Colours of colour light signals

[Lancs_fus]

Hello all,

 

Looking for some direction on approximately appropriate colour scheme for LMS colour light signals. I have built 6 of the Eckon 3 aspect colour light signals kits and the instructions provide no details about the colour scheme and google images hasn't revealed anything obvious. I have sprayed the signals with white undercoat and have some matt black enamel paint ready to go... You can see my build here on the following link if interested:

 

[beast66606]

As a general rule.

 

Distants had black and white striped posts.

 

Stop signals had white posts with black heads.

 

but ...

[Lancs_fus]

Thanks for that. What about ladders and stays and telephone boxes etc? Were they all black too?

[beast66606]

Thanks for that. What about ladders and stays and telephone boxes etc? Were they all black too?

 

Telephone boxes were grey, stays and ladders I think were also black.

[bécasse]

Colour light signals were rare on the LMSR apart from some distant signals and some special schemes - the DC lines between Camden and Watford and the Mirfield speed signalling scheme, for example - so it is difficult to be pedantic about how they were painted.

 

Beast66606 has already given the colours that the signals should have been painted according to the specification, and I would add two things to that:

 

Firstly, the striped paint scheme only applied to the posts of isolated distant signals (unlikely to be reproduced on a model railway, perhaps?) and, in the particular case of colour light signals, black was applied to the lowest 3'-6" above the base and then 2'-0" stripes of white and black alternated.

 

Secondly, the LMSR doesn't seem to have gone in for signal-post mounted telephones, instead having a separate and substantial wooden telephone cupboard mounted orthogonally to the track on one or more round or rectangular wooden posts which were probably creosoted when new; the boxes faced towards the relevant track and were, as beast66606 has said, painted grey. You really need to find a photo of one to model it successfully - they were used at some semaphore signals as well. Where there was a telephone at a signal the post bore a "T" sign, if there was track circuit or a fireman's call plunger the "T" was painted black on the relevant diamond or D sign, otherwise on a small upright rectangular plate, all three were white.

 

Although the specification seems clear, contemporary photographs seem to show that (except for isolated distant signals) it wasn't followed in practice and that actually colour light signals were all over mid-grey, excepting that the signal hoods and lens surrounds facing the train were painted matt black and that any signs (signal number/numbers etc, T and D signs and t/c diamonds) were white with black letters/numbers. 

 

I have considered whether the mid-grey might be the result of white lead paint being affected by hydrogen sulphide gas in the atmosphere (which would certainly and quite quickly darken white lead paint) but have discounted the possibility because semaphore signal posts, also painted with white lead paint, in the same vicinity don't show what would have to the same uniform colour change, they just look dirty.

[The Stationmaster]

Colour light signals were rare on the LMSR apart from some distant signals and some special schemes - the DC lines between Camden and Watford and the Mirfield speed signalling scheme, for example - so it is difficult to be pedantic about how they were painted.

 

Beast66606 has already given the colours that the signals should have been painted according to the specification, and I would add two things to that:

 

Firstly, the striped paint scheme only applied to the posts of isolated distant signals (unlikely to be reproduced on a model railway, perhaps?) and, in the particular case of colour light signals, black was applied to the lowest 3'-6" above the base and then 2'-0" stripes of white and black alternated.

 

Secondly, the LMSR doesn't seem to have gone in for signal-post mounted telephones, instead having a separate and substantial wooden telephone cupboard mounted orthogonally to the track on one or more round or rectangular wooden posts which were probably creosoted when new; the boxes faced towards the relevant track and were, as beast66606 has said, painted grey. You really need to find a photo of one to model it successfully - they were used at some semaphore signals as well. Where there was a telephone at a signal the post bore a "T" sign, if there was track circuit or a fireman's call plunger the "T" was painted black on the relevant diamond or D sign, otherwise on a small upright rectangular plate, all three were white.

 

Although the specification seems clear, contemporary photographs seem to show that (except for isolated distant signals) it wasn't followed in practice and that actually colour light signals were all over mid-grey, excepting that the signal hoods and lens surrounds facing the train were painted matt black and that any signs (signal number/numbers etc, T and D signs and t/c diamonds) were white with black letters/numbers. 

 

I have considered whether the mid-grey might be the result of white lead paint being affected by hydrogen sulphide gas in the atmosphere (which would certainly and quite quickly darken white lead paint) but have discounted the possibility because semaphore signal posts, also painted with white lead paint, in the same vicinity don't show what would have to the same uniform colour change, they just look dirty.

 

Mid grey was later - the white/black scheme was widely used on LMR colour light signals right through the WCML electrification period (i.e the original scheme) although some parts of gantry and bracket structures were painted mid-grey even back then).  All over mid grey came later and grey was also adopted on semaphore signals instead of black.  T signs seem to have been rather uncommon on LMR signals although D signs were widely used and were found on signals with telephones as well as signals with call plungers however with the WCML modernisation there were some changes before the final changeover to the first style of BR standard signal ID plate which appeared on the northern extension of the WCML scheme.

 

Colour light signals in the black/white scheme definitely survived into the 1990s as I photographed a number of them at that time in order to record the details before they were totally superseded by the grey scheme.  Here are two signals at Nuneation which I photographed in 1993 still in the original black/white scheme which style they had worn from new; both carry the style of numberplate the LMR adopted at the time of WCML electrification and which was later superseded by the first BR standard pattern plate.

 

[bécasse]

Mid grey was later - the white/black scheme was widely used on LMR colour light signals right through the WCML electrification period (i.e the original scheme) although some parts of gantry and bracket structures were painted mid-grey even back then).  All over mid grey came later and grey was also adopted on semaphore signals instead of black.  T signs seem to have been rather uncommon on LMR signals although D signs were widely used and were found on signals with telephones as well as signals with call plungers however with the WCML modernisation there were some changes before the final changeover to the first style of BR standard signal ID plate which appeared on the northern extension of the WCML scheme.

 

Colour light signals in the black/white scheme definitely survived into the 1990s as I photographed a number of them at that time in order to record the details before they were totally superseded by the grey scheme.  Here are two signals at Nuneation which I photographed in 1993 still in the original black/white scheme which style they had worn from new; both carry the style of numberplate the LMR adopted at the time of WCML electrification and which was later superseded by the first BR standard pattern plate.

 

 

I don't disagree with Mike at all, but the question referred to the painting scheme of LMS, not LMR, colour light signals and all the previous answers referred to the pre-nationalisation situation as well, although they are likely to also be (at least mainly correct) for the first few years of BR as well. All the photos that I checked to ascertain that mid-grey rather than white was used dated from the mid-to late-1930s, together with one rather distant shot (which wasn't dated but was clearly early post-war) which seemed to confirm that white hadn't been introduced by then.

 

Wood, who had succeeded Bound, did make some changes to the painting specification for LMS signals c1946 and these might have included painting the posts of colour light signals white instead of mid-grey. However, photographic evidence suggests that these changes were observed in the breach rather than by observance - certainly most isolated distant signals continued to be repainted with black and white stripes despite the revised specification requiring just white to be used, and S&T painting gangs would still have been issued with mid-grey paint for other purposes.

[The Stationmaster]

I don't disagree with Mike at all, but the question referred to the painting scheme of LMS, not LMR, colour light signals and all the previous answers referred to the pre-nationalisation situation as well, although they are likely to also be (at least mainly correct) for the first few years of BR as well. All the photos that I checked to ascertain that mid-grey rather than white was used dated from the mid-to late-1930s, together with one rather distant shot (which wasn't dated but was clearly early post-war) which seemed to confirm that white hadn't been introduced by then.

 

Wood, who had succeeded Bound, did make some changes to the painting specification for LMS signals c1946 and these might have included painting the posts of colour light signals white instead of mid-grey. However, photographic evidence suggests that these changes were observed in the breach rather than by observance - certainly most isolated distant signals continued to be repainted with black and white stripes despite the revised specification requiring just white to be used, and S&T painting gangs would still have been issued with mid-grey paint for other purposes.

 

The Bound period standard painting spec for tubular steel posts was black at the lower part and whit for the rest plus white for dolls on gantries.

 

Interestingly there is a very early view of a straight post signal at Mirfield on the net and it shows the post painted in black for the base casting and the remainder in a very pale colour - most likely white for that period although it could conceivably be aluminium but much too pale for the grey the LMS used on bracket and gantry structures.  There is also a published early photo of a colour light signal on the Euston  -Watford scheme which shows a considerable contrast between the colour of the base and that of the rest of the signal post and both of these colours contrst with an intermediate shade (?grey) used on the small brackets on which some of the heads are mounted.

 

On the other hand a contemporaneous picture of one of the few newly installed straight post signals on the Manchester Exchange scheme shows a much darker shade on the signal post - quite likely grey or even a dark version of an aluminium paint (which could be found on signals at Exchange many years later but was undoubtedly a repaint).

 

What is very clear from numerous pictures and examples I have seen of LMS/LMR signals is that they seemed to get dirty very quickly in some places especially where clearances were relatively tight and such weathering would be typical of white lead paint with its tendency to lose colour.

[Lancs_fus]

Thank you for all of the information. I will run with black and white as it is not a model of an exact replica it's a Berko signal for goodness sake which probably doesn't represent any known signal anyway All good thanks very much.

[Lancs_fus]

Just in the spirit of continuing, I discovered that my lovingly crafted Eckon signals, six of, didn't fit between the already laid track with out offering a potential impact point for trains with clearance of a millimetre or fractions thereof so I got hold of some ratio Pratt Truss kits and fashioned a cantelever and used the Eckon signals to make my own version of a bracket type signal. This will do the job on the staging tracks and fiddle yard just to let operators know when to drive out on any of the six tracks.

[Lancs_fus]

Just keeping this alive I guess. Not sure what mid grey as a colour looks like so I got hold of a can of Rustoleum flat grey primer from the hardware store which looks ok to me for my non prototypical signal! I painted the face, hood, shrouds black by brush and installed the colour LEDs that were from the Eckon kits but the wires are a bit short so I will have to solder on some extensions and disguise it as a junction box on the side of the pole that is out of view anyway. I might paint the wires the same grey too or see if I can fit them in a tube of brass and paint the tube like a conduit or something. Anyway, I added a tubular out of aluminium I think it was on the inside of the coloumn to stiffen it as it was a bit flimsy acting as a cantelever. Will carry on and get the electrics finished and then add some details like white for the track circuit diamonds and some numbers and weathering powders etc.

[Lancs_fus]

Well even though we are on a family holiday there is still time to do some modelling and in this case it is the wiring up of the coloured light signals that I have been looking forward too. I have extended the wires of the LEDs so that they will be long enough to penetrate the layout board using Kynar wire soldered to the LED wire ends and covered with heat shrink tubing to prevent shorting. Each LED had its own wire soldered to its respective cathode so I have made one common cathod for the whole signal and all six LEDs by soldering a single black wire to the six white wires which will simplify wiring.

 

While I am currently not planning to use the Digitrax SE8C signal board I have adopted the Digitrax Terminal Strip Mounting Kit (TSMK) which per the photo you can see offers screw terminals for the signal wires plus a set of surface mount SMD resistors of 100 ohms each per LED and a 10 pin (2 x 5) IDC male connection. This IDC along with some rainbow ribbon cable will be used to run the wires from the signal to the Signatrak CML SIGM20 control board.

[Lancs_fus]

So the second bracket signal is underway plus wiring up the first to the Digitrax TSMK Terminal Strip Mounting Kit plus I made a 10 wire ribbon cable using IDCs which are insulation displacement connectors from the Digitrax SDCK Signal Driver Cable Kit. I have put a short video together on how the signals and ribbon cable are built that hopefully explains it better than a lot of words!

 

https://youtu.be/Ukp1yCzgKG8