GWR 'Toplight' on BR Branch line Duty

[DavidLong]

Whilst looking through my copy of Chris Leigh's GWR Country Stations:2 I came across a photograph with the following caption:

"The Tetbury branch bay with a toplight brake third forming a one-coach train on 7th May 1955"

The photograph looks towards the rear of the train with the locomotive, a pannier tank, in front of the coach facing towards the main line at Kemble. What intrigued me is that the coach has had its corridor connections removed and appears to be painted in unlined crimson. There is definitely no sign of lining.

As someone who's knowledge of anything to do with passenger carrying vehicles is woefully inadequate, could anyone with more knowledge tell me if such conversions were at all common as this may have useful implications for my current project.

I am unclear as to which diagram it may be despite consulting Russell but to help in identification it has six compartments and what appear to be three doors in the guard's area. Eight steps are in place on the end along with two windows. 

I would include a scan of the photograph but I am always unclear about copywrite issues in this situation.

 

David

 

Edit: Just a thought, could it be a D62 non-corridor brake third?

[chrisf]

Looking at the photograph, I would say that the coach never had corridor connections.  It isn't a D62 - they were built for the through services from the GWR to the City via the Metropolitan Line that ceased in 1939.  Those coaches were of necessity built to a more restricted loading gauge.  The two survivors are at Didcot.

 

It might be a D67 though.  They formed part of four coach sets for London and Birmingham suburban services which were disbanded and dispersed when new stock became available after the war.

 

Chris

[DavidLong]

Looking at the photograph, I would say that the coach never had corridor connections.  It isn't a D62 - they were built for the through services from the GWR to the City via the Metropolitan Line that ceased in 1939.  Those coaches were of necessity built to a more restricted loading gauge.  The two survivors are at Didcot.

 

It might be a D67 though.  They formed part of four coach sets for London and Birmingham suburban services which were disbanded and dispersed when new stock became available after the war.

 

Chris

 

Thanks, Chris. Do you have any more information about D67 as it doesn't seem to get a mention in Russell's Great Western Coaches  and I don't have Volume 1 of the Appendix?

 

David

[chrisf]

David

 

I do have Russel's Appendix Vol 1, which would have us believe that they were scrapped in 1966.  As they were built in 1922-23 I reckon that's wrong.  There were 16 of them, 3811-8 in Lot 1283 and 3819-26 in Lot 1304.  56 ft 11 1/4 in long, 8 ft 11 1/4 in wide, formed from new in 4 coach sets with composites to Diagram E103.  Possibly due to an error in transcription I do not have details of the allocations of the second batch but I would be surprised if it were neither London nor Birmingham.  Most of them were renumbered in 1953 to 3411-23.  This was because a batch of Mk 1 open thirds had just come out with the 38xx series numbers and it was desired to avoid a clash.  However, by this tine GW stock was having W suffixes added to its numbers so the clash would have been avoided in any case.  Welcome to puzzle corner.

 

The Railway Observer tells us that 3816 had been seen in the West Country in 1957 - so much for renumbering! - painted wine red.  This was a shade of red intermediate between crimson and maroon.  It was one of the experimental shades tried out in 1948 before the liveries that we know and live were chosen in 1949.  Swindon used up its stocks of this colour for the next couple of years.  When I get a minute, ha ha, I'll try and find out where in the West Country but I doubt it was Tetbury.

 

Chris

[DavidLong]

chrisf, on 25 Aug 2016 - 23:08, said:chrisf, on 25 Aug 2016 - 23:08, said:

David

 

I do have Russel's Appendix Vol 1, which would have us believe that they were scrapped in 1966.  As they were built in 1922-23 I reckon that's wrong.  There were 16 of them, 3811-8 in Lot 1283 and 3819-26 in Lot 1304.  56 ft 11 1/4 in long, 8 ft 11 1/4 in wide, formed from new in 4 coach sets with composites to Diagram E103.  Possibly due to an error in transcription I do not have details of the allocations of the second batch but I would be surprised if it were neither London nor Birmingham.  Most of them were renumbered in 1953 to 3411-23.  This was because a batch of Mk 1 open thirds had just come out with the 38xx series numbers and it was desired to avoid a clash.  However, by this tine GW stock was having W suffixes added to its numbers so the clash would have been avoided in any case.  Welcome to puzzle corner.

 

The Railway Observer tells us that 3816 had been seen in the West Country in 1957 - so much for renumbering! - painted wine red.  This was a shade of red intermediate between crimson and maroon.  It was one of the experimental shades tried out in 1948 before the liveries that we know and live were chosen in 1949.  Swindon used up its stocks of this colour for the next couple of years.  When I get a minute, ha ha, I'll try and find out where in the West Country but I doubt it was Tetbury.

 

Chris

 

Chris,

 

Many thanks for your help with my question. I have come across two more photographs in Great Western Branch Line Steam 1 by C L Williams and published by Bradford Barton. One shows it behind 7421 at Culkerton on the Tetbury 'mixed' in June 1954, although the only freight vehicle is a brake van! In the other photograph, also featuring 7421, taken on 24th April 1955 it is just possible to have a guess at the number as W3423W which would concur with your information regarding the later number series. Interestingly, there is also a photograph of the branch 'mixed' at Kemble taken by Henry Casserley on 27th April 1955 which shows 7418 with a later steel bodied non-vestibuled brake. Could this indicate that W3423W had been withdrawn in the intervening couple of days?

By the way, I assume that the D67 vehicles were on a 57' underframe compared to the 48' of D62 as evidenced by the longer brake section but with the same six compartments.

 

David

[chrisf]

David

 

I have GW Branch Line Steam 1 too and may have a browse while I am waiting for sleep to embrace me.

 

I think it is risky to infer the withdrawal of W3423W by the appearance of a more modern coach.  In those happy bygone days there were spare coaches all over the system and it is just as possible that a new coach could have worked on a rural line such as Tetbury straight out of the box as could a venerable toplight after 30+ years of hard work in London.  Ronald Toop's photo that started this intriguing topic was dated 7th May 1955, assuming that the writer of the caption got it right.  As there were only 16 D67s what are the chances of two of them gravitating to Tetbury?  The only scrapping date I have found for these coaches is 1958 but I have not trawled through the GW rolling stock registers which I believe are held at Kew.  If anyone does know it will be John Lewis, who has researched extensively into the minutiae of GW coaches.

 

Yes, the D67s and E103s were on a nominal 57 ft underframe.  The D62s and the equivalent thirds [C37] and composites [E101] built for the Main Line and City workings were, as you say, 48 ft long and with reduced height and width due to the need to work through the Met tunnels between Paddington and Liverpool Street.  Despite the cessation of the through services in 1939 the stock remained in use in the London area until the mid 50s on dedicated workings, only being dispersed towards the end of their working lives.  The two at Didcot were finally used on the workmen's service between Cymmer Corrwg and Glyncorrwg and on 2nd July 1960 saw service on one of Mr Camwell's SLS railtours!

 

Chris

[chrisf]

I've looked up the travels of 3816, having had a minute.  It arrived in the West Country in August 1957 in a passenger train and spent periods at rest at Calstock - then still on the Southern - and Totnes.  What happened to it after that may well not have been recorded.  This was at a time when many elderly coaches were being replaced by more modern stock, much of the latter itself to be replaced by dmus in the ensuing few years.

 

I've also had a quick look at GW Branch Line Steam 1.  The coach behind 7418 in the mixed train at Kemble is a D132, built between 1950 and 1954.  The writer of one of the captions is a bit cavalier on his use of "auto" as 5816 was not auto fitted and is pictured with a non-auto coach.  The presence of an auto trailer in the mixed photographed by Casserley makes me wonder whether the Tetbury branch was normally worked by auto trains.  For much of the 1950s trailers were in short supply and had to be replaced by non auto stock.  For example, at one stage there were only enough trailers to cover one of the three auto diagrams on the Exe Valley line. At other times there was a shortage of auto fitted engines but never at the same time as a trailer shortage!

 

The use of an ordinary coach in a p-way train, as captured by Hugh Ballantyne in 1955, must be unusual too.

 

Chris 

[DavidLong]

I've looked up the travels of 3816, having had a minute.  It arrived in the West Country in August 1957 in a passenger train and spent periods at rest at Calstock - then still on the Southern - and Totnes.  What happened to it after that may well not have been recorded.  This was at a time when many elderly coaches were being replaced by more modern stock, much of the latter itself to be replaced by dmus in the ensuing few years.

 

I've also had a quick look at GW Branch Line Steam 1.  The coach behind 7418 in the mixed train at Kemble is a D132, built between 1950 and 1954.  The writer of one of the captions is a bit cavalier on his use of "auto" as 5816 was not auto fitted and is pictured with a non-auto coach.  The presence of an auto trailer in the mixed photographed by Casserley makes me wonder whether the Tetbury branch was normally worked by auto trains.  For much of the 1950s trailers were in short supply and had to be replaced by non auto stock.  For example, at one stage there were only enough trailers to cover one of the three auto diagrams on the Exe Valley line. At other times there was a shortage of auto fitted engines but never at the same time as a trailer shortage!

 

The use of an ordinary coach in a p-way train, as captured by Hugh Ballantyne in 1955, must be unusual too.

 

Chris 

 

Many thanks again, Chris, for your informative comments. Agreed about the 'auto' comment! Interesting information about the shortage of auto trailers and, similarly locos. The WR ultimately solved that little conundrum by simply closing many of the lines that required them!

By the way, I found this on the ever-informative Warwickshire Railways site:

http://www.warwickshirerailways.com/gwr/gwrbsh1751.htm

And a slightly more unconventional shot from BR days:

http://www.warwickshirerailways.com/gwr/gwrbsh2538.htm

 

Regards

 

David

[chrisf]

David

 

Thanks for the links to Warwickshire Railways - as you say, ever informative.  I remain of the view that the condemnation date of Feb 66 is very, very suspect and would say that 1956 is nearer the mark!

[The Stationmaster]

David

 

Thanks for the links to Warwickshire Railways - as you say, ever informative.  I remain of the view that the condemnation date of Feb 66 is very, very suspect and would say that 1956 is nearer the mark!

 

The only thing which might have saved it was going into departmental use which might make some sense of the 1966 date?

[dibber25]

I've looked up the travels of 3816, having had a minute.  It arrived in the West Country in August 1957 in a passenger train and spent periods at rest at Calstock - then still on the Southern - and Totnes.  What happened to it after that may well not have been recorded.  This was at a time when many elderly coaches were being replaced by more modern stock, much of the latter itself to be replaced by dmus in the ensuing few years.

 

I've also had a quick look at GW Branch Line Steam 1.  The coach behind 7418 in the mixed train at Kemble is a D132, built between 1950 and 1954.  The writer of one of the captions is a bit cavalier on his use of "auto" as 5816 was not auto fitted and is pictured with a non-auto coach.  The presence of an auto trailer in the mixed photographed by Casserley makes me wonder whether the Tetbury branch was normally worked by auto trains.  For much of the 1950s trailers were in short supply and had to be replaced by non auto stock.  For example, at one stage there were only enough trailers to cover one of the three auto diagrams on the Exe Valley line. At other times there was a shortage of auto fitted engines but never at the same time as a trailer shortage!

 

The use of an ordinary coach in a p-way train, as captured by Hugh Ballantyne in 1955, must be unusual too.

 

Chris 

No, the Tetbury branch wasn't normally an autotrain operation, it was one coach and a '58XX'. The only time I've seen it with an autotrain was the GRS special the day after it closed in 1964, but I have seen pictures of autocoaches in use on the branch as conventional coaches and run round at each end. (CJL)

[chrisf]

The only thing which might have saved it was going into departmental use which might make some sense of the 1966 date?

 

Except for three things.  First, according to John Lewis in his books on auto trailers, condemnation dates were not recorded after 1961.  Second, if I read those books correctly, vehicles were selected for departmental use after they had been condemned.  Third, Russell's accuracy was not always complete!

 

Chris