Kitbuilding in the Air: Part 5 - The Priming Stage.

[OnTheBranchline]

Hello everyone,

 

Ever since I moved into my sixth floor flat/apartment, I've been itching some kits as I have a backlog of them:

 

However, seeing as using toxic liquid cement in the apartment is not advisable, only the balcony would offer me the space/ventilation I would need. Today I decided would be the perfect day to do it as my girlfriend would be gone for the whole weekend and I did not have any commitments myself.

 

I would start with a Coopercraft GWR W1/W5 Cattle Wagon. The weather was a little humid but nothing too serious.

 

As you can see, I have a simple workbench with a simple set of tools:

 

After starting to build the kit, I noticed it was breezy but then again it is at least a little breezy around where I live because the apartment buildings in the area create a pseudo wind tunnel. I decided to tape down the newspaper underneath so that the newspaper would not be flapping all over the place.

 

I had just finish cutting out the sides and the end of the cattle wagon kit when a big gust of wind came across my balcony and carried very important piece of the kit away from me forever. Can you guess which bit it was:

 

I'll give you a hint, it was the instructions!

 

Now I am not afraid to build a kit without instructions as I have built kits before and generally know what bits go where. I carried on and started to glue the sides and ends together but the glue is not working as well as I thought it might. It is the Tamiya Extra Thin Cement and I must say that I am disappointed with it.

 

In the end, I became a bit frustrated with the whole exercise and brought my workbench indoors:

 

At the time of writing this thread, the wind has picked up substantially so it is better that I stopped.

 

But this experience thought me a very valuable lesson, always check the weather conditions before modelling!

 

PS: If anyone could send me the instructions for this kit, it would be highly appreciated.

[Brassey]

Hi

 

The instructions are available on the Cooper Craft website

 

http://cooper-craft.co.uk/Pages/23/Instructions.html

 

I have to say that after many decades of modelling with various liquid cement of one form or another I have not had any adverse side effects and never resorted to using it outdoors.  I wear a full face mask for paint spraying and smaller for soldering but never with poly.  Is that advised on the packaging?  The only risk I would see is if using it near a naked flame.

 

[Nile]

I agree with Brassey. An open window or door should provide you with enough ventilation to keep you safe.

Now get building before that backlog grows (and ends up like mine).

[OnTheBranchline]

Hi

 

The instructions are available on the Cooper Craft website

 

http://cooper-craft.co.uk/Pages/23/Instructions.html

 

I have to say that after many decades of modelling with various liquid cement of one form or another I have not had any advise side effects and never resorted to using it outdoors.  I wear a full face mask for paint spraying and smaller for soldering but never with poly.  Is that advised on the packaging?  The only risk I would see is if using it near a naked flame.

 

Well, it says:

1) "Harmful Vapor" on the front.

2) "Warning: This product contains chemicals which are known to the State of California to cause cancer, birth defects or other reproductive harm" on one side.

3) "Inhalation of vapors may cause central nervous system effects characterized by nausea, headache, dizziness, unconsciousness" on the other side.

 

So I think it is understandable that I would prefer not to use it in my own apartment even with the door open.

[Spitfire2865]

Well, it says:

1) "Harmful Vapor" on the front.

2) "Warning: This product contains chemicals which are known to the State of California to cause cancer, birth defects or other reproductive harm" on one side.

3) "Inhalation of vapors may cause central nervous system effects characterized by nausea, headache, dizziness, unconsciousness" on the other side.

 

So I think it is understandable that I would prefer not to use it in my own apartment even with the door open.

1) "Harmful Vapor" means it can be harmful in large quantities, aka, not a small tin.

2) EVERYTHING MAN-MADE causes cancer in California, but judging by your interests, I assume you are not in California.

 

Serious note, it is put on almost everything, cleaning products, some food products, I think Ive seen it on toy packaging before. Its a formality due to Californias very strict laws, in that EVERYTHING with even the tracest upon traces of a substance, even the possibility of it having that insignificant trace, has to be labeled with that warning. Its an insignificant warning and can be disregarded anytime its seen.

3) going back to 1, the factory its made in might have levels which reach that limit, but a bottled product should in no way be harmful in itself. And if you dont like the aroma, a window or door open should get rid of even that. Just dont go around drinking or sniffing it constantly and it will not harm you.

 

But in the end, its your choice. Im just telling you the warnings are due to either formalities or gross overreactions.

[lofty1966]

I think the breathing mask is a tad overkill. Probably the car exhaust emissions outside are just as harmful.

[Enterprisingwestern]

A couple of points;

I have had no problems with the Tamiya extra thin glue not working very well, my rake of 6 Cambrian Herrings have been assembled with it exclusively, maybe the Coopercraft plastic is a different make up and doesn't take too well to it?

Also, as others have said, unless you're drinking it, bathing in it and swimming in it, whilst the warnings on the bottle are technically correct, IMHO, it's perfectly safe to use indoors, if it wasn't, then a lot of railway modellers would have gone mad by now,,,,,,hmmmm, but then again!!!

 

Mike.

[alastairq]

Re-warnings?

 

Do any of you ex-military types recall Deet?

 

A while ago, we were offered several boxes of the stuff [over-ordered by Qms]....to help ourselves to....otherwise they were for the skip.

 

On reading the 'warnings' printed on the box sides, one gets the impression one should never, ever, apply it to one's skin....and one is even banned from going swimming after application.....in Canada....as it would kill all the fish!

 

Certainly it would cause rashes, eczema, and one's limbs would eventually drop off!

 

A nasty death would ensue if one ingested the stuff......from whichever end!

 

Then, we realised, the label applied to the entire box of tubes...as each tube had a slightly less excitable warning!

 

I can, however, understand why the boxes are labelled as such.....especially considering hte propensities of sundry military personnel.....but in the end, it isn't about offering warnings to potential users...it's all about reducing or eliminating the manufacturers, or suppliers, liability in Law, should someone be daft enough to actually use the stuff with a lack of sensibility.

 

I think of it  as the  'Winnebago effect'....??

 

A warning, however...as a child [including as a teenager] I used to model away into the wee small hours.....using solders and fluxes, Evostick and other solvent glues [Copydex smells really foul, does it not?]....and had no need whatsoever to seek out and exploit my local drug dealers....I used to really really enjoy modelling!!

 

I don't think there are any lasting effects on my adult life....others may well disagree...[although one side effect of my modelling youth is, I now don't give a tinker's damn what others think of me!]......I still have most  of all my external appendages..and recent ultrasound scans have not resulted in any medically-raised eyebrows......so...

 

Use of solvent glues and chemicals, really isn't quite the harmful practice our current society would have us all believe.....if used sensibly, in moderation,and with care. If one feels a headache coming on, open a window, or take a break. It may not be the glue.....equally as likely to be eye strain [especially if modelling N gauge?]....or bad lighting? [including, too bright a light?]....I think any modeler is more likely to be harmed, not by the glues or paints...but by the keenly sharp knife blades one has lying around?

 

Or, the hot soldering iron?

 

Or the traffic jam one sits in on Monday morning?

[Edwardian]

Of course, this might be an inappropriate assumption, as modelling, even railways, is a 'gender neutral' activity, but, assuming you are not pregnant, I think we can discount some of the more serious side-effects that have exercised the bureaucrats of the State of California.

 

Pending evidence to the contrary, such as an episode of House in which the denouement is the diagnosis of plastic solvent poisoning, I would encourage you to stop worrying. The fact that the rest of us are still alive and able to respond to your thread may also be of some comfort. 

 

I do like the layout mounted to the rear of your work bench.  If I may make one criticism, I think that Heki Christmas tree lets it down; I've never found them that realistic.  As the layout is obviously modern image, how does the Coopercraft cattle wagon fit in.

 

Anyway, good luck with it and I look forward to seeing your progress.

 

 

 

Use of solvent glues and chemicals, really isn't quite the harmful practice our current society would have us all believe.....if used sensibly, in moderation,and with care. If one feels a headache coming on, open a window, or take a break. It may not be the glue

 

Funny, that's more or less exactly what I told the Judge ....

[petethemole]

Examination of your newspaper suggests you're in/near Hamilton Ontario, so California legislation won't apply; also it's probably a bit cooler than Cal so the cement won't be so volatile. I find white spirit fumes more annoying, particularly as I sleep in the workshop/model in the bedroom (I'm not sure which).

[OnTheBranchline]

Re-warnings?

 

Do any of you ex-military types recall Deet?

 

A while ago, we were offered several boxes of the stuff [over-ordered by Qms]....to help ourselves to....otherwise they were for the skip.

 

On reading the 'warnings' printed on the box sides, one gets the impression one should never, ever, apply it to one's skin....and one is even banned from going swimming after application.....in Canada....as it would kill all the fish!

 

Certainly it would cause rashes, eczema, and one's limbs would eventually drop off!

 

A nasty death would ensue if one ingested the stuff......from whichever end!

 

Then, we realised, the label applied to the entire box of tubes...as each tube had a slightly less excitable warning!

 

I can, however, understand why the boxes are labelled as such.....especially considering hte propensities of sundry military personnel.....but in the end, it isn't about offering warnings to potential users...it's all about reducing or eliminating the manufacturers, or suppliers, liability in Law, should someone be daft enough to actually use the stuff with a lack of sensibility.

 

I think of it  as the  'Winnebago effect'....??

 

A warning, however...as a child [including as a teenager] I used to model away into the wee small hours.....using solders and fluxes, Evostick and other solvent glues [Copydex smells really foul, does it not?]....and had no need whatsoever to seek out and exploit my local drug dealers....I used to really really enjoy modelling!!

 

I don't think there are any lasting effects on my adult life....others may well disagree...[although one side effect of my modelling youth is, I now don't give a tinker's damn what others think of me!]......I still have most  of all my external appendages..and recent ultrasound scans have not resulted in any medically-raised eyebrows......so...

 

Use of solvent glues and chemicals, really isn't quite the harmful practice our current society would have us all believe.....if used sensibly, in moderation,and with care. If one feels a headache coming on, open a window, or take a break. It may not be the glue.....equally as likely to be eye strain [especially if modelling N gauge?]....or bad lighting? [including, too bright a light?]....I think any modeler is more likely to be harmed, not by the glues or paints...but by the keenly sharp knife blades one has lying around?

 

Or, the hot soldering iron?

 

Or the traffic jam one sits in on Monday morning?

 

No need to make fun, it is never a bad thing to be too cautious.

 

Also, my mother insisted that I use one when I first started to use liquid cement (and she is a medical professional).

[hayfield]

I do agree that its all about being sensible, do not leave the lid off for long periods of time and use sparingly in a well ventilated room.  I think there was one case where someone died owing to overuse in an un-ventilated space.

[Brassey]

 

My Mother was more concerned with me getting the cement in the eye and I think this is probably the greater risk with splashes with liquid cement so it is always best to be cautious.  I now, many years letter, always wear reading glasses for modelling for obvious reasons.

 

As previously stated, I now also tend to use a small breathing mask when using fluxes but sometimes forget; so far so good

[Compound2632]

I've used Slaters Mek-Pak for most of my plastic kit work and always in a well-ventilated space - window open if possible, or at least doors to neighbouring rooms. I use a small bottle with only a few millilitres in (decanted from a larger bottle outdoors) and put the lid on when not actually using. Butatone (for C&L trackwork) worries me more, as does cyano. Advancing presbyopia doesn't help - I have to get my nose nearer the job to see what I'm doing. When soldering, it's the flux rather than the solder that generates the vapour. Thoroughly washing the flux off the model with Fairy Liquid after each session also gets any traces of lead off the fingers. Probably best not to have a mug of tea alongside when doing any of this!

 

I hope we've all reassured OnTheBranchline - we've got to post #14 and he/she has only stuck one end to one side!

[AdamsRadial]

I got a soldering filter from Maplins a couple of years ago that is basically a sponge with a fan, and it draws soldering fumes away from the work. I haven't tried it with solvents, but there's no reason why it shouldn't also draw the solvent fumes away into the filter as well. I have always found the trouble with wearing a mask is condensation forming on my glasses, so although I evade the death by toxins I then start chancing injury through not seeing what I am doing clearly.

[scotcent]

I've used Slaters Mek-Pak for most of my plastic kit work and always in a well-ventilated space - window open if possible, or at least doors to neighbouring rooms. I use a small bottle with only a few millilitres in (decanted from a larger bottle outdoors) and put the lid on when not actually using. Butatone (for C&L trackwork) worries me more, as does cyano. Advancing presbyopia doesn't help - I have to get my nose nearer the job to see what I'm doing. When soldering, it's the flux rather than the solder that generates the vapour. Thoroughly washing the flux off the model with Fairy Liquid after each session also gets any traces of lead off the fingers. Probably best not to have a mug of tea alongside when doing any of this!

 

I hope we've all reassured OnTheBranchline - we've got to post #14 and he/she has only stuck one end to one side!

 

I  use  Butanone  exclusively  for  plastic  welding.  I  have  (very)  occasionally  left  the  lid  off  overnight,  which  resulted  in  me  coming  back  in  the  morning  to  an  empty  bottle.  The  biggest  danger  is  spilling  the  bottle,  which  will  damage  virtually  everything  on  the  workbench.  Now  (!)  I  keep  the  stuff  in  a  small  bottle  stuck  with  blu - tac  in  a  wide  flat  dish.  The  other  danger  I  find  is  the  danger  of  sticking  the  brush  into  the  glass  of  malt  instead  of  the  solvent......

 

Allan  F

[OnTheBranchline]

I've used Slaters Mek-Pak for most of my plastic kit work and always in a well-ventilated space - window open if possible, or at least doors to neighbouring rooms. I use a small bottle with only a few millilitres in (decanted from a larger bottle outdoors) and put the lid on when not actually using. Butatone (for C&L trackwork) worries me more, as does cyano. Advancing presbyopia doesn't help - I have to get my nose nearer the job to see what I'm doing. When soldering, it's the flux rather than the solder that generates the vapour. Thoroughly washing the flux off the model with Fairy Liquid after each session also gets any traces of lead off the fingers. Probably best not to have a mug of tea alongside when doing any of this!

 

I hope we've all reassured OnTheBranchline - we've got to post #14 and he/she has only stuck one end to one side!

 

I am very much a he.

[bertiedog]

A couple of points, perhaps already made, but worth an explanation.

 

The warnings on bottles of any solvent these days are there for legislative reasons as much as pure safety warnings. In all major countries, but especially the US, the product makers have to show conformance with the regulations set, and show due diligence in providing the consumer with warnings of any potential issues. If they left off the warning then the lawyers would have a field day in court.

 

This neither means that solvents are unsafe or safe for use, any product on the market is however deemed to be safe in normal use. This does not protect the consumer from unknown issues that might come up later.

 

The makers place the warnings under guidance from lawyers, and legislators, not researchers, or based only on information from the maker.

 

California has gained a notoriety for class legal actions against many products, and most get thrown quietly out of court, as a lot of the claims are based on very flimsy statistical correlations, not actual medical evidence. Claims keep lawyers in work, and they are therefore not the best indicator of the validity of the claim.

 

So most modelling solvents are safe to use, and we only use a small range in modelling, and all experience has shown them to be safe.

 

Exceptions are ingestion of solvent, and build up of fumes in industrial units, where the heavier than air evaporated solvent builds up from the floor upwards, and causes, not poisoning, but suffocation.

 

The amount of solvent that could be evaporated at home from a bottle or the drying plastic is far too low to worry about, a few parts in a million, which by the way, you may well still be able to smell.

 

Now the masks......they do not stop solvent from being breathed into the lungs, and before you say this is a sweeping statement, it is true for the types of masks available to the general public.

 

3M (Scotch) are a major maker of painters masks etc, and fume masks, and the types in the shops are designed only to stop particles of paint, not the evaporated thinners from getting through.

 

There are more specialist fume masks, where the basic filtration is doubled or trebled, with the addition of chemicals to force the evaporated solvent to stay in the outer filter. This type is rarely offered to the public as the filters are product related, not general purpose. they are also expensive and require regular replacement.

 

The only type of filter that really works is a respirator, where the air is drawn from a pollution free source and feed under positive pressure to the mask. These are really only used in industry and laboratory use.

 

None of these are needed for modelling solvents, the quantities are minute and the exposure very low.

 

After appearing to clear solvents as a cause for concern, there are exceptions, carbon tetrachloride, and forms of benzene have both been shown to cause skin cancer, but only when they were used widely to remove tar stains and sticking plaster residue from skin, by rubbing in large amounts. Even then it is only an increased risk, but has been taken seriously with bans on the products like clothes cleaners, tar removers, etc.

 

Ether and chloroform were once sold to the public, and are still used as industrial solvents and glues, but nobody would allow such products to get into the hands of the public.... or at least only to aero modellers who have doped fuel.

 

It is not recommended that any solvents are used direct on skin, so keep that in mind with modelling solvents.

 

So it boils down to just making sure the work is not in a sealed room, and few are sealed enough to cause issues, just open a window, and put a fan on to vent any solvent, problem gone........

 

The poster mentioned medical advice from a professional, and by all means take notice, but as professionals they should be able to show the peer reviewed scientific evidence to proof a problem exists.... after all many Doctors still smoke despite firm evidence. Plenty of evidence in tests shows that prolonged or large volume contact with solvent is dangerous, but we are not in that situation at all, so the advice is just to go ahaed and carefully use the products.

 

My background in manufacture did involve serious industrial solvent uses and I have spent hours reading hazard sheets, and discussing the problems with experts, some of the items we used were really noxious, making the plain solvents look very innocent indeed.

 

Stephen

[Kylestrome]

I do like the layout mounted to the rear of your work bench.  If I may make one criticism, I think that Heki Christmas tree lets it down; I've never found them that realistic.

Forgive me if I'm wrong, but I think the "layout" in the background is actually the view from the balcony. 

 

Heki Chrismas tree ... 

[Lady_Ava_Hay]

Only once have I had cause for concern with solvents. I recount it here as a salutory lesson in how things can go pear shaped very quickly when basic information is not forthcoming or is generally ignored, as it was in this case.

 

The year is 1977 as I recall and I am building a GRP trimaran in my front garden. I am at the stage of fitting out the interior. I have decided that I am going to line the foot tunnels that run under the cockpit seats ( a relatively common arrangement ) to cut down the pale light that is almost like an x ray of GRP. I have some dark brown material but of course I have to go in to the tunnel head first in a prone position. I am using a DIY can of Evostick contact adhesive which has proved to be really up to the job in other areas. It has a sweet sickly smell that is quite pungent as it wafts past your nose.

 

So I am lying down in an airtight GRP tunnel liberally coating material and GRP with Evostick when I become aware that I am getting a bit swimmy. I just managed to wiggle my way back into fresh air before passing out for a few seconds.

 

I don't think you can purchase this type of glue these days in the sort of volume that could duplicate the event. I did get the job finished in the end but insisted that I had someone with me as I did it.

 

I think the lesson learned is that solvents in largish quantities in confined spaces are likely to make you pass out rather than damage your health. Of course, in my innocence, I only found out later that these glues were actually being targetted by the sniffer brigade as a cheap and plentiful way to get high......or is that woozy?

[TheSignalEngineer]

.......................  The  other  danger  I  find  is  the  danger  of  sticking  the  brush  into  the  glass  of  malt  instead  of  the  solvent......

 

Allan  F

Probably almost as dangerous to the plastic as the solvent. 

[Deano747]

For years, alongside railway modelling, I have been building and flying large model planes, where cellulose dope and thinners were used in quite large quantities, and more recently light weight fibre glass and the associated chemicals, acetone being one of them! 

I think I'm still sane??? 

 

Regards, Deano.

[Joseph_Pestell]

I know it's becoming less common, but no-one has mentioned smoking. Inhaling Mek or similar solvents through a lit cigarette is very damaging.

 

And do be careful to close the bottle after use. I know someone who, while smoking, opened a cupboard in which a bottle of solvent had been left open. Result: quite a large explosion and a visit to hospital to treat serious burns to face.

[OnTheBranchline]

Update time.

 

I have tried doing it in my apartment with the door to the balcony open, and so far, I have not died yet.

 

I took some pictures for you guys to look at:

 

My least favourite part of kit-building, putting the wheel bearings in place!

 

Some more pictures:

 

I will detail the inside of the wagon with some cattle (if I can find them).

 

Considering this is my first Coopercraft kit, the building has been going okay for the most part.

 

If anyone spots anything wrong, please let me know.

 

Thank you to everyone who has commented in this thread so far.

[Kylestrome]

It's looking good so far, and you're still here to tell the tale. 

 

Judging by all the cuts in your table covering, I would recommend you to buy a plastic self-healing cutting mat.