First Prototype Layout Help

[Southern_Trains_Fan]

Hey all,

 

Pretty soon I'm going to be starting work on my new layout which will be a prototypical (hopefully!) 00 gauge model form on Nunhead station, South London. I have never, ever made a prototypical layout in my life, but have had 7 or 8 layouts based on my own design. I would love to be able to recreate Nunhead in 00 gauge, but where would I start? 

 

E.g.

How would I work out all of the scaling/dimensions?

What should I do first? (track, buildings etc.)(In previous layouts, I have just thrown things on the board in no particular order)

How do I know how high the station will need to be? (as it is raised up)

How do I go about connecting the baseboards together when it is all set up? (as it will be a portable layout)

What type of flex track should I use? (Finescale, I'm guessing)

 

There are endless questions to ask, :scratchhead:and, as I'm sure you can see, I'm fairly new to modelling complex, detailed and prototypical layouts. I could do with a lot of help!

 

I fell like I'm ready to move into the world of 'proper' modelling, but I'll need help with pretty much everything, from track laying to making sure the platform is to scale!

 

I have tried searching for local model clubs, but there are literally none at all within a 20 mile (roughly) radius of the place that I live, so that's pretty much out of the question.

 

Any help much appreciated,

Cheers,

Matt

 

Oh, I have found a rather good track plan of Nunhead with a scale on it, which will help greatly.

[LNER4479]

Hey all,

 

Pretty soon I'm going to be starting work on my new layout which will be a prototypical (hopefully!) 00 gauge model form on Nunhead station, South London. I have never, ever made a prototypical layout in my life, but have had 7 or 8 layouts based on my own design. I would love to be able to recreate Nunhead in 00 gauge, but where would I start? 

 

E.g.

How would I work out all of the scaling/dimensions?

What should I do first? (track, buildings etc.)(In previous layouts, I have just thrown things on the board in no particular order)

How do I know how high the station will need to be? (as it is raised up)

How do I go about connecting the baseboards together when it is all set up? (as it will be a portable layout)

What type of flex track should I use? (Finescale, I'm guessing)

 

There are endless questions to ask, :scratchhead:and, as I'm sure you can see, I'm fairly new to modelling complex, detailed and prototypical layouts. I could do with a lot of help!

 

I fell like I'm ready to move into the world of 'proper' modelling, but I'll need help with pretty much everything, from track laying to making sure the platform is to scale!

 

I have tried searching for local model clubs, but there are literally none at all within a 20 mile (roughly) radius of the place that I live, so that's pretty much out of the question.

 

Any help much appreciated,

Cheers,

Matt

 

Oh, I have found a rather good track plan of Nunhead with a scale on it, which will help greatly.

Welcome to the absorbing world of prototype modelling!

 

Don't know the place particularly (sorry) but there's bound to be a book or two featuring it or at least the route it's on. Despite the internet revolution, a good book or magazine article are often worth their weight in gold. I was lucky with Grantham as there was a specific book of the very place and of my time era. It has proved invaluable. Try browsing through the Middleton Press or Oakwood Press series to see if someone's done a book on the route.

 

You don't say what era you're modelling - would I assume looking at your avatar that it would be present era? In which case, some of the challenges of prototype modelling are not so great.

 

How feasible is it for you to do a site visit? Not only can you record details of the station architecture and the area immediately around, but you get a real 'feel' for the place. Buildings are reasonably easy to size up by taking nice square-on photos, counting bricks for verticals (roughly 4 bricks to a foot - oops - 300mm!) and pacing out for length and depth. I visited Grantham early on for a comprehensive walk round and photo session. Still referring to those photos even now.

 

Finescale track? Hmm! Depends what your priority is. Unless the trackwork there is fiendishly complex then Peco pointwork can be used to create most trackwork formations. But on the other hand if good looking track is important to you then finescale and hand / kit built points it is.

 

Station raised up? Do you mean on railway arches? If so, then bear in mind that typical clearance for a road vehicle under a railway arch is about 15 feet (there I go again!) so 60mm. Add the arch on the top of that and the railway can easily be 20 foot (80mm) or more above any surrounding roads.

 

Hope that gives you some pointers. Good luck!

[Nick Holliday]

Bing images come up with quite a few photos, and some show the road bridge, with a height restriction sign of 14' 3" (57 mm in 4mm), and I am sure Google Streetview can come up with some others. The remaining structures on the platform look timber built, so not possible to scale, but if you know the platform width (I think around 15 / 16 feet) then scaling off a square view should give you a good idea of the cross section through the canopy.

[Southern_Trains_Fan]

Welcome to the absorbing world of prototype modelling!

 

Don't know the place particularly (sorry) but there's bound to be a book or two featuring it or at least the route it's on. Despite the internet revolution, a good book or magazine article are often worth their weight in gold. I was lucky with Grantham as there was a specific book of the very place and of my time era. It has proved invaluable. Try browsing through the Middleton Press or Oakwood Press series to see if someone's done a book on the route.

 

You don't say what era you're modelling - would I assume looking at your avatar that it would be present era? In which case, some of the challenges of prototype modelling are not so great.

 

How feasible is it for you to do a site visit? Not only can you record details of the station architecture and the area immediately around, but you get a real 'feel' for the place. Buildings are reasonably easy to size up by taking nice square-on photos, counting bricks for verticals (roughly 4 bricks to a foot - oops - 300mm!) and pacing out for length and depth. I visited Grantham early on for a comprehensive walk round and photo session. Still referring to those photos even now.

 

Finescale track? Hmm! Depends what your priority is. Unless the trackwork there is fiendishly complex then Peco pointwork can be used to create most trackwork formations. But on the other hand if good looking track is important to you then finescale and hand / kit built points it is.

 

Station raised up? Do you mean on railway arches? If so, then bear in mind that typical clearance for a road vehicle under a railway arch is about 15 feet (there I go again!) so 60mm. Add the arch on the top of that and the railway can easily be 20 foot (80mm) or more above any surrounding roads.

 

Hope that gives you some pointers. Good luck!

 

Cheers very much for this, it helps a lot!

 

Yes, I will be modelling in the modern era (2010-present), and I am going down to London next week where I will be travelling to different stations (London Bridge, Clapham Junction etc.) just to take some photos of trains etc., so a visit to Nunhead will be fairly easy, and I'm hoping to do so

 

Cheers for your help very much,

 

Cheers,

Matt

 

P.S. Grantham is my most used ECML station, and I'll be travelling from there next week

[Southern_Trains_Fan]

Bing images come up with quite a few photos, and some show the road bridge, with a height restriction sign of 14' 3" (57 mm in 4mm), and I am sure Google Streetview can come up with some others. The remaining structures on the platform look timber built, so not possible to scale, but if you know the platform width (I think around 15 / 16 feet) then scaling off a square view should give you a good idea of the cross section through the canopy.

 

Thanks for the help

 

Yes I did have a look on both Bing maps (I find the 'birds-eye view' very helpful!) and Google street view, and both helped greatly. Also, thanks for the other tips for scaling etc.

 

Cheers very much,

Matt

[unravelled]

I live just up the road from Nunhead, let me know if you want  any current photos of the station and local area. The station is on a high embankment, but by the junction to th East it is in cutting. To the West the route was built with bridge abutments for four tracks, though the bridges are only two track.

 

Dave

[Steamport Southport]

As LNER4479 has pointed out it's worth having a look at the Middleton Press books. As well as photos and information on the line and stations they usually come with large scale Ordnance Survey maps.

 

 

There are two books from MP, both in the London Suburban Railways series.

 

Holborn Viaduct to Lewisham including the Greenwich Park Branch

 

Crystal Palace (High Level) and Catford Loop

 

https://www.middletonpress.co.uk/results.html?search=nunhead&id=489

 

 

 

 

 

Jason

[Mark Forrest]

Google Earth is a good resource for estimating dimensions of the location that you want to model. You may find that the site is bigger than you think, in which case some "selective compression" to move certain features closer together can be a good way to capture the look of a place in a smaller area.

 

Whenever I look at prototype plans it is usually the depth of the layout required to get the features in that takes me by surprise. An average sized baseboard of about 2' front to back doesn't seem to translate to much once you over lay it on a scale plan or map.

 

As for track; largely down to personal preference and whether or not you fancy having a go at making some of your own pointwork etc.

[Southern_Trains_Fan]

I live just up the road from Nunhead, let me know if you want  any current photos of the station and local area. The station is on a high embankment, but by the junction to th East it is in cutting. To the West the route was built with bridge abutments for four tracks, though the bridges are only two track.

 

Dave

 

Hey there Dave,

 

Photos would be immensely helpful! I'm hoping to get a few quick snaps when I'm down there in a couple of weeks, but yes, I would much appreciate any photos you have to offer

 

Cheers for your help,

Matt

As LNER4479 has pointed out it's worth having a look at the Middleton Press books. As well as photos and information on the line and stations they usually come with large scale Ordnance Survey maps.

 

 

There are two books from MP, both in the London Suburban Railways series.

 

Holborn Viaduct to Lewisham including the Greenwich Park Branch

 

Crystal Palace (High Level) and Catford Loop

 

https://www.middletonpress.co.uk/results.html?search=nunhead&id=489

 

 

 

 

 

Jason

 

Hi Jason,

 

Thanks for this, I checked it out and seems like it will be very helpful indeed

 

Thanks very much for this,

Matt

[Southern_Trains_Fan]

Google Earth is a good resource for estimating dimensions of the location that you want to model. You may find that the site is bigger than you think, in which case some "selective compression" to move certain features closer together can be a good way to capture the look of a place in a smaller area.

 

Whenever I look at prototype plans it is usually the depth of the layout required to get the features in that takes me by surprise. An average sized baseboard of about 2' front to back doesn't seem to translate to much once you over lay it on a scale plan or map.

 

As for track; largely down to personal preference and whether or not you fancy having a go at making some of your own pointwork etc.

 

Hi Mark,

 

Yes, I have been thinking of the width of the board, and I agree that I will need to do some moderate compression in the right areas.

 

I am also considering making my own track. I have never done it before, nor do I even know where to start (where to buy equipment, what I'll need, how to actually do it), but it does seem like a task that I'm interested in. I would very much like to give it a go!

 

Cheers for your help,

Matt

[Nick Holliday]

Matt

I think I may have given you some duff information.  I had used the old-maps website to find some large scale OS plans of the station, but I hadn't realised that it was re-located in 1925 to its current location, and the dimension I scaled off was for the old four track, two platform station, which was closer to the goods yard and junction. I have had a look at more recent maps and came up with the following simplified plan for the station platforms.

nunhead.pdf

As you can see, the overall length just from the far abutment of the road bridge to the end of the platform is around 700 feet, which would scale up to around 9 feet in 4mm.  I assume that your basic unit will be a four coach train, so one of those is well over 3 feet in length. You might be able to shorten the platform a small amount, but too much would make the train overwhelm the station.  Bing maps aerial view currently shows a four car unit in the platform, which shows that it is as long as the canopy. 

I would suggest you do a lot of planning before spending too much effort on building the layout.  You should be happy that your layout will deliver what you are after, in terms of visual and operational satisfaction.  You talk about having fiddle yards at each end, which means that you will need to be able to get to both ends easily to maintain a service.  As the current track plan is only a simple two track station, with no goods yard all you will be able to do is run EMU's backwards and forwards, and you'll have to deal with the fiddle yards at both ends each time you run a train or two. In addition, your fiddle yards will need to be at least as long as your longest train, and I would have thought that you would want to cater for the occasional 8 coach train, or perhaps at least a 5 coach Brighton Belle perhaps.  I don't know what, if any, goods traffic would be pertinent for your era, but most tended to be long affairs, albeit infrequent visitors, I suspect.  I am assuming that your stated 12 feet of baseboards is for the landscaped section, to which you will need to add, at the very minimum, another 8 feet for the fiddle yards, making 20 feet overall. One problem with a situation like Nunhead, where the station is set on an embankment, is how you can hide the exit to the fiddle yards, although it does make for a good presentation of the stock as it passes through the scene.  You might find it useful to knock up a quick model of the model, perhaps at a quarter scale, which may help you to picture how things could turn out.

You are talking about making your own track and points, but, as far as I can see, if you are modelling the passenger station the track is completely plain, and although there was a crossover between the two tracks when first built, that seemed to have disappeared by the time you are looking at.  I cannot see how you could accommodate the junction and goods yard further to the east in the space you have.

 

[roundhouse]

I often use the old method of pacing out buildings after measuring how long my typical pace is a few times. Counting bricks to get measurements of brick built structures. Just measure one brick allowing for the mortar joint first

 

These days I use laser electronic measuring device. Bosch do them quite cheaply. A bit harder ot use to measure from an external corner to external corner. very useful to measure heights out of reach such as bridges, underside of canopy etc.

 

Do visit the station outside peak times as using the laser will no doubt upset people even though they are very low powered. Also worth asking permission if you are doing this and taking photos so at least they know what you are doing.

 

I believe Nunhead track plan is in one of the OPC Illustrated History of Southern books but cant remember for sure

[Southern_Trains_Fan]

Matt

I think I may have given you some duff information.  I had used the old-maps website to find some large scale OS plans of the station, but I hadn't realised that it was re-located in 1925 to its current location, and the dimension I scaled off was for the old four track, two platform station, which was closer to the goods yard and junction. I have had a look at more recent maps and came up with the following simplified plan for the station platforms.

nunhead.pdf

As you can see, the overall length just from the far abutment of the road bridge to the end of the platform is around 700 feet, which would scale up to around 9 feet in 4mm.  I assume that your basic unit will be a four coach train, so one of those is well over 3 feet in length. You might be able to shorten the platform a small amount, but too much would make the train overwhelm the station.  Bing maps aerial view currently shows a four car unit in the platform, which shows that it is as long as the canopy. 

I would suggest you do a lot of planning before spending too much effort on building the layout.  You should be happy that your layout will deliver what you are after, in terms of visual and operational satisfaction.  You talk about having fiddle yards at each end, which means that you will need to be able to get to both ends easily to maintain a service.  As the current track plan is only a simple two track station, with no goods yard all you will be able to do is run EMU's backwards and forwards, and you'll have to deal with the fiddle yards at both ends each time you run a train or two. In addition, your fiddle yards will need to be at least as long as your longest train, and I would have thought that you would want to cater for the occasional 8 coach train, or perhaps at least a 5 coach Brighton Belle perhaps.  I don't know what, if any, goods traffic would be pertinent for your era, but most tended to be long affairs, albeit infrequent visitors, I suspect.  I am assuming that your stated 12 feet of baseboards is for the landscaped section, to which you will need to add, at the very minimum, another 8 feet for the fiddle yards, making 20 feet overall. One problem with a situation like Nunhead, where the station is set on an embankment, is how you can hide the exit to the fiddle yards, although it does make for a good presentation of the stock as it passes through the scene.  You might find it useful to knock up a quick model of the model, perhaps at a quarter scale, which may help you to picture how things could turn out.

You are talking about making your own track and points, but, as far as I can see, if you are modelling the passenger station the track is completely plain, and although there was a crossover between the two tracks when first built, that seemed to have disappeared by the time you are looking at.  I cannot see how you could accommodate the junction and goods yard further to the east in the space you have.

 

Hi there Nick, 

 

Yes, I had noticed that the plan was the old former Nunhead station. Thanks for the PDF document included in your reply though, these measurements will come in handy. I think I will have to compress the station slightly in order to fit a good deal of scenery/out-of-station running space in as well as the station itself. Do you think I could get away with compressing it to 6 or 7 feet long?

I am looking to run mainly the Hornby Networker in SouthEastern livery available from Olivia's Trains, although I'm not too keen on it's performance reputation, considering that this loco was released pre-2000, As far as I remember.

 

I am beginning to go off the idea of making my own track, because as you say, I doubt that, in my available space, the junction will be present. 

 

Making a quick 'mock up' to scale might help give me an idea of how the layout will look, so thanks very much for your help, and thanks for taking the time to write

 

Cheers,

Matt

[unravelled]

I've just done a trawl through my images to see what I have. The result is this album on Flickr:

 

https://www.flickr.com/photos/unravelled/albums/72157671267356775

 

Some pictures of the station but also lots showing the views from the platform, which clearly show the elevation. You are above rooftop height of the surrounding houses. One poor picture from Evelina rd showung the height of the railway at the western end of the station. the other pictures are t the junction to the east, and some road level shots showing the 4 track formation to the west.

I won't be able to get any more pictures for a couple of weeks, but if there's any detail you want after your visit I can take some more then.

 

Thanks

 

Dave

[Mark Forrest]

I am also considering making my own track. I have never done it before, nor do I even know where to start (where to buy equipment, what I'll need, how to actually do it), but it does seem like a task that I'm interested in. I would very much like to give it a go!

A good starting point is Iain Rice's book An Approach to Building Finescale Track (Wild Swan). Some of the materials used are a bit dated now, most people use plastic chairs with either ply or plastic timbers rather than the rivet and ply approach, but remains a useful and informative source.

 

For your era, you are likely to want flat bottom rail. C&L Finescale do a track base with concrete sleepers as well as the Peco flexi track product. When it comes to points, I think almost all the kits (C&L, SMP, etc) use bullhead rail, the exception being those from Colin Craig (see http://colincraig4mm.co.uk/s-c/4532599929 ).

 

If you are able to get to one of the finescale shows (e.g. Scaleforum in Aylesbury or ExpoEM North in Manchester - both during September) there will be plenty of people there who have built their own track and can talk you through the pros and cons. Don't be put off by these events being aimed at the EM and P4 modeller, most of the materials and techniques used are equally applicable in 00.

[Southern_Trains_Fan]

I've just done a trawl through my images to see what I have. The result is this album on Flickr:

 

https://www.flickr.com/photos/unravelled/albums/72157671267356775

 

Some pictures of the station but also lots showing the views from the platform, which clearly show the elevation. You are above rooftop height of the surrounding houses. One poor picture from Evelina rd showung the height of the railway at the western end of the station. the other pictures are t the junction to the east, and some road level shots showing the 4 track formation to the west.

I won't be able to get any more pictures for a couple of weeks, but if there's any detail you want after your visit I can take some more then.

 

Thanks

 

Dave

 

Hey Dave,

 

These photos will really come in handy when planning and building the layout!

 

If I can't get any when I'm down there in a week or so, I don't suppose you have any photos showing the position of the signals, and which aspect they are etc.?

 

Cheers very much for your help,

Matt

[Southern_Trains_Fan]

A good starting point is Iain Rice's book An Approach to Building Finescale Track (Wild Swan). Some of the materials used are a bit dated now, most people use plastic chairs with either ply or plastic timbers rather than the rivet and ply approach, but remains a useful and informative source.

 

For your era, you are likely to want flat bottom rail. C&L Finescale do a track base with concrete sleepers as well as the Peco flexi track product. When it comes to points, I think almost all the kits (C&L, SMP, etc) use bullhead rail, the exception being those from Colin Craig (see http://colincraig4mm.co.uk/s-c/4532599929 ).

 

If you are able to get to one of the finescale shows (e.g. Scaleforum in Aylesbury or ExpoEM North in Manchester - both during September) there will be plenty of people there who have built their own track and can talk you through the pros and cons. Don't be put off by these events being aimed at the EM and P4 modeller, most of the materials and techniques used are equally applicable in 00.

 

Hello there Mark,

 

Thanks for this information. I'll be sure to check it out as soon as possible. I checked out the C&L Finescale website, and the quality does look pretty good, but I may still consider building my own track purely because it's something new!

 

Cheers,

Matt

[Paragon]

Good luck Matt!

I'm at the planning stage too, but fortunately I'm aiming at it been an 'inspired by' project rather than a true prototype, that is, unless I make any more impulse buys, particularly in the Hopper department...

Paragon.

[unravelled]

Hey Dave,

 

These photos will really come in handy when planning and building the layout!

 

If I can't get any when I'm down there in a week or so, I don't suppose you have any photos showing the position of the signals, and which aspect they are etc.?

 

Cheers very much for your help,

Matt

No problem, but I won't be able to do it for a couple of weeks. What I could also do is a forward facing video out of the window, running into and out of the station, both ways. That should allow you to spot signals and other lineside equipment, and get their relative positions right.

I've done this a lot for the Bermondsey diveunder and a few for London Bridge. The combined advantages of a freedom pass and a camera small enough to get through the hopper ventilator...

 

Dave

[Southern_Trains_Fan]

Good luck Matt!

I'm at the planning stage too, but fortunately I'm aiming at it been an 'inspired by' project rather than a true prototype, that is, unless I make any more impulse buys, particularly in the Hopper department...

Paragon.

 

Hi Paragon,

 

Yes, 'inspired by' projects do tend to be lighter in terms of planning and pressure to get things right. That's why I've always opted for it until now. Fancied a change at long last

 

Cheers,

Matt

[Southern_Trains_Fan]

No problem, but I won't be able to do it for a couple of weeks. What I could also do is a forward facing video out of the window, running into and out of the station, both ways. That should allow you to spot signals and other lineside equipment, and get their relative positions right.

I've done this a lot for the Bermondsey diveunder and a few for London Bridge. The combined advantages of a freedom pass and a camera small enough to get through the hopper ventilator...

 

Dave

 

Hey Dave,

 

That would help hugely! A freedom pass, eh? Someone's clearly lucky!

 

Cheers for this, it means a lot and will really help

Matt