Dalek?

[highpeakman]

I watched a You Tube video made by Beast 66606 of the crossing at Eccles today. 

 

 

 

There is a reference and clear pictures of the operation of "Daleks" either side of the crossing which are used to check that the crossing is clear once the barriers are closed.

 

I have not seen or heard of these before (but that is just me failing to keep up with new technology these days). I assume they are some type of sensor rather than a camera? The motorised protective cover is very neat.

 

Sorry if these have been discussed before but I searched the forum and couldn't find any reference.

 

Edit: Just to add that I really enjoy those videos.

2nd Edit. I posted the wrong video initially - now corrected

[phil-b259]

I watched a You Tube video made by Beast 66606 of the crossing at Eccles today.

 

There is a reference and clear pictures of the operation of "Daleks" either side of the crossing which are used to check that the crossing is clear once the barriers are closed.

 

I have not seen or heard of these before (but that is just me failing to keep up with new technology these days). I assume they are some type of sensor rather than a camera? The motorised protective cover is very neat.

 

Sorry if these have been discussed before but I searched the forum and couldn't find any reference.

 

Edit: Just to add that I really enjoy those videos.

 

Those are not "Daleks" either side of the level crossing, they are LIDAR units https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lidar

 

LIDAR units are used in the new Obstacle detection type of crossing  (MD-OD) along with a Radar to prove the crossing is clear during the barrier lowering phase and to allow the protecting signals to change to a proceed aspect.

 

A "Dalek" is I believe railway slang for an 'temporary speed restriction warning board' https://i.ytimg.com/vi/Z7R7OaJkSzw/maxresdefault.jpg

[highpeakman]

Those are not "Daleks" either side of the level crossing, they are LIDAR units https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lidar

 

LIDAR units are used in the new Obstacle detection type of crossing  (MD-OD) along with a Radar to prove the crossing is clear during the barrier lowering phase and to allow the protecting signals to change to a proceed aspect.

 

A "Dalek" is I believe railway slang for an 'temporary speed restriction warning board' https://i.ytimg.com/vi/Z7R7OaJkSzw/maxresdefault.jpg

Thanks very much for the information. That's helpful.

 

I also made an error in posting the wrong video at first but have now corrected it. I am not sure now where the term Dalek came from although I didn't imagine it. I thought that it was mentioned in the video but it might have been in the post that led me to the video which I have now lost track of and can't find. Blame age!

[Ken.W]

A "Dalek" is I believe railway slang for an 'temporary speed restriction warning board' https://i.ytimg.com/vi/Z7R7OaJkSzw/maxresdefault.jpg

A "Dalek" is railway slang for an 'emergency speed restriction warning board', which is what the linked photo shows.

 

(ie a restriction imposed that's not been published in the operating notice, or a published temporary restriction made more restrictive or not removed when scheduled)

[phil-b259]

Thanks very much for the information. That's helpful.

 

I also made an error in posting the wrong video at first but have now corrected it. I am not sure now where the term Dalek came from although I didn't imagine it. I thought that it was mentioned in the video but it might have been in the post that led me to the video which I have now lost track of and can't find. Blame age!

 

The Radar is housed in the giant tick-tac (other railway slang terms for it are available) by the way.

[highpeakman]

A "Dalek" is railway slang for an 'emergency speed restriction warning board', which is what the linked photo shows.

 

(ie a restriction imposed that's not been published in the operating notice, or a published temporary restriction made more restrictive or not removed when scheduled)

Quite happy to accept I used the wrong term.

 

However, just to be clear, I was browsing around the web, idly clicking from item to item, when I connected to that video. Something during that process referred to "Daleks" which is why I used the term. I can no longer backtrack to find what put the idea in my head but I am happy to be corrected.

 

Thanks to all for responding.

 

As someone who worked for many years with RADARs of many types, I had not realised that LIDAR units were being used in this way so found that information to be very interesting.

 

It is also now many years since I worked with anything in RADAR so neither had I realised that it was being used for traffic detection at crossings.

[Bert Cheese]

Railway related Daleks were also of course found in coal fired power stations, these being the control units used to remotely operate the hopper doors of the MGR wagons.

Apparently a couple have been saved from the scrapman, and can be found at Barrow Hill,

[phil-b259]

Quite happy to accept I used the wrong term.

 

However, just to be clear, I was browsing around the web, idly clicking from item to item, when I connected to that video. Something during that process referred to "Daleks" which is why I used the term. I can no longer backtrack to find what put the idea in my head but I am happy to be corrected.

 

Thanks to all for responding.

 

As someone who worked for many years with RADARs of many types, I had not realised that LIDAR units were being used in this way so found that information to be very interesting.

 

It is also now many years since I worked with anything in RADAR so neither had I realised that it was being used for traffic detection at crossings.

 

The LIDAR and Radar effectively replace the signalmans eyes as used on a traditional barriered crossing worked from an adjacent box or via CCTV.

 

Despite many protests it is actually far safer than the other two methods as it is impossible for it to suffer from the "Looked but did not see" syndrome so beloved by road safety campaigners and which results in people being trapped the wrong side of the barriers more often than you would care to think.

 

Operation of such crossings is detailed here:-

 

https://www.google.co.uk/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=2&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=0ahUKEwjY7f3kopfQAhUJbxQKHW7LBKgQFggjMAE&url=http%3A%2F%2Fnremployee.yolasite.com%2Fresources%2FMCB%2520OD(v2).pdf&usg=AFQjCNHlkpnQJAmRJ4O1dV_lHFu47ecAsA&sig2=l8wOgGR19g6ISJUnqNfL-w

[ColinK]

Thanks for posting the video. I wondered what the obstacle detectors looked like, now I know. Interesting that they stop scanning as the train approaches, so not as good as a person.

[highpeakman]

Thanks for posting the video. I wondered what the obstacle detectors looked like, now I know. Interesting that they stop scanning as the train approaches, so not as good as a person.

Thank you to Beast 66606 for taking it and pointing out these interesting items.

 

Some interesting videos of his on You Tube

[PaulRhB]

Thanks for posting the video. I wondered what the obstacle detectors looked like, now I know. Interesting that they stop scanning as the train approaches, so not as good as a person.

There's been no signalman watching most of these for years, OD crossings are replacing AHBs which no one is watching so it's monitored more than those and if something strikes the barrier hard it drops the signals back automatically.

Even on cctv crossings the screen switches off once you press crossing clear so again no one watching.

OD's are good now the quirks have been ironed out, I have two on my patch, the original issues with the Lidar picking up rain etc have been solved by the NR development team and the manufacturer now uses their solution. It's a very simple solution that raised the accuracy to the high 99% range.

I'll admit to being wary at first but the guy who led the whole project was at one of the meetings and sorted some training for us in person and we got to play with every bit and the radar and lidar are very impressive now. We like them because if you get a fault you can often clear it by taking on manual without sending the MOM.

[highpeakman]

The LIDAR and Radar effectively replace the signalmans eyes as used on a traditional barriered crossing worked from an adjacent box or via CCTV.

 

Despite many protests it is actually far safer than the other two methods as it is impossible for it to suffer from the "Looked but did not see" syndrome so beloved by road safety campaigners and which results in people being trapped the wrong side of the barriers more often than you would care to think.

 

Operation of such crossings is detailed here:-

 

https://www.google.co.uk/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=2&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=0ahUKEwjY7f3kopfQAhUJbxQKHW7LBKgQFggjMAE&url=http%3A%2F%2Fnremployee.yolasite.com%2Fresources%2FMCB%2520OD(v2).pdf&usg=AFQjCNHlkpnQJAmRJ4O1dV_lHFu47ecAsA&sig2=l8wOgGR19g6ISJUnqNfL-w

 

Thank you for that reference. It is really very interesting and I genuinely had not realised the complexity of the technology involved.

 

I had assumed that checking the crossing was clear was done by camera and video link with any motion on the crossing being detected automatically by detection of motion on the video signal. 

 

My local line (Lincoln - Gainsborough) was updated within the last two years and our local box controlled crossing replaced by a full barrier crossing. I must take a closer look next time I drive over it but I don't think it has the low level Lidar as it is in the middle of the country and unlikely to be used by many pedestrians. I will look with new respect at the technology involved.

[Zomboid]

Thanks for posting the video. I wondered what the obstacle detectors looked like, now I know. Interesting that they stop scanning as the train approaches, so not as good as a person.

No matter what the detection method, there comes a point where the train is committed to using the crossing, and the only person who has any chance of changing it is the driver and his emergency stop button.

There not being a person means there's no one to witness the crash.

[PaulRhB]

No matter what the detection method, there comes a point where the train is committed to using the crossing, and the only person who has any chance of changing it is the driver and his emergency stop button.

There not being a person means there's no one to witness the crash.

Not true as the driver is usually our primary witness and most trains now have front cameras and the OD Xings have cameras recording to a hard drive to check the lights and crossing etc while they are working so it can be quickly checked if there's any allegation of problems.

[Zomboid]

What I mean is the comes a point when it doesn't matter who or what is watching the crossing, the train isn't going to stop. No point scanning/ having the cameras on/ a crossing keeper looking at it after that moment.

[The Stationmaster]

 

 

A "Dalek" is I believe railway slang for an 'temporary speed restriction warning board' https://i.ytimg.com/vi/Z7R7OaJkSzw/maxresdefault.jpg

 

Also known in their early days as 'metal mickeys' (even tho' they happened to be plastic).

[PaulRhB]

What I mean is the comes a point when it doesn't matter who or what is watching the crossing, the train isn't going to stop. No point scanning/ having the cameras on/ a crossing keeper looking at it after that moment.

Unfortunately the point of these cameras is to prove that all the railway equipment was working so the person fouling the crossing doesn't get off by claiming X, Y or Z wasn't working. So yes there is a point having electronic data or people as witnesses all through the sequence as crossings are updated. People suffer from shock too which can affect their memory of an incident.

The scanning stops once the gates are down and the boom sensors then take over as the only way on is through them. It also means the shutters can close and protect the lasers lens from dirt whipped up by the passing train. Even the shutters are designed to shed dirt as they open and close. There's some neat engineering thinking in them.

[PaulRhB]

Also known in their early days as 'metal mickeys' (even tho' they happened to be plastic).

and still known as that more often than Dalek in my experience.

[PaulRhB]

One more thing is that as these crossings spread there are more advances to come in remote monitoring of them but they are pretty much the cutting edge in safety terms, and I've worked both types of manual xings, CCTV and AHBs.

When we were trained you could see our legs as we were walking around and a rather impressive profile when you laid down. I won't mention names but one of our colleagues showed up on the high level scan lying down

[pete_mcfarlane]

Also known in their early days as 'metal mickeys' (even tho' they happened to be plastic).

I now have the Metal Mickey theme song stuck in my head.........

[phil_sutters]

Apparently a couple have been saved from the scrapman, and can be found at Barrow Hill,

That raises an interesting point - is anyone taking steps to preserve infrastructure and equipment from the recent past? We all seem very attached to the kit and caboodle from the steam age, but does anyone care whether colour light signals are preserved when in-cab signalling becomes the norm? Has anyone stuck a 'brute' into a museum? Will there be the same interest in running a 313 up and down a preserved third rail branch? Maybe it will be down to the model enthusiasts to keep the rail history in tangible but miniature form or will it all be in 3D digital records?

[phil-b259]

Thanks for posting the video. I wondered what the obstacle detectors looked like, now I know. Interesting that they stop scanning as the train approaches, so not as good as a person.

 

Sorry to break it to you but level crossing are not observed by humans either. On CCTV crossings the picture gets switched off* once the signaller presses the 'crossing clear button' (unless they do that the protecting signals will not show a proceed) while on crossings operated from an adjacent signal box the signaller is not expected to continually observe the crossing either.

 

You need to remember that signallers are there to run the railway - not to act as policeman and keep watch for law breakers who might try and climb over the crossing - once the crossing is closed to road traffic and observed to be clear the railway has every right to assume it will stay that way. Signallers are also busy people and don't have the time to sit there like a security guard 'just in case' some decides to be an idiot. Furthermore full barriered crossings have things like down proving (which proves all barriers remain 5 degrees from horizontal) and boom proving (which proves the boom is still actually there) with the signals protecting the crossing going back to red if either of these are lost.

 

* The picture can be called up again but this is not encouraged - its main use being when there is an issue with the cameras / picture quality and the S&T need to work on it

[beast66606]

Thanks very much for the information. That's helpful.

 

I also made an error in posting the wrong video at first but have now corrected it. I am not sure now where the term Dalek came from although I didn't imagine it. I thought that it was mentioned in the video but it might have been in the post that led me to the video which I have now lost track of and can't find. Blame age!

 

The description mentions dalek - because my mate, who's a senior signalling engineer, refers to them as level crossing daleks - probably tongue in cheek as he's no fool and I've taken it a bit too literally.

[Fat Controller]

I must confess to being a little confused on hearing these devices being called 'Daleks'; I'd always understood that nickname to be applied to the devices used to close the doors of Merry-Go-Round hoppers after unloading.

[beast66606]

That raises an interesting point - is anyone taking steps to preserve infrastructure and equipment from the recent past? We all seem very attached to the kit and caboodle from the steam age, but does anyone care whether colour light signals are preserved when in-cab signalling becomes the norm? Has anyone stuck a 'brute' into a museum? Will there be the same interest in running a 313 up and down a preserved third rail branch? Maybe it will be down to the model enthusiasts to keep the rail history in tangible but miniature form or will it all be in 3D digital records?

 

Yes is the simple answer, there are/were some very nice colour lights which are worthy of preservation and my natural "make sure we save a few" instincts even makes me believe some of the modern cra structures should be preserved.