Will Crossrail trains have yellow ends?

[QuoitsPlayer]

Having seen the prototype Crossrail unit in Rail, will they get yellow warning panels before going into production? I know it's possibly a daft question just I don't remember seeing UK prototypes without yellow panels before.

[black and decker boy]

Group standards no longer require yellow ends as the high intensity headlights now deemed sufficient.

 

Union pressure could change things but I'd be surprised if they retrospectively paint the ends if unions don't protest / blacklist them.

[david.hill64]

We have had this debate before in another thread.From RSSB:

 

'Companies are now able to make their own informed choice about their trains' front end colour, as long as the right risk assessment is done and all affected parties are involved.

Historically train fronts were required to have a yellow panel in order to make them more visible, a move which came in the 1950s when newer diesel and electric trains were found to be far quieter than steam.  However since that time, headlamp technology has improved.

Following changes to standards which came into effect last weekend, it's now up to the companies owning and operating trains to make sure they are sufficiently visible. For new and modified trains, this includes having the right arrangement of headlamps in line with legal requirements.

The new standard describes relevant modern requirements and best practice on audibility and visibility, including where yellow warning panels still need to be used on existing trains.  Indeed, the yellow front end is still a must for trains without the new arrangement of headlamps, and the spec for the yellow panel is still provided in the new standard where companies find this to be good practice'

I think it will be a brave company that decides that omitting a yellow end is good practice. Yellow was specified for very good reasons that are still valid even with modern headlamps. The requirement to include all parties in the risk assessment means that Network Rail and any infrastructure maintainer or other TOC or FOC running trains over the same routes will have to be consulted. I would be very surprised if all would consent knowing that the first time somebody is struck by a non-yellow fronted train the lawyers are going to have a beano.

[Titan]

 

However since that time, headlamp technology has improved.

 

Yellow was specified for very good reasons

 

Both of these statements are misleading - The technology of the time was more than capable of delivering the kind of output we have today - perhaps even surpassing what we have with the zenon lamps that were trialled. The Americans managed to fit their diesels of the time with powerful headlamps so it was perfectly possible for us to do the same.

 

Yellow paint was used for a very bad reason - painting the front end yellow was cheaper than providing proper headlamps like everyone else did. I wonder how many lives were lost through that decision.... 

[Zomboid]

If a proper risk assessment and consultation has taken place, there is no reason why the lawyers will get anywhere should an incident occur involving a non-yellow fronted train.

I imagine such incidents have already occurred at some point given that underground trains have red fronts and run on the main line network in various places.

 

Incidentally since the Americans have been cited, I remember reading that Burlington Northern experimented with front end paint jobs to try to improve visibility of their trains, and I think they settled on green and white wasp stripes.

[phil-b259]

Both of these statements are misleading - The technology of the time was more than capable of delivering the kind of output we have today - perhaps even surpassing what we have with the zenon lamps that were trialled. The Americans managed to fit their diesels of the time with powerful headlamps so it was perfectly possible for us to do the same.

 

Yellow paint was used for a very bad reason - painting the front end yellow was cheaper than providing proper headlamps like everyone else did. I wonder how many lives were lost through that decision.... 

 

The Americans, and indeed others in Europe had far more of an incentive to do fit decent headlights - namely their railways were not fenced in and thus a good headlight had long been considered necessary (even on steam locomotives) to warn the public to get out of the way. In the UK the only people within the boundary fence should be railway staff, who were not considered as important. British diesels thus continued the steam era practice of having only marker lights until railway workers pointed out that the quieter nature of diesel power increased the risks to their safety.

 

So the bottom line is yes, yellow paint might well have been a 'quick fix', and yes it is not a substitute for a decent headlight, however it is a fact that a yellow front end (or other highly noticeable colour like the red ends on LU stock) DOES enhance trackworker safety, and complements whatever lamp arrangement is employed, thus should not have been sacrificed on the alter of 'harmonisation of standards' / 'EU interoperability requirements' - particularly as paint / vynal makes no difference to the design of the stock (other than the livery on a small part of it).

[david.hill64]

Both of these statements are misleading - The technology of the time was more than capable of delivering the kind of output we have today - perhaps even surpassing what we have with the zenon lamps that were trialled. The Americans managed to fit their diesels of the time with powerful headlamps so it was perfectly possible for us to do the same.

 

Yellow paint was used for a very bad reason - painting the front end yellow was cheaper than providing proper headlamps like everyone else did. I wonder how many lives were lost through that decision.... 

I am not in a position to argue about the technology of headlamp provision, and merely quoted the RSSB statement - hence the inverted commas - but it is a fact that for people with (some/many? forms of) degrading eyesight, yellow is the last colour in the spectrum to remain visible. While not relevant to railway workers, it is certainly a consideration to old grannies walking their dog across a crossing.

 

When HEX services were being introduced the traction and rolling stock subject committee considered a request for a derogation to permit the 332's to operate with just headlamps. They had assembled a range of evidence showing visibility of the trains in various lighting conditions with and without yellow ends. The headlamps are certainly a good idea - I doubt if anybody disputes that, and possibly if they had been used earlier they might have saved lives - but yellow helped. Yellow costs all to apply, has a benefit and was therefore considered to be a reasonably practicable measure. The committee - whose workings on that day were being observed by the then Technical Director of HMRI - unanimously rejected the request. Said HMRI Director was in agreement. I cannot see that anything has changed.

 

You might even argue the possibility that track workers have become used to recognising yellow as a warning of an approaching train and may not so easily recognise a headlamp until a few have been culled.

 

It will be a very brave company that gives up this measure.

[Wheatley]

phil-b259, on 17 Aug 2016 - 08:55, said:

 In the UK the only people within the boundary fence should be railway staff, who were not considered as important  fundamentally stupid.

 

 

This was the 1960s remember, people were expected to do what they'd been trained to do, namely stay out of the way. Totally agree with the rest of your statement.

 

Also worth considering was that the headlamps on British trains at the time indicated the classification and therefore speed of the train and/or the route, vital at some busy locations to ensure it went the right way at the next junction or got looped in the right place. (Weaving goods trains in and out of passenger trains on a two track main line was an art form, it helped if you could see at a glance whether the train you were sending on was timed for 25mph or 50mph). US railroads did not have to worry about this, and they had a lot more un-gated public road crossings than the UK.  

 

Anyway, we've done all this before, in depth: http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/101715-the-end-of-the-yellow-panel/

[Zomboid]

It will be a very brave company that gives up this measure.

They're ultimately TfL trains, and whatever the benefits of yellow or not, TfL don't bother with yellow ends other than on Overground stock. Therefore I think they're probably brave enough to try it.

[The Stationmaster]

They're ultimately TfL trains, and whatever the benefits of yellow or not, TfL don't bother with yellow ends other than on Overground stock. Therefore I think they're probably brave enough to try it.

 

You might well be right.  As ever I simply quote what I can see with my own eyes on the GWML and lights, especially on HSTs and Class 16X units are visible well before almost anything else can be distinguished even in broad daylight and strong sunlight - e.g. Class 16X lights are clearly visible at over 1 mile.

 

But whatever we say or think the decision is down to TFL.

[Zomboid]

As I mentioned BN earlier, here's a copy & paste from the BN wiki page. Make of it what you will:

 

"By the 1980s the locomotives and rolling stock had an unfortunate habit of camouflaging into the scenery and causing accidents at railroad crossings. In late 1984 the BN commenced the High Visibility study which applied orange and black nose stripes and orange along the cab face on one locomotive followed by two new orders of locomotives: EMD SD40-2, EMD GP50, and EMD SD60 respectively. By 1987 the study did not show vast improvement of the locomotive's visibility and was dropped.

 

In 1989 the BN reactivated its High Visibility study, trying more white paint on the nose and cab face. The first unit, GATX Rebuild EMD GP40 #3079 emerged in April 1989 with a white cab face, end-sill stripes, and a large BN logo applied on the nose; dubbed White Face this scheme proved to be a success with only a minor change occurring in 1991 with the application of a two-inch wide separator stripe"

 

Here's what they decided was better than orange & black.

https://goo.gl/images/I0Y71z

[Trog]

Also remember that tube trains running on NR metals, only run at slow speeds, and that the bright red front is nearly as good as the yellow front on the faster mainline trains.

 

I just don't see what the argument is the front of the train has to be painted anyway, so doing it in yellow is practically zero cost. If it only saves one life a century it must be worth doing.

[stewartingram]

I've heard the story (a few times) that LU were to be forced to have yellow ends as they run on BR/NR tracks. They protested and did some trials to prove their case. Apparently the red ends (may even have been totally red trains, but it is only the ends that are relevant) were seen easier annd sooner than the yellow ends of the BR trains. So red ends stayed on LU trains.....

 

Stewart

[Derekstuart]

Not that aesthetics should override safety and operation, but inevitably someone will say "why don't they get rid of the yellow and make us like everywhere else".

 

Am I really the only one who thinks that yellow actually looks good as well as any safety advantages that it may or may not have?

Those mocked up photos of the German government/state railway in Britain (are they still called DB or whatever) showing Britain without yellow ends just looked wrong to me.

[Zomboid]

Not that aesthetics should override safety and operation, but inevitably someone will say "why don't they get rid of the yellow and make us like everywhere else".

 

Am I really the only one who thinks that yellow actually looks good as well as any safety advantages that it may or may not have?

 

Those mocked up photos of the German government/state railway in Britain (are they still called DB or whatever) showing Britain without yellow ends just looked wrong to me.

I don't disagree, but I suspect it's down to familiarity as much as anything else. Would be interesting to know how a German enthusiast would see it.

[Blobrick]

Not that aesthetics should override safety and operation, but inevitably someone will say "why don't they get rid of the yellow and make us like everywhere else".

 

Am I really the only one who thinks that yellow actually looks good as well as any safety advantages that it may or may not have?

 

Those mocked up photos of the German government/state railway in Britain (are they still called DB or whatever) showing Britain without yellow ends just looked wrong to me.

 

No you are not the only one!! I think the WCML classes AL1 to 6 looked much better in Electric Blue with small yellow ends. In fact although I come from the Banger Blue period myself, l still prefer the earlier BR liveries in Green with small warning panels!

 

Bob C 

[Glorious NSE]

As I mentioned BN earlier, here's a copy & paste from the BN wiki page. Make of it what you will:

 

"By the 1980s the locomotives and rolling stock had an unfortunate habit of camouflaging into the scenery and causing accidents at railroad crossings. In late 1984 the BN commenced the High Visibility study which applied orange and black nose stripes and orange along the cab face on one locomotive followed by two new orders of locomotives: EMD SD40-2, EMD GP50, and EMD SD60 respectively. By 1987 the study did not show vast improvement of the locomotive's visibility and was dropped.

 

In 1989 the BN reactivated its High Visibility study, trying more white paint on the nose and cab face. The first unit, GATX Rebuild EMD GP40 #3079 emerged in April 1989 with a white cab face, end-sill stripes, and a large BN logo applied on the nose; dubbed White Face this scheme proved to be a success with only a minor change occurring in 1991 with the application of a two-inch wide separator stripe"

 

Here's what they decided was better than orange & black.

https://goo.gl/images/I0Y71z

 

 

Just to expand on that - BN's livery had stripes on the nose* (white on the base green colour) from day 1 (1970) - I can well believe the "tiger stripe" (orange/black) variant didn't make a lot of difference - the later "whiteface" scheme does contrast with itself better...

 

But ultimately in a North American context, i'm not sure any of it makes a huge difference, people drive into the path of trains of all colours even today with better headlights than 1984 and an overall better spec of crossing.

 

Suppose it'd be interesting to know if in the 70s BN's rate of collisions per crossing (green with white stripes) was fundamentally any different to Norfork and Western's (plain black engines) or Union Pacific's (full yellow ends!)

 

(*Stripes generally only on the defined "front" end not the rear apart from a few exceptions...)

[The Stationmaster]

Having, I think, seen it all over the years I have little personal doubt about what has and hasn't been the most visible and - more importantly - visually striking.  And the key in my view is achieving contrast, single blocks of any colour don't draw as much attention as contrasting patches of colour hence the wasp stripes on the shunters are more striking than full yellow ends and even patches of yellow - kept clean - also usually provide the contrast you don't get with a  full yellow end.

 

As far as the latest headlights are concerned again i have no doubt at all - they can be seen at a much greater distance than any sort of yellow, be it a full end or a patch, and can be readily distinguished even before you can properly see the nose end let alone discern what colour it is painted.

[royaloak]

Dont forget that if one of these new trains (without yellow ends) has one of the three headlights fail then its classed as a failure so it will be restricted in speed (20 mph I think), but the same train with a yellow panel suffering the same headlight failure can carry on at line speed, so what costs aesthetics?

[phil-b259]

Having, I think, seen it all over the years I have little personal doubt about what has and hasn't been the most visible and - more importantly - visually striking.  And the key in my view is achieving contrast, single blocks of any colour don't draw as much attention as contrasting patches of colour hence the wasp stripes on the shunters are more striking than full yellow ends and even patches of yellow - kept clean - also usually provide the contrast you don't get with a  full yellow end.

 

All very true* - but seemingly ignored by the RSSB. They are in fact quite happy for the New TPE franchise to have their new stock with plain black ends!

 

(*particularly the comments on contrast. The gangwayed Electrostar family is a very good demonstration of this where the yellow is a very recognisable upside down T shape.)

 

As far as the latest headlights are concerned again i have no doubt at all - they can be seen at a much greater distance than any sort of yellow, be it a full end or a patch, and can be readily distinguished even before you can properly see the nose end let alone discern what colour it is painted.

 

We have clashed over this before - as I pointed out in the other thread dealing with this issue,  simply 'seeing' is not the whole story. Yes you could adopt the "immediately stop work and move to a place of safety mantra" so favoured by H&S bods as soon as you 'see' a train - but that approch is frankly insulting to a railway workers (who lets not forget undergo considerable training in setting up safe systems of work to suit the location and nature of the work being undertaken), not to mention exceedingly wasteful in staff productivity terms particularly on quadruple track lines.

 

Thus while it may not be the case on the 125MPh GWML, on the 90MPH BML, where the line is arrow straight for a good couple of miles in either direction, getting clear as soon as you 'see' a train is not automatically necessary. What is necessary is to be able to make an accurate assessment of the approch speeds and being able to determine which line the train is on (plus the knowledge of any crossovers in the vicinity etc.) Yellow panels / contrasting ends help with both and should have been retained.

[Trog]

I always found that the direction of flicker as a unit passed through the shadows of the OHL portals, helped me judge the speed and direction of a distant train. The movement of the block of yellow colour against the back ground is also easier to judge than that of a point of light. Don't get me wrong bright headlights are probably the greatest safety improvement of the last thirty years, but there are things that yellow paint does better and in an ideal world we should have both.

[The Stationmaster]

All very true* - but seemingly ignored by the RSSB. They are in fact quite happy for the New TPE franchise to have their new stock with plain black ends!

 

(*particularly the comments on contrast. The gangwayed Electrostar family is a very good demonstration of this where the yellow is a very recognisable upside down T shape.)

 

 

We have clashed over this before - as I pointed out in the other thread dealing with this issue,  simply 'seeing' is not the whole story. Yes you could adopt the "immediately stop work and move to a place of safety mantra" so favoured by H&S bods as soon as you 'see' a train - but that approch is frankly insulting to a railway workers (who lets not forget undergo considerable training in setting up safe systems of work to suit the location and nature of the work being undertaken), not to mention exceedingly wasteful in staff productivity terms particularly on quadruple track lines.

 

Thus while it may not be the case on the 125MPh GWML, on the 90MPH BML, where the line is arrow straight for a good couple of miles in either direction, getting clear as soon as you 'see' a train is not automatically necessary. What is necessary is to be able to make an accurate assessment of the approch speeds and being able to determine which line the train is on (plus the knowledge of any crossovers in the vicinity etc.) Yellow panels / contrasting ends help with both and should have been retained.

 

I did say 'see it' that is not the same as saying you should get clear as soon as you see it - and you know that.  If you see it when it's a mile away and it's an HST at full line speed you have 30 seconds warning, if it's a freight at 60mph you have one minute's warning.  If you don't have a clear 1 mile view, as is the case on most of the GWML, you get a shorter warning time and as you said yourself - people are trained and know what they're doing.

[asmay2002]

The big drawback with full yellow ends is that it does nothing for you in the dark - unlike a good headlight - and in the winter it is dark a lot.  It really was a nasty cheapskate solution by a penny-pinching BR which must have cost a lot of lives over the years.

[frobisher]

The big drawback with full yellow ends is that it does nothing for you in the dark - unlike a good headlight - and in the winter it is dark a lot.  It really was a nasty cheapskate solution by a penny-pinching BR which must have cost a lot of lives over the years.

That's a pretty bold statement with no evidence... I seem to recall (admittedly recent data) that British railways have the best worker safety record in Europe.

 

With the train front lighting of the period of introduction, I'd fancy that the light reflected from the yellow panel would cause greater visibility than a plain green one.

[newbryford]

The big drawback with full yellow ends is that it does nothing for you in the dark - unlike a good headlight - and in the winter it is dark a lot.  It really was a nasty cheapskate solution by a penny-pinching BR which must have cost a lot of lives over the years.

 

ISTR that track workers don't particularly go out at night onto live running lines anymore. Or if it is, it's with extra special precautions. I'm sure those that work trackside will give us the full details.

 

I like yellow.

Cheers,

Mick