When is a mixed train a mixed train?

[brianusa]

Many pictures in steam days, especially on branch lines show wagons either tucked in behind the loco or behind the coach/s in front of the brake van.   Did these have to be brake fitted?  Then there are the main line passenger trains with perhaps a couple behind the engine or on the rear presumably braked.  How many wagons were acceptable under these conditions before there were too many and sent on by a goods train.

 

Brian

[The Pilotman]

Have you read this, Brian?

 

http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/592-mixed-trains-and-tail-traffic

[knitpick]

Had a quick look at the old article referenced in the previous post.

 

What it doesn't mention is that the Uk railways had things known as NPCCS (Non Passenger Carrying Coaching Stock).  Typically these were vans and could be used in freight trains.  But for rule book purposes they were treated as Passenger Coaches and thus could be part of a passenger train.  They would have brakes and often could have through steam heating pipes.  As such, they could appear anywhere in the passenger train but rarely between passenger carrying coaches.  So either between loco and coaches or behind coaches.

[Dunsignalling]

Stationmaster's account is pretty comprehensive but there are a few simple rules-of-thumb based on what such workings looked like.

 

1. If any unfitted wagons are included, it's definitely a mixed train and the coaches must be coupled ahead of them to permit connection of the train brakes. A goods brake must be provided at the rear and the guard will ride in that. There was a maximum number of wagons that could be conveyed in mixed trains but I don't recall the exact figure. There were also lower limits applied to particular lines which were laid down the appropriate Sectional Appendix.

 

2. If there are only fitted wagons, and no goods brake van is provided, it's a passenger train permitted (in the WTT) to convey what is often referred to as "tail traffic". This can be a slightly misleading term because the maximum number of fitted wagons permitted behind the final passenger vehicle was usually three. Hence the pictures you sometimes see with vans and/or milk tanks marshalled fore-and-aft of the passenger accommodation. 

 

3. The definition of trains as mixed or conveying fitted tail traffic was laid down in the WTT  with the timings calculated to allow for any necessary shunting at intermediate stations. If little or none was required on a particular day, the train had to wait until the publicly advertised departure time. Such workings provided very leisurely journeys for passengers! 

 

4. In practice, the traffic on offer seldom challenged any limits but, if it did, the answer was to send the passenger and goods portions as separate trains or split the wagons, sending non-urgent ones (usually empties) by the next working. On mixed workings that didn't travel very far, this could often be fitted in between booked passenger trains (sometimes with notional timings already worked out). Where it couldn't, and/or longer distances were involved, advance planning would be necessary, possibly requiring the provision of an extra engine to take over the goods working with the booked "mixed" running as a passenger train..  

 

Hope this helps.  

 

John

[The Johnster]

Probably covered elsewhere, but in addition... tail traffic would have to be of passenger rated stock such as GUV, CCT, etc, or 'XP' freight stock.  'XP" branding is carried on the wagon or van, and means that it is vacuum brake fitted, has pneumatic buffers, and screw couplings.  If any other freight vehicles are conveyed, even if they are vacuum fitted, a goods brake van in which a guard is riding must be provided at the rear of the train, which of course makes it a mixed train and not a passenger train carrying tail traffic.  No mineral wagons, irrespective of brakes, couplings. or buffer types fitted, were XP rated (except for a short and unsuccessful experimental period)  and their presence would indicate a mixed train, not tail traffic.  The train, with tail traffic or mixed, would of course be subject to the speed restriction imposed by the slowest permitted speed of the wagons, so 45mph for 10' wheelbase stock such as vanfits, conflats, or similar.  Booked mixed train timings would reflect this, and the need for slower braking to keep the couplings taut using the brake in the rear freight brake van.

 

One might conceivably have a mixed train consisting of entirely XP rated stock besides the passenger vehicles but carrying a brake van at the rear in which a guard is riding, if it was to pick up unfitted or other non XP freight stock en route, or conversely arriving at it's destination in such a formation having dropped off any such non XP or unftted stock en route.

 

From a modelling perspective, mixed trains are probably not prototypical unless you know for a certainty that they ran on the line you are modelling (or on similar lines if the layout is freelance).  They were relatively rare, and mostly a feature of remote branches with light traffic and long sections such as the Mallaig extension, where their ability to save paths was valuable, but they added to journey times and discomfort for passengers  The more usual method of working was to keep passenger and freight traffic separate so as to keep reasonable timings on the passenger services and the freight trains out of their way.  Tail traffic was much more common, and a more viable subject for modelling!

[Gwiwer]

XP incidentally stands for "Express Passenger" and meant that the vehicle concerned was passed for travel at up to 75mph, later lowered to 60mph.  That more than sufficed for almost all instances of vans and wagons being attached to the rear of passenger coaches.  Parcel vans attached as tail traffic to a passenger working (including DMU workings) were often referred to as "swingers" because they swung along behind.

 

The definition of NPCCS (Non passenger-carrying coaching stock) was, to the outsider, arbitrary but followed some logic.  Parcel vans were obviously of coaching-stock style in over all shape and function though in later BR years some 4-wheel insulated fish vans (freight stock) were converted for parcels use, painted rail blue and were renumbered and reclassified into the NPCCS series.  Cattle wagons were freight; horse boxes were NPCCS.  Cattle were classified as livestock and conditions for their rail transport were not as demanding as for horses which were considered valuable bloodstock and were typically transported by rail to and from race meetings.  Pigeon vans were NPCCS because they conveyed racing birds rather than livestock.  Pigeons when conveyed by parcels or passenger train in their baskets and stowed in the brake / parcel van merely earned a few more pennies in the railway coffers. 

 

Milk was time-critical and whilst considered as freight it warranted special treatment and required a guard's van attached at the rear (often a pre-grouping parcel van in practice) in which a guard would be required to travel.  Other fully fitted freights did not require a brake van but usually had one anyway through tradition, as a safety precaution and no doubt to satisfy the demands of the relevant union.  Milk tanks attached to passenger trains, being fully-fitted, could be overseen by the passenger guard.  Milk tanks ran mixed with other wagons in some areas where freight was very light and separate trains for each traffic could not be justified.  In such cases (Torrington - Meeth was one) the milk tanks would usually be coupled next to the locomotive and any unfitted freight wagons at the rear and ahead of a brake van.

 

A "mixed" train would often have freight wagons of some sort attached.  Adding NPCCS vehicles alone would not of itself cause the train to be considered "mixed".   The branch mixed train might convey wagons and vans to and from the main-line junction and to / from intermediate points as required.  While not as slow as the pick-up goods which might shunt every yard and siding along the way the schedule would allow for some coupling / uncoupling as required and with the freight items usually destined for a yard at the junction in order to be formed into longer and dedicated trains for onwards movement.  

[Dunsignalling]

XP incidentally stands for "Express Passenger" and meant that the vehicle concerned was passed for travel at up to 75mph, later lowered to 60mph.  That more than sufficed for almost all instances of vans and wagons being attached to the rear of passenger coaches.  Parcel vans attached as tail traffic to a passenger working (including DMU workings) were often referred to as "swingers" because they swung along behind.

 

The definition of NPCCS (Non passenger-carrying coaching stock) was, to the outsider, arbitrary but followed some logic.  Parcel vans were obviously of coaching-stock style in over all shape and function though in later BR years some 4-wheel insulated fish vans (freight stock) were converted for parcels use, painted rail blue and were renumbered and reclassified into the NPCCS series.  Cattle wagons were freight; horse boxes were NPCCS.  Cattle were classified as livestock and conditions for their rail transport were not as demanding as for horses which were considered valuable bloodstock and were typically transported by rail to and from race meetings.  Pigeon vans were NPCCS because they conveyed racing birds rather than livestock.  Pigeons when conveyed by parcels or passenger train in their baskets and stowed in the brake / parcel van merely earned a few more pennies in the railway coffers. 

 

Milk was time-critical and whilst considered as freight it warranted special treatment and required a guard's van attached at the rear (often a pre-grouping parcel van in practice) in which a guard would be required to travel.  Other fully fitted freights did not require a brake van but usually had one anyway through tradition, as a safety precaution and no doubt to satisfy the demands of the relevant union.  Milk tanks attached to passenger trains, being fully-fitted, could be overseen by the passenger guard.  Milk tanks ran mixed with other wagons in some areas where freight was very light and separate trains for each traffic could not be justified.  In such cases (Torrington - Meeth was one) the milk tanks would usually be coupled next to the locomotive and any unfitted freight wagons at the rear and ahead of a brake van.

 

A "mixed" train would often have freight wagons of some sort attached.  Adding NPCCS vehicles alone would not of itself cause the train to be considered "mixed".   The branch mixed train might convey wagons and vans to and from the main-line junction and to / from intermediate points as required.  While not as slow as the pick-up goods which might shunt every yard and siding along the way the schedule would allow for some coupling / uncoupling as required and with the freight items usually destined for a yard at the junction in order to be formed into longer and dedicated trains for onwards movement.  

The requirement for fully fitted goods trains to include a brake van was not abolished until the practice of the guard riding in the rear cab of the (diesel) loco was agreed, IIRC c1972.

 

However, from 1964, the brake van could be placed anywhere in a fully fitted formation, rather than at the rear. Where a fitted freight was to detach wagons en-route, the brake was sometimes placed, for convenience, at the point of division.

 

I have also seen a photo of a train coming up from Weymouth, formed entirely of NPCCS vehicles (some with Guard's compartments) but with a goods brake in the middle - presumably a winter working when there would be a requirement for the guard to have a stove.

 

 

John

[Gwiwer]

 

 

The requirement for fully fitted goods trains to include a brake van was not abolished until the practice of the guard riding in the rear cab of the (diesel) loco was agreed, IIRC c1972.

 

Thanks for the clarification.  This, incidentally, also explains the need for the earliest Freightliner container trains to run with a guard's van which was always a parcel van, sometimes a BR standard BG and sometimes an earlier design.

[The Stationmaster]

XP incidentally stands for "Express Passenger" and meant that the vehicle concerned was passed for travel at up to 75mph, later lowered to 60mph.  That more than sufficed for almost all instances of vans and wagons being attached to the rear of passenger coaches.  Parcel vans attached as tail traffic to a passenger working (including DMU workings) were often referred to as "swingers" because they swung along behind.

 

The definition of NPCCS (Non passenger-carrying coaching stock) was, to the outsider, arbitrary but followed some logic.  Parcel vans were obviously of coaching-stock style in over all shape and function though in later BR years some 4-wheel insulated fish vans (freight stock) were converted for parcels use, painted rail blue and were renumbered and reclassified into the NPCCS series.  Cattle wagons were freight; horse boxes were NPCCS.  Cattle were classified as livestock and conditions for their rail transport were not as demanding as for horses which were considered valuable bloodstock and were typically transported by rail to and from race meetings.  Pigeon vans were NPCCS because they conveyed racing birds rather than livestock.  Pigeons when conveyed by parcels or passenger train in their baskets and stowed in the brake / parcel van merely earned a few more pennies in the railway coffers. 

 

Milk was time-critical and whilst considered as freight it warranted special treatment and required a guard's van attached at the rear (often a pre-grouping parcel van in practice) in which a guard would be required to travel.  Other fully fitted freights did not require a brake van but usually had one anyway through tradition, as a safety precaution and no doubt to satisfy the demands of the relevant union.  Milk tanks attached to passenger trains, being fully-fitted, could be overseen by the passenger guard.  Milk tanks ran mixed with other wagons in some areas where freight was very light and separate trains for each traffic could not be justified.  In such cases (Torrington - Meeth was one) the milk tanks would usually be coupled next to the locomotive and any unfitted freight wagons at the rear and ahead of a brake van.

 

A "mixed" train would often have freight wagons of some sort attached.  Adding NPCCS vehicles alone would not of itself cause the train to be considered "mixed".   The branch mixed train might convey wagons and vans to and from the main-line junction and to / from intermediate points as required.  While not as slow as the pick-up goods which might shunt every yard and siding along the way the schedule would allow for some coupling / uncoupling as required and with the freight items usually destined for a yard at the junction in order to be formed into longer and dedicated trains for onwards movement.  

 

Several things in there Rick.  Firstly various NPCCS vehicles became subject to various different - lower speed restrictions during the 1960s and later with some being lower than 60mph.

 

Milk was actually passenger rated traffic, not freight, although sometimes for convenience some local tripping was done using freight trains; dedicated milk trains were very definitely not freight trains and a brakevan did not necessarily have to be marshalled rear on a Milk train but simply in whatever position was required by the Brake Regulations (which limited the number of wheels allowed behind a brakevan).

 

An important point to repeat about Mixed Trains (not the capitalisation) was that they could only be run where authorised by the Working Timetable (WTT) or supplement to it or notice amending it and the Dept of Transport always took an interest in just how many happened to be authorised.  Some times, purely for convenience, all trains on a branch line might be authorised to run as Mixed Trains (e.g the Wallingford branch at one time) while elsewhere only specific trains would be authorised (e.g the Marlow branch).

[Ian Smeeton]

Mixed, or not?

 

http://www.britainfromabove.org.uk/image/saw032171

 

Regards

 

Ian

[The Johnster]

As to the speed of XP rated goods stock...

 

There was a series of derailments in the 60s due to rough riding of short wheelbase wagons, i.e. 10' and less, which had traditionally been allowed to run at up to 60mph, culminating in the very bad one on the ECML at Thirsk in 1967 which destroyed DP2 and sadly resulted in 7 fatalities.  They were attributed in part to the increase in mileage between repairs of such wagons caused by their intensified use on the post Beeching railway and the general increase in freight train speeds brought about for the same reason and that diesel hauled freights tended to be able to run at higher average speeds than the equivalent steam ones, because diesels tended to be able to deploy full power at lower speeds and get up to running speed quicker.  A 45mph speed restriction had already been put in place shortly before the Thirsk accident, which caused some furore at the time with press articles demanding the immediate withdrawal of the 'killer' wagons.

 

As pointed out, XP stands for eXpress Passenger and is applied to freight stock, not NPCCS.  Prior to the 45mph restriction, short wheelbase wagons were allowed to run at up to 60mph, XP branded or not, but only timetabled at such a speed on class C Express Freight trains, class 6 in the post-steam era,   Until the single manning agreement, which arose out of a dispute regarding Freightliner workings in, IIRC, 1969, all trains were required by the Board of Trade to carry a brake van in which a guard was riding; even after that, all trains had to carry a guard, who now rode on the loco in the rear cab.   Let us discuss practice prior to that, broadly speaking the steam era.  Bit of a generalisation short wheelbase stock such as vanfits, conflats, etc, run at 60mph.  Long wheelbase 4 or 6 wheel stock runs at 75mph.  Freightliner trains prior to 1969 were supplied with BG or downrated suburban brake 3rds painted in the red and silver livery, and there was a dreadful little glassfibre box that could be loaded onto the trian for the guard to ride in; I believe it was this that triggered the dispute.  I have no idea how it was heated, but a coal stove in a highly inflammable fibreglass box rocking and rolling around at 75mph does not sound safe to me!

 

On a class C train, a 'fitted' brake van would be provided, with a vacuum gauge and a brake setter, usually at the rear of the train but not necessarily, as up to 40 axles of fully fitted vehicles could be marshalled behind it.  From photos, I would say that this practice was fairly common on the ECML, which ran a lot of such trains as a result of being the main route of the fish traffic, and less so elsewhere, but take that with caution; it is not my field of expertise.  The guard was responsible for ensuring that he or a competent person had carried out a brake test in which the brake shoes were applied to the wheels on the last 4 axles (we kicked them to see if they moved).  The 40 axle rule did not just apply to freights, and passenger trains with up to 10 bogies behind the van were common, especially during the 70s when fixed formations were the norm on main lines.  A fully fitted freight would carry a single tail light on the rearmost vehicle, whereas any part or unfitted freight, which of course would have a brake van at the rear (in which a guard must ride, wording that crops up repeatedly in General and Sectional Appendices), would carry the tail light plus the brake van side lights as well.  

 

Goods brake vans appeared in both fitted and unfitted freights as empty vehicles being worked back to home depot or for other traffic purposes, and could sometimes make up an entire train.  They could be unfitted (grey livery), fitted, or 'piped', i.e fitted with a through vacuum pipe so that brakes could be applied on fitted vehicles marshalled to the rear, but no actual vacuum brakes itself.  Such a vehicle is identified by having it's vacuum pipe painted white instead of the usual red.  Piped vehicles account for the apparent anomaly of an air-braked vehicle in a vacuum train or fitted head.  Both fitted and piped brake vans carried XP markings so long as they were equipped with pneumatic buffers and screw couplings, and could quite legitimately run 'empty' in tail traffic, though of course the pipe ones could not be one of the last 2 vehicles.

 

It was entirely possible to see short distance workings which did not have brake vans, carried unfitted stock, had tail lamps hung on the rear drawhook, which were sometimes propelled, yet were not shunting movements because they ran outside station limits.  We had one at Canton in the early 70s, a trip working that serviced the Ferry Road branch and Ely Paper Mill with an 08 whose cab, with a driver, guard, and travelling shunter aboard, could be quite convivial.  We propelled to Ely Paper Mill from Penarth North Curve yard, and returned drawing the train but wrong road.  All this apparent flouting of normal practice was carried out under specific conditions and under the authority of the Sectional Appendix which specified a 15mph speed not to be exceeded and the number of wagons allowed, 40 IIRC.

 

Little of this has much to do with mixed trains or tail traffic, which were by and large a feature of branch lines, and particularly quiet or remote ones in the case of mixed trains.  A passenger train carrying an NPCCS vehicle other than the guard's brake was not really carrying tail traffic in the strictest sense of the world, but the first Cardiff-Rhymni dmu of the day which carried a passenger rated van for newspapers was described as carrying tail traffic, justifiable in the case of a dmu which was restricted as to the load it could draw in this fashion.

 

To summarise as a general guide for modelling purposes:-

 

Tail traffic,,,,,,,, XP rated freight stock marshalled behind the passenger stock of a passenger train. fully fitted throughout and the rearmost 4 axles brake tested.  Single red tail lamp on rear vehicle.  Vanfits, conflats, fitted 5-plank opens, Insulfish, covered milk vans or tanks only as far as the junction on a branch line, that sort of thing.  Any 10' wheelbase wagons restricted to 60mph steam, 45 post-steam (very short period at end of steam).

 

Main line milk traffic, loaded...... NPCCS brake van provided, but 55mph speed limit.  Consists of tanks, and/or vans carrying churns in earlier periods.  Tanks/vans can be marshalled to the rear of the brake van. Note need to provide heated guard's accommodation in steam heating period with no steam heating connections from the loco; brake van must have stove if not coupled to loco.  Can run without a brake van post 1969

 

Main line milk traffic, empties........ Runs as freight train, and often as part of general freight service marshalled with other traffic.  45mph for empty tanks (less stable empty for some reason).  Can run as fully fitted freight, without a van post 1969.

 

Mixed (remember the OP?)....... Freight stock marshalled behind the passenger portion of a passenger train which may already include XP tail traffic, but this portion not necessarily XP rated and not necessarily fitted; may include mineral wagons.  A brake van, in which a guard must ride, must be at the rear of the train, showing a red tail light to the rear and the side lights.  45mph, and runs to special instruction as provided in a Sectional Appendix.  Quiet or remote branch, timetabled to take into account shunting at stations and slower running with loose coupled wagons.  From a modelling perspective, small branch or remote Scottish outpost.

 

Complicated stuff these railways...

[Karhedron]

The requirement for fully fitted goods trains to include a brake van was not abolished until the practice of the guard riding in the rear cab of the (diesel) loco was agreed, IIRC c1972.

I believe this was 1968.

[The Stationmaster]

Where was the authority published for 40 axles behind the brakevan of a Class C freight train?  I'm blowed if I can find it anywhere.  For some reason memory suggest to me no more than two wagons behind the brakevan on a fitted freight.

[Fenman]

... Cattle wagons were freight; horse boxes were NPCCS. Cattle were classified as livestock and conditions for their rail transport were not as demanding as for horses which were considered valuable bloodstock and were typically transported by rail to and from race meetings. Pigeon vans were NPCCS because they conveyed racing birds rather than livestock. Pigeons when conveyed by parcels or passenger train in their baskets and stowed in the brake / parcel van merely earned a few more pennies in the railway coffers.

...

 

Sorry if this is OT but your post sent my brain racing. It occurred to me that I know of racehorses being transported by rail, and special arrangements for racing pigeons; but were there special arrangements for racing greyhounds?

 

Paul

[The Stationmaster]

Sorry if this is OT but your post sent my brain racing. It occurred to me that I know of racehorses being transported by rail, and special arrangements for racing pigeons; but were there special arrangements for racing greyhounds?

 

Paul

 

I never came across any or any mention of any apart from occasional accompanied single animal journeys.  And knowing the betting proclivities of various of my former workmates over the years I'm quite sure that the transport of racing greyhounds would have been as eagerly discussed as that of racehorses as those accompanying such movements seem to have been renowned as sources of excellent tips and in pre-betting shop days, so I was told, everywhere on the railway with a concentration of staff had at least one bookies runner on the paybill. 

[roythebus]

Surely horse boxes containing horses and groom had to run as passenger trains because there were passengers i.e the groom in the horse box? they were probbably steam-heated too.

 

I remember seeing Freightliner brakes in about 1967 at Camden road painted BR grey; they were ex GN (I think) short brake 3rd BR standard coaches; must have been air brake fitted or piped. I wasn't into noticing that much detail in those days. They were lettered FREIGHTLINER BRAKE. i made a model of one in about 1968 from a Hornby Dublo suburban brake when BR grey was added to the Humbrol range.

[The Stationmaster]

Surely horse boxes containing horses and groom had to run as passenger trains because there were passengers i.e the groom in the horse box? they were probbably steam-heated too.

 

I remember seeing Freightliner brakes in about 1967 at Camden road painted BR grey; they were ex GN (I think) short brake 3rd BR standard coaches; must have been air brake fitted or piped. I wasn't into noticing that much detail in those days. They were lettered FREIGHTLINER BRAKE. i made a model of one in about 1968 from a Hornby Dublo suburban brake when BR grey was added to the Humbrol range.

 

For the purposes of the Regulations a single groom travelling in a horsebox was not regarded as a passenger.

[The Johnster]

Sorry if this is OT but your post sent my brain racing. It occurred to me that I know of racehorses being transported by rail, and special arrangements for racing pigeons; but were there special arrangements for racing greyhounds?

 

Paul

 

In the 70s, greyhounds were carried in the guard's van of passenger trains, their leads being tied to a window grille.  Greyhounds are passive creatures when they are not trying to outrun an electric rabbit, and did not seem to object much, although they did like it if the Guard tickled their ears and fussed them.  I imagine the same system was used pre-1970, but am not qualified to state that as a definite fact.  They were labeled TBC (To Be Collected) at destination pretty much like a parcel with legs...  I assume they always were collected, as I have never heard of one not being.  I imagine the RSPCA would have been called in if no owner could be traced.