated for "difficult plastics". It comes with a tube of primer liquid which is rubbed on both parts and then the adhesive is applied to one part only. I am unaware as to whether it is available in the U.K.

I made several attempts to fit the couplers, but none was satisfactory. They were misfitted and hung too low, except for one which I fitted on top of the bogie arm and then it was far too high.

Yesterday I came to the conclusion that the only solution was to manufacture an adhoc pocket in the bogie arm itself. To do this, I ground away the cenetre pin and the side walls and cut a groove the width of the coupler shank in the bogie arm. I then stuck a small piece of styrene strip on the top side of the groove, turned the coach upside down and stuck the coupler to the styrene showing through the groove and finally stuck another small piece of styrene strip on the under side of the arm. Since I wasn't too exact with the size of the styrene pieces, I then had to fettle away a small excess amount to be able to refit the wheels. This time the height was just right. So I now have to remove the misfitted couplers and refit them as above.

[petertg]

Forgive me for reviving this matter so longer after deeming it closed. I am totally unsatisfied with the rhe results and since the blogs contain so many illustrations of successful conversions, I would like to give it another go.

So, is it possible to open up the Dapol coaches witout without making an utter shambles of it or, it lor al least it it possible to remove the bogies and get then back in place again properly?

Also, if I wanted to fit more appropriate bogies, bearing in mind that I replaced the original 14,51 wheels with slightly smaller Hornby wheels, were could I obtain them and would they require much surgery to refit them to the cars. As mentioned in a previous post, there seems to be no easy way to remove then from the outiside.

Any  help will be apprediated.

[Dad-1]

Kadees CAN work, but in my opinion are a flawed system for use with '00' British outline

freight stock.

O.K. This will almost certainly cause a storm, but it's true.

It can easily be said that the problem is caused by ...... everything BUT the Kadees !!

Get the fitted height right to within 0.04 of a mm ? Perfect central alignment ? Remove

any slack in the axle boxes so the wagon always tracks EXACTLY over the centre-line

of your magnets. Keep B2B's to a level where there is little lateral slack.

 

What a load of rubbish !!

 

The idea is great, the engineering of components is commendably good - SO WHATS WRONG ?

 

Whats wrong is that British outline freight, in fact almost any piece of rolling stock has magnetic

metal wheel sets, wagons are also usually ballasted by mild steel weights, all this is prone to

producing Magnet Creep. Magnet creep stops the Kadees from working as planned due to a

piece of rolling stock following the train and not fully disengaging.

 

I have heard it's always the modellers fault - Too much magnet, or conversely too little magnet.

Well, to operate well into the free shunting mode there needs to be enough magnetic pull to

separate the knuckles. This is already enough to cause creep, reduce the magnetic pull until

there is no creep and the couplings won't function fully !!

 

As to super free running stock, something that I've always thought as being the ideal (and I

have run a 57 wagon train at an exhibition) it is a curse for Kadees, accelerating the magnet

creep problem.

 

I do have them working to around 90 - 95%, but this is achieved on a shunting puzzle where

all the stock used has been fitted with brass wire brakes. The down side of that is a light

Hornby sentinel 0-4-0 is unable to pull 6 wagons without slipping to a halt. Luckily that is the

absolute limit of train length only used very occasionally, and with 5 wagons it will just manage.

 

The principal is good, the engineering is good, but the sad truth is they are not really compatible

with the British outline wagon, be that kit made, or from any of the other RTR manufacturers.

Yes I do have a big choice of wagons (close to 500) from up to a dozen different sources.

 

Dad-1

[Jaggzuk]

And so your better solution is what, Dad-1 ?

 

I agree that they require careful installation and set-up and in some cases axel braking, but the handsfree operation far outways any negative aspect and my 8 year old can shunt quite happily now compared to the standard RTR tension lock coupling.

 

The closer coupling that can be achieved from Kadee is also significant visual benefit.

 

I know other systems can work well too.

Edited October 13, 2018 by Jaggzuk

[Dad-1]

Sadly Kadees offer a great solution to an insurmountable problem of finding a cheap simple way of uncoupling.

The original OP was specifically interested in coaches and I have run a friends layout where working with bogie

coach stock was very reliable. I don't uncouple my passenger trains as I only run them on a Roundy-Roundy.

 

For a short siding weeds can activate the standard tension lock couplings. As with every system there is a problem !

What you can't do is run a locomotive over the weeds, they stand too high for the limited clearence under locomotives.

Here is a short video -

 

For my large layout where I run trains of 40+ and need to separate at any location around a 45 ft + circuit I use a manual

method. There is some derision regarding the 'Hand of God', however there was no automatic uncoupling in BR freight

yards. They all relied on a shunter with his pole, so in actual fact shunting with a magnet on a stick is much more prototypical

than an automatic magnetic, or weed activating system !!

 

The difficulty is being within easy reach - NOT always possible and as good a reason as I can think of for trying, and trying again

to succeed in finding what Kadees need on YOUR layout

 

Dad-1

[Butler Henderson]

I resolve the magnetic wheel issue by fitting the original Bachmann plastic centred axles.  I have only found the odd one which does not run true and they often turn up in bulk on ebay . If yoy have a rake of wagons that stays fixed together then the natural drag normally overrides the magnetic pull so its not necessary to change wheels on those.