Interesting Fishplate at Temple Meads in 1961 - is this GWR or BR(W)?

[Rail-Online]

Hi,

 

I have never seen a pic of one of these before. Presumably it is insulated and BR(W) -or was it GWR,  made a complicated casting before plastics/rubber was used.

 

Any details would be interesting

 

Cheers Tony

 

 

[TheSignalEngineer]

Used to be quite common, we called them 'Elephant's Ears'. They were surprisingly late survivors especially on sidings and dead end platforms. Some lasted until the 1990s at Manchester Piccadilly, and some may still lurk in sidings even now.

Edited October 5, 2016 by TheSignalEngineer

[The Stationmaster]

They were not an uncommon sight in some of the older track-circuited areas on the Western.  

 

I presume they were tried as an alternative to Permali wooden fishplates but were not universally adopted for some reason (price possibly or maybe lack of ease of adjustment or maybe the Permali fishplates were found to last better than expected or they improved?).  Incidentally the nearer one does appear to be a Permali wooden fishplate (they are laminated timber, not a single piece).

Edited October 5, 2016 by The Stationmaster

[Trog]

_{There were still some near the buffers of one of the bay platforms at Crewe about a year ago when I was last up there. There are also a pair in the head shunt for the sidings off the City Goods lines at Willesden, just north of where Willesden PSB used to be.}

[Grovenor]

Permali wooden fishplate (they are laminated timber, not a single piece).

That could be a bit misleading, the fishplate as delivered/installed is a single piece. It is, however made from layers of wood impregnated with some form of resin glue and then compressed together to achieve a high density and strength, essentially a super strength plywood.

Regards

[TheSignalEngineer]

I knew I had a reference to these at home so now I can confirm that the proper name is a Sykes Flange Joint. 

 

Early insulated joints were made from a solid block of wood such as Hornbeam but these were not popular in the UK. The common method in the 1920s was to plane 5/32" off the top and bottom of a standard fishplate and use a 3/16" pressed fibre insulator between the fishplate and the rail. The fishbolts were insulated from the rail by using fibre collets in the rail holes. These fibre parts were prone to wearing and the joint becoming loose, with the insulation eventually breaking down. 

 

The theory of the Sykes Flange was that the fishplate had metal to metal contact with the rail, thus being easier to keep tight. The insulations consisted of a fibre plate matching the fishplates between the rail ends with fibre collets and washers to insulate the bolts from the fishlpate sections.

 

Edited October 5, 2016 by TheSignalEngineer

[PhilJ W]

When I lived in Romford 40 years ago my back garden backed on to the railway embankment. I often found lumps of ballast and the odd fishplate one or two of which were wooden, made from solid teak.

[TheSignalEngineer]

That could be a bit misleading, the fishplate as delivered/installed is a single piece. It is, however made from layers of wood impregnated with some form of resin glue and then compressed together to achieve a high density and strength, essentially a super strength plywood.

Regards

Permali web page, http://www.permalideho.co.uk/permali.asp

 

I'm not sure when Permali was first used for fishplates in the UK, probably early 1950s, but it had been used by the SR for other purposes since 1937.

[Rail-Online]

I knew I had a reference to these at home so now I can confirm that the proper name is a Sykes Flange Joint. 

 

Early insulated joints were made from a solid block of wood such as Hornbeam but these were not popular in the UK. The common method in the 1920s was to plane 5/32" off the top and bottom of a standard fishplate and use a 3/16" pressed fibre insulator between the fishplate and the rail. The fishbolts were insulated from the rail by using fibre collets in the rail holes. These fibre parts were prone to wearing and the joint becoming loose, with the insulation eventually breaking down. 

 

The theory of the Sykes Flange was that the fishplate had metal to metal contact with the rail, thus being easier to keep tight. The insulations consisted of a fibre plate matching the fishplates between the rail ends with fibre collets and washers to insulate the bolts from the fishlpate sections.

 

Sykes Flange Joint_0001.jpgSykes Flange Joint_0002.jpg

That is interesting as the illustration shows the fishplate attached to the outside of the rail whereas the one at BTM has it on the inside I guess so it is easier to adjust.  Try doing that with Oxford Rail 'cheesecutter' OO gauge flanges!

 

Tony

[TheSignalEngineer]

That is interesting as the illustration shows the fishplate attached to the outside of the rail whereas the one at BTM has it on the inside I guess so it is easier to adjust.  Try doing that with Oxford Rail 'cheesecutter' OO gauge flanges!

 

Tony

The Sykes Flange fishplate is the same profile inside and outside the rail

[LNERGE]

Ex track circuit 10770, Cambridge Goods Yard LMS

 

 

 

Edited October 7, 2016 by LNERGE

[The Stationmaster]

That could be a bit misleading, the fishplate as delivered/installed is a single piece. It is, however made from layers of wood impregnated with some form of resin glue and then compressed together to achieve a high density and strength, essentially a super strength plywood.

Regards

 

Laminated timber is a single piece surely!

Permali web page, http://www.permalideho.co.uk/permali.asp

 

I'm not sure when Permali was first used for fishplates in the UK, probably early 1950s, but it had been used by the SR for other purposes since 1937.

 

I wonder if they're still used in any new installations in view of the use of modern insulation materials with metal fishplates and glued joints?  

 

I bought several sets of Permali fishplates for a preservation site back in the latter half of the 1980s and they were still able to supply a wide range, including 'lifts' for differing rail sections/weights, from stock at that time.  The last time I looked - several months ago - there were still a couple of pairs of them in the branch bay at out local junction but they have long disappeared from the Main and Relief Lines in our part of the world.

[Trog]

There are a few combinations of rail that the nylon shelled steel IBJ plates are not available in. So unless you alter the rails at the IBJ to something more modern and fit junction plates on the next joint back in each direction you would still need to use Permali plates for them. The Permali plates being available in more exotic combinations than the more normal plates. One I remember was GWR 97 1/2 lb BH to LMS 113 flatbottom, the lucky supervisor to have that little darling to maintain was changing the plates weekly. Someone must have really hated one of the previous maintenance supervisors to set that up for them to look after.

 

Mind you I once had a job relaying up to a bullhead double junction in the days of Railtrack, it was a right pigs ear. The plain line relaying mileage included the junction, I asked to have the mileage altered but was told to do what is on the specification or your company will be penalised. It was so tempting to take them at their word and plain line the junction, but as I needed the job to pay the mortgage I just had to grit my teeth. So I set the job up to finish at the junction, on the crossing joint which was an IBJ. The relaying was in 113A CWR on concrete sleepers, with an adjustment switch to protect the junction, so I relayed thirty feet against the junction in new 95lb RBS  bull head, so that the IBJ became a stepped set of bull head plates, which is reasonably standard, and the junction between the bullhead and flat bottom could be welded. A few weeks later I had the Railtrack engineering idiot who had refused to alter the job length on the phone demanding an explanation as to why I had not carried on relaying in concrete flat bottom right up to the crossing. I just could not get it through his thick head that an un-necessary new flat bottom to worn bull head rail junction and step IBJ was a bad idea, and that when it failed as it surely would. It would be at 3am on a rainy February morning and finding just the right plate to fix it quickly would be a nightmare. 

[TheSignalEngineer]

 

I wonder if they're still used in any new installations in view of the use of modern insulation materials with metal fishplates and glued joints?  

 

I bought several sets of Permali fishplates for a preservation site back in the latter half of the 1980s and they were still able to supply a wide range, including 'lifts' for differing rail sections/weights, from stock at that time.  The last time I looked - several months ago - there were still a couple of pairs of them in the branch bay at out local junction but they have long disappeared from the Main and Relief Lines in our part of the world.

The Permali website still lists insulated joints ans shoe beams under rail applications. I don't know what the order quantities would be but they machine special shapes to the customer's requirements. I think Unipart only supply steel fishplates with insulated liners for other than glued joints. 

[jim.snowdon]

The standard type of insulated joint used on Network Rail these days for in-situ application (as against shop glued joints, which are preferred) is the Benkler, or Tenconi type, in which the structural element of the fishplate is fully encapsulated, ie -

 

 

(borrowed from the Tenconi website)

 

Jim

Edited October 14, 2016 by jim.snowdon

[ikcdab]

I am reviewing some volunteer memories for the West Somerset Railway. I have come across a reference to "wooden fishplates" being used at track circuits. Obviously for insultaion. The story is about how these had been bashed about by the Bagnalls in the 1980s and had to be replaced.

All the pictures in this thread have gone.

I have never come across the idea of wooden fishplates before so i was surprised to read this.

So this is the WSR in the 1980s maintaining ex-GW and BR track...so what sort of fishplates would these have been?

Thanks

Ian

[The Stationmaster]

1 hour ago, ikcdab said:

I am reviewing some volunteer memories for the West Somerset Railway. I have come across a reference to "wooden fishplates" being used at track circuits. Obviously for insultaion. The story is about how these had been bashed about by the Bagnalls in the 1980s and had to be replaced.

All the pictures in this thread have gone.

I have never come across the idea of wooden fishplates before so i was surprised to read this.

So this is the WSR in the 1980s maintaining ex-GW and BR track...so what sort of fishplates would these have been?

Thanks

Ian

The Permali sets I bought were in the 1980s so still readily available then although I don;'t know if the WSR would have bought them. Your best bet would be to conatct asomeone in the WSR S&T Dept who hopefully might have some recoirs of what was used where and when.

 

The WSR Bagm nalls were definitely 'tail waggers' due to their short wheelbase but that was to some extent restrained by the load of the train and Pertmali fishplates were used on BR main line routes under far heavier and faster trains well into the 1960s, and probably teh '70s in soem places.  There were in use in the branch bay at our local junction station until only a few years back but they were pretty old by then.

[PhilJ W]

10 hours ago, ikcdab said:

I am reviewing some volunteer memories for the West Somerset Railway. I have come across a reference to "wooden fishplates" being used at track circuits. Obviously for insultaion. The story is about how these had been bashed about by the Bagnalls in the 1980s and had to be replaced.

All the pictures in this thread have gone.

I have never come across the idea of wooden fishplates before so i was surprised to read this.

So this is the WSR in the 1980s maintaining ex-GW and BR track...so what sort of fishplates would these have been?

Thanks

Ian

When I lived in Romford my garden backed on to the Liverpool Street line which was on an embankment. At the bottom of the garden I frequently found old track fittings including wooden fishplates, in fact they were more common than metal ones.

[ikcdab]

12 hours ago, The Stationmaster said:

The Permali sets I bought were in the 1980s so still readily available then although I don;'t know if the WSR would have bought them. Your best bet would be to conatct asomeone in the WSR S&T Dept who hopefully might have some recoirs of what was used where and when.

 

The WSR Bagm nalls were definitely 'tail waggers' due to their short wheelbase but that was to some extent restrained by the load of the train and Pertmali fishplates were used on BR main line routes under far heavier and faster trains well into the 1960s, and probably teh '70s in soem places.  There were in use in the branch bay at our local junction station until only a few years back but they were pretty old by then.

Thanks.  I think you have answered my question. It was in fact the then WSR PW chief i was talking to!