Why did BR keep the Vale of Rheidol?

[ejstubbs]

Given that the Vale of Rhiedol was largely/entirely a tourist railway at nationalisation, why did BR not sell it on at some point prior to 1989?  The VoR seems to have been an obvious anomaly within the BR system from the get-go.  When I rode on it back in the days when the locos were carrying BR blue, "The Great Little Trains of Wales" were being actively and widely marketed.  There would appear to have been a decent opportunity for someone to have taken it on and made something of it several years before it was finally "privatised".  I understand that Barbara Castle made a statement in 1968 that "there is no proposal to close the line, but the position is reviewed at the end of each season", but that doesn't on the face of it seem to rule out it being put up for sale as a going concern.

[woodenhead]

BR wasn't in the habit of selling things, closing but not selling.

 

If you think at the beginning of the 80s BR still had ships and hotels.

[PhilJ W]

Given that the Vale of Rhiedol was largely/entirely a tourist railway at nationalisation, why did BR not sell it on at some point prior to 1989?  The VoR seems to have been an obvious anomaly within the BR system from the get-go.  When I rode on it back in the days when the locos were carrying BR blue, "The Great Little Trains of Wales" were being actively and widely marketed.  There would appear to have been a decent opportunity for someone to have taken it on and made something of it several years before it was finally "privatised".  I understand that Barbara Castle made a statement in 1968 that "there is no proposal to close the line, but the position is reviewed at the end of each season", but that doesn't on the face of it seem to rule out it being put up for sale as a going concern.

Thats it in a nutshell, it continued to be profitable so was not closed or sold off. A change of government to one that was prepared to privatise flog off the family jewels to the highest bidder and selling it off was inevitable.

[ejstubbs]

BR wasn't in the habit of selling things, closing but not selling.

 

If you think at the beginning of the 80s BR still had ships and hotels.

 

Sealink was sold to Sea Containers in 1984.  British Transport Hotels was sold off in bits over 1983-84.  The VoR outlived both of those businesses in BR ownership!

 

But yes, in the period I am thinking of BR did indeed have ships and hotels as well.  They did seem to have a more readily justifiable role in the business, though: people going places often need hotels to stay in when they get there, and the Sealink ships provided a way to integrate BR's rail network with those of our nearest maritime neighbours.  The VoR was little more than a tourist attraction, while as a railway it used both a different gauge to the rest of the network, and different motive power.  Flog it off to someone else (as could easily have been done if it was indeed profitable) and it wouldn't have diminished the rest of the business in any way.  Any positive cashflow it contributed to the organisation as a whole must have been tiny compared to the public money required to keep the rest of the organisation running.

 

I'm being a bit devil's advocate here - I'm not saying it was a missed opportunity or anything like that.  Just musing, really.

[woodenhead]

Perhaps BR felt a duty to retain it, it obvisously had a reason to be included in Nationalisation and its staff would have been BR so selling them and the railway might have been outside of its powers i.e. only the government had such powers.

[Edwin_m]

As no bit of BR had been sold off and this would have been a very small part, I guess it was just seen as too difficult to do for such a small benefit.  As long as it returned a profit every year the local management were probably quite happy to keep it going and as long as it didn't have any major problems 222 Marylebone probably either didn't know about it or didn't care. 

[Nearholmer]

I'm not sure what the legal position would have been, whether it might have required an act to amend an act, but the cultural climate wasn't exactly conducive to it.

 

For a sale to occur, it is necessary to have one party thinking of selling, and another thinking of buying; in the 1970s, selling railways as going concerns wasn't BR's business, their raison d'etre was to run railways, and there weren't people looking to buy railways to run on a commercial basis.

 

It's difficult now to get into the 1970's mindset, but thinking was very different from that which prevails now. Things were still being nationalised, which would, I guess, be pretty much unthinkable now (unless the things concerned were banks in need of a bail-out).

 

Kevin

[Ken.W]

The business of selling off the subsidiaries, ships, hotels, etc, and eventually the bits of BR itself, was political and not at BRB level

[Grovenor]

 

it obvisously had a reason to be included in Nationalisation

The reason was that it belonged to the GWR, same as the Welshpool and Llanfair.

Regards

[ian]

Indeed all operating UK railways (except industrial lines) were included in the nationalisation programme. The  Tallyllyn escaped by virtue of oversight and the Festiniog by virtue of being closed at the time. The VoR and W&L were both operational parts of the GWR so were automatically included along with that concern.

 

The VoR had sufficient revenue from the tourist trade to keep going whereas the W&L, which relied on local passengers and freight was, like other unremunerative branchlines, slated for closure. The preservationists had a huge battle on their hands to save (most of) it from oblivion.

[edcayton]

Were none of the standard gauge lines sold as "going concerns"? I'm thinking of the Bluebell and the KWVR in particular.

 

Ed

[PhilJ W]

The reason was that it belonged to the GWR, same as trhe Welshpool and Llanfair.

Regards

If the Lynton & Barnstable had remained open until 1948 as part of the Southern Railway it too would have been nationalised.

[hmrspaul]

I

It's difficult now to get into the 1970's mindset, but thinking was very different from that which prevails now. Things were still being nationalised, which would, I guess, be pretty much unthinkable now (unless the things concerned were banks in need of a bail-out).

 

Kevin

... or a railway infrastructure.

 

Paul

[Tim H]

Were none of the standard gauge lines sold as "going concerns"? I'm thinking of the Bluebell and the KWVR in particular.

 

Ed

 

What was the situation with the Torbay and Dartmouth in 1972?  IIRC the last BR train ran on Friday, and it re-opened as a preserved line the following Monday after a weekend engineering possession to remodel the track layout at the south end of Paignton station.

[phil-b259]

Were none of the standard gauge lines sold as "going concerns"? I'm thinking of the Bluebell and the KWVR in particular.

 

Ed

 

No! - why would BR allow someone else to show expose that their figures / operating practices were wrong and the consequent authority to shut it in the first place be shown to be suspect.

 

What happened with the Bluebell was in 1959 British Railways were persuaded to lease the infrastructure between Sheffield Park and Horsted Keynes to the society for a fixed period. No rolling stock or anything else necessary to make it a 'going concern' as such was included in the deal - though two locos and two carriages were of course sold to the society under separate transactions which allowed trains to operate.

 

It should also be noted that a few years into the lease British Rail made it crystal clear that the lease would not be renewed - and that if the Bluebell could not buy the Sheffield Park - Horsted Keynes section outright when the lease expired then the society would be evicted and the infrastructure sold for scrap - in short there was to be no more leasing out of stuff and the attitude by BR was it had been a mistake to agree a lease in the first place.

[asmay2002]

Were none of the standard gauge lines sold as "going concerns"? I'm thinking of the Bluebell and the KWVR in particular.

 

Ed

Both were closed by BR, then reopened by preservationists.

[keefer]

There's an article on the VoR in the current issue of 'Railway Bylines'

[£1.38]

Indeed all operating UK railways (except industrial lines) were included in the nationalisation programme.

 

Not quite true. There were a few very minor railways that were not nationalised. The Derwent Valley Light Railway and the Easingwold Railway are two that immediately spring to mind.

 

Edit

 

The Liverpool Overhead Railway, Corringham Light Railway and North Sunderland Railway also spring to mind.

[Fat Controller]

Not quite true. There were a few very minor railways that were not nationalised. The Derwent Valley Light Railway and the Easingwold Railway are two that immediately spring to mind.

The Nevill's Dock and Railway Company being one. A shame that the Mumbles Railway wasn't taken over by BR; it would have stopped the Slow Wicked and Terrible bus company taking it over just to close it down.

[phil-b259]

The Nevill's Dock and Railway Company being one. A shame that the Mumbles Railway wasn't taken over by BR; it would have stopped the Slow Wicked and Terrible bus company taking it over just to close it down.

 

And you seriously think BR would have not done the same - particularly given the fate of other non-GWR lines in the Swansea area?

[PenrithBeacon]

The political climate wasn't at all conducive to selling of even parts of nationalised industries unless the perception was that they could make loadsa dough for their new owners. Clearly this wouldn't have been the case for the VoR.

 

This climate changed with Thatcher and even then the nationalised industries were sold off at way below their true value. Also BR was one of the last, perhaps the last, to be de-nationalised in 1997 and I think that most politicians of all parties have regretted it since. A big mistake.

 

Regards

[Fat Controller]

And you seriously think BR would have not done the same - particularly given the fate of other non-GWR lines in the Swansea area?

BR wouldn't have been able to sell the closure as a means to improve local bus services by having a dedicated bus route on the former right-of-way as SWT did. Of the entire route, the only bit which was converted was a few hundred yards at Oystermouth, whilst the buses still sit for ages in static traffic on Mumbles Road.

[phil-b259]

BR wouldn't have been able to sell the closure as a means to improve local bus services by having a dedicated bus route on the former right-of-way as SWT did. Of the entire route, the only bit which was converted was a few hundred yards at Oystermouth, whilst the buses still sit for ages in static traffic on Mumbles Road.

 

It still would have been shut though (however that might have been spun) - and in all likelihood the necessary land for the busway would still have been provided by BR. All the bus company did was get their way a few years earlier.

[dibber25]

The VoR was something that was always dealt with very much at Regional level, latterly as a tiny part of the LMR. The BRB had much bigger fish to fry in those days and I doubt it was even on anyone's radar at the Board, while, if it wasn't presenting the LMR with problems, the only result of a sale would have been putting local railwaymen out of work. It also wasn't many years since the LMR had spent substantial sums at the Aberystwyth end moving the railway into the main station and altering the maintenance arrangements. (CJL)

[Andy Kirkham]

From what I've read the VoR in the post-war years was barely profitable and in some years lost money, but it was supported by certain managers out of sentiment - Oliver Veltom at Oswestry and in later years George Dow at Stoke. Around 1968 there was a possibility of selling it to Aberystwyth town council, and later a consortium of wealthy preservationist (including P.B.Whitehouse and John Snell) tried to buy it - and even bought a diesel loco for the scheme - but still BR didn't sell. Perhaps having invested in the line by re-siting Aberystwyth station BR wanted to make a go of it and see if they could run it profitably. Applying blue livery might not have been the best decision aesthetically, but it looks like a vote of confidence by BR.