WR platform starting signals- correct positioning

[sigtech]

Hello everyone, despite coming from an S&T background, I am puzzling over what is the ideal positioning (and correct form) of the up platform starters at Sproston'

As you can see there is a main and a bay platform, both are used by passenger trains, other lines are the runround loop and parcels dock/loco shed access.

My question is that as this is a joint WR/LMR layout set 1956-1966 what would be the most likely arrangement?

I know that usual GWR practice is driver on the,RIGHT and so signal on left of the running line in normal direction of travel, however at Sproston that would be difficult due to the positioning of the runround loop alongside.

Edited to correct silly mistake!!

The idea of a 'balanced' bracket located at the end of the platform ramp, mounting both signals seems the neatest solution - but I believe it was not

common on the WR.

This means I assume the main starter has to be mounted 'wrongside' at the end of the ramp, would it have been on a bracket out over the running line, or would it be better as a straight post, enabling the platform staff to clearly see the signal? - now what about the Bay starter?

 

I also assume that due to WR practice there would be two separate signal posts, but due to the lack of room at the platform ramp and the possibility of confusion/misreading, that the bay starter would also be positioned on the 'wrongside' of the bay track, but would it be bracketed over the bay, or would this make confusion more likely, and therefore would that also be a straight post and is it in the best/correct position?

 

I ask these questions as at the moment I have two Ratio kit - built straight post GWR lower quadrants as starters, but plan to replace them with the very good Dapol GWR motorised lq signals (3 in use already).

You can see there current positioning relative to the running lines from the photos- is this correct?

I see that Dapol plan to bring out GWR lq bracket signals later, does anyone know the layout/format of the arms?(i.e home and distant or two homes/starter and LH or RH bracketed? - Just wondering if these would be useful in this situation.

I believe this question may be one for Mike (The Stationmaster) to explain to a relative signalling numpty like myself..

Regards

SIGTECH (Steve)

[Grovenor]

I think we need a track plan to make sense of that, from the photos some of the signals seem to be in sidings.

Regards

[Happy Hippo]

I think you'll find that usual GWR/BR(W) practice was driver on the right!

 

But as Keith says, a track plan is required so that those that know can advise accordingly.

[sigtech]

Ooops! of course - posted without thinking...

 

Attached signalling diagram should hopefully help to explain...

 

Regards

SIGTECH (Steve).

[The Stationmaster]

Steve,

 

Right - mostly understood although I'm slightly confused about which signal applies to what line.  anyway let's begin at the beginning.  Balanced brackets were relatively uncommon in later GWR and in all of WR years although they seem to have been more common prior to WWI and then gradually went during signal renewals and layout changes between the wars.  But just to confuse the issue my local branch terminus had an 'almost balanced' bracket in tubular steel which dated from the mid 1950s.  So -

 

1. Balanced brackets,especially in tubular steel, were rare (and in fact weren't easy to make precisely balanced due to the style of construction of the final bracket structure designed by Reading.

 

2. To get it out of the way - I understand the Dapol tubular steel post WR signals will initially be a simple stop signal (and possibly a distant) with the arm +17ft 6" above rail level if David Jones followed the dimensions I gave him.  The only sample of a  bracket I have ever seen a picture of looked like nothing ever seen on a WR line (or any other one come to that).

 

3.  Now to get to your specific situation.  Firstly you have set yourself a  problem with a point trailing in just before the end of the platform face on the left - usual Western practice would be to protect that connection with a  signal further back on the platform but as everything is compressed I suspect it might look rather daft to do it like that - especially as your platform starter for that platform would usually be exactly where you have placed a signal already at the foot of the ramp (but really too tall for that site.  The starter for the right hand platform would be exactly where you already have a signal - over on the right on the far side of the siding.

 

Which leaves me wondering what the signal in your right hand picture is for?

 

Over to you.

 

cheers

[The Stationmaster]

Ah, now the diagram has arrived and i can see what you've done.

 

Ideally I would - as above - move 19 back in rear of the fouling point for 15A - and it applies to the bay and it becomes 20.  Leave 21 where it is and it applies to the other platform (i.e. it is renumbered 19).  Add a new signal - which can be right next to 21, now 19) to apply to the loop etc - short arm with a ring on it.

 

Or compromise due to the space compression and leave 19 where it is but numbered 20 and remove the existing 20.  You then have too signals with full length arms for the two platforms.

[sigtech]

Hello Mike - thanks for coming to the rescue...

So if I understand  you correctly, it is a case of:  1.  New signal for exit from goods-loop, reduced size arm /ringed and numbered 21 and positioned alongside the present signal 21.

                                                                             2. Renumber signal 21 to 19.  

                                                                             3  Renumber signal 19 to 20.

                                                                             4. Remove the present signal 20.

 

There, hope 'Ive got it correct...

Regards

SIGTECH (Steve)

[The Stationmaster]

Spot on Steve.

[sigtech]

Hello again, just restarting this as I've recently found a photo in the latest 'Railway Modeller' that I feel needs to be explained with reference to the recent questions I posed in this topic regarding the positioning of starting signals.

I have scanned the photo in question,along with the layout trackplan, so maybe someone would like to comment on what appears to be the positioning of the

bracket signal: Bay Platform to Up Main/Bay platform shunt to carriage sidings?

The layout is meant to be 1938 - GWR in south Devon.

Thanks in advance for any help,

 

Regards

SIGTECH (Steve)

[The Stationmaster]

Steve,

 

You have got it right (or what it should be) - the short arm would read into the sidings.  Interestingly the mid platform connection sort of thing once existed at Kingswear and was signalled with a ground disc - in this case the facing point is in advance of the platform end to can readily be signalled by the platform starter.

 

The later way of doing it, as indeed happened at some places, would be to use a shunting disc on a small bracket off an ordinary straight post signal to do exactly the same thing (there were - as far as I can trace over the 20th century - a minimum of three different ways in which the GWR would have signalled this and a fourth was also quite likely for the early part of the century).

[sigtech]

Hello Mike, I thought this might interest you, the main reason I posted this was the fact that the bay starting signal is on the WRONG side of the track to which it applies, likewise for the main platform signal. This is a similar situation to the one I have on my layout, and I wondered what your opinion would be, as taking the information you kindly supplied, then the bay signal should be positioned where the present starting signal for the main platform is, and that signal should be alongside the ringed starting signal for exit from the yard...

This is of course only a model, but certainly more accurate to prototype fidelity than many...

Or is this situation different in some way- the reason I ask is that this positioning of signals is the only real option open for me to use on Sproston, due to space constraints imposed by the track layout and proximity of the boundary fence.

I hope you will be able to enlighten me - failing that then I suppose I will have to invoke Rule One....

 

Regards

SIGTECH Steve.

[sigtech]

Hello again everyone

I have been busy 'resignalling'  Sproston, and all bar one of the original 'Dapol' wooden post LQ Semaphores have now been replaced with the new shorter round post LQ's from the same manufacturer - these I think look much better.

I have also repositioned the Bay Starting signal, though due to space constraints it could not go in the ideal position, so I have copied the positioning as shown in the recent Railway Modeller magazine article above, making it on the' wrong side'  of the track to which it applies ,the only other option to this I feel is to quote "rule 1"..

The three doll lattice bracket inner home (an ex Hornby "cobbled together" structure)  has also been "modded", although I am painfully aware it is incorrect for this era/region and still overscale, despite the mainpost having been shortened by a scale 5ft, and the arms reduced to a 4ft and two 3ft lengths

.

I am going to investigate the fitting of some Ratio railings all the way around the platform - still working on the premise that any functioning signal is better than no signal at all !!!

Comments and observations always welcome.

Regards

SIGTECH (Steve)

[Stephen Freeman]

Hello Mike, I thought this might interest you, the main reason I posted this was the fact that the bay starting signal is on the WRONG side of the track to which it applies, likewise for the main platform signal. This is a similar situation to the one I have on my layout, and I wondered what your opinion would be, as taking the information you kindly supplied, then the bay signal should be positioned where the present starting signal for the main platform is, and that signal should be alongside the ringed starting signal for exit from the yard...

This is of course only a model, but certainly more accurate to prototype fidelity than many...

Or is this situation different in some way- the reason I ask is that this positioning of signals is the only real option open for me to use on Sproston, due to space constraints imposed by the track layout and proximity of the boundary fence.

I hope you will be able to enlighten me - failing that then I suppose I will have to invoke Rule One....

 

Regards

 

 

 

SIGTECH Steve.

Hi the GWR put signals where you would not expect eg Brent, usually down to sighting reasons

[The Stationmaster]

Hi the GWR put signals where you would not expect eg Brent, usually down to sighting reasons

 

The most unusual thing about GW/WR signal siting had nothing to do with sighting and a lot to do with locking as - in the words of our former Divisional Chief DI at Cardiff - 'the GWR always locked two back'.  Which meant that points, particularly trailing points, were not only protected by the running signal immediately in rear of them but also by the one in rear of that.  This led to a profusion of stop signals on running lines where there was pointwork - in fact the GWR was even more prolific with running signals than the oft quoted 'oversignalled' NER.

 

They of course had also applied the practice at facing points with what almost amounted to repeating arms on the signal in rear of the splitting signal sited at the point although such arms were worked by separate levers so weren't true repeaters in the signal engineering sense.  This practice had started to go out of favour by the 1920s - in which decade there was a campaign removal of the 'repeating' arms.

 

Another feature of GWR stop signal siting was a consequence of the abolition of the broad gauge and the continued use of right hand drive engines which facilitated the placing of running stop signals (with full size arms) in the wider than normal six foot - especially when they were in advance of such things as station footbridges.

 

Apart from that, and as with every other Railway, signal siting was governed by the usual sighting constraints although obviously the use of right hand drive could cause what might sometimes be regarded as 'unusual' sighting.   Seemingly as the sighting procedure became more sophisticated it had an impact at Brent with two signals (the Up Main Inner Home & the Up Main Advanced Starter) being placed to the right when, probably, the 1937 renewals took place whereas previously all the Main Lines running signals had been on the left.