Does anyone model pre-1831 railways?

[Ruston]

Early railways and their locomotives are a subject that I find fascinating. The oldest book in my collection is the 1832 edition of Nicholas Wood's A Practical Treatise On Rail Roads and one of my most prized books is C.F. Dendy Marshall's 1953 publication of A History Of Railway Locomotives Down To The Year 1831.

 

I don't remember ever having seen a model railway, other than a static model of the Stockton & Darlington, of a pre-1831 railway.

 

The reason for the year 1831as a cut-off would be something to do with the Livepool & Manchester being the first "proper" locomotive-worked railway (but then that opened in 1830...) where the earliest were the original industrial railways.

 

Are there any proper working layouts for this time period?

 

If you have any models of early locos please share them here.

 

P.S. If anyone from Bachmann, or Hornby is reading this, can we please have a RTR Steam Elephant, or Royal George? (more chance of me winning the lottery).

[Talltim]

There was a layout in RM in the 70s, possibly based on or imagineered onthe Stockton and Darlington. Anyone have a better recollection?

[Steamport Southport]

Yes. I've got that one somewhere. it was one of the first issues to have proper colour photographs in it if I remember correctly. Possibly about the time of the S&D 150th anniversary.

 

 

 

Jason

[BG John]

1831 is pre broad gauge, so too early for me!

[CKPR]

There was a layout in RM in the 70s, possibly based on or imagineered onthe Stockton and Darlington. Anyone have a better recollection?

 

September 1975 IIRC 

[pete_mcfarlane]

That's the layout now on static display in the Darlington museum.

 

I once saw a large static model of a canal with connecting horedrawn plateway system. Obviously the model horses didn't work! No idea what happened to it - it was in the Nottingham canal museum, which closed years ago and is now my favourite pub.

[Talltim]

September 1975 IIRC

The month I was born!

[Ohmisterporter]

I have seen a couple of garden railways with Hornby Rocket and coaches running, but they were not built specifically as early L & M layouts. I also saw a 7.25" gauge live steam Locomotion on a club site somewhere, again not running on a purely S & D layout. I wonder if Mike Sharman did anything this early?

[uax6]

Early railways and their locomotives are a subject that I find fascinating. The oldest book in my collection is the 1832 edition of Nicholas Wood's A Practical Treatise On Rail Roads and one of my most prized books is C.F. Dendy Marshall's 1953 publication of A History Of Railway Locomotives Down To The Year 1831.

 

I too have Nicholas Wood's book, but sadly mine is a second edition published a couple of years later. It was a Christmas present a couple of years back, and is an amazing book to dip into.

 

I see that its now available in paperback format, somewhat more cheaply than our copies!

 

Andy G

[Londontram]

I once saw a large static model of a canal with connecting horedrawn plateway system. Obviously the model horses didn't work!

It can be done as this tram layout shows

 

 

and the first layout at 0.30 in this clip which also gives some detail information

 

 

Can someone pass the coconuts please!

 

Edit add - I thought I'd better say I have no connection with this just an impressed viewer

[Corbs]

There was a chap on here who was building a fictional very early railway, it may have been set in the 1830s though. He was kitbashing quite a few GBL 'Rockets' I think.

 

Whilst not a model (although some may say it's a 1:1 scale model), Paul Jarman wrote an interesting article about ancient locomotives that you can download from this page:http://beamishtransportonline.co.uk/downloads/articles/

[BG John]

It can be done as this tram layout shows

 

I don't know what it looks like from a higher viewing angle, but I was always under the impression that horse's feet touched the ground when they were walking! I keep coming up with ideas where I'd need moving horses, but they'd have to be far more convincing than that. Having them moving behind a wall or hedge, so you can't see their legs, is the most promising idea so far, but it limits the possible uses.

[jetmorgan]

There was a layout in RM in the 70s, possibly based on or imagineered onthe Stockton and Darlington. Anyone have a better recollection?

Yes there was...I may even have a copy of it in my collection. I think it may have been a 2 parter....I'll have a look when I get the chance and scan a copy if anyone else is interested.

[jamie92208]

If you modelled the Middleton railway with the early Blenkinsop locos you could go back to 1812.  Track would be possible nowadays using 3D printing for masters. 

 

Jamie

[Londontram]

I don't know what it looks like from a higher viewing angle, but I was always under the impression that horse's feet touched the ground when they were walking! 

I've seen this and its fascinating to watch and the chaps have done the best they can within the constraints of the scale and subject and the fact that the horses don't quite touch the street is not so apparent when taken in context looking at the layout generally.

 

     Why is it that what ever is posted on this site of late there's always somebody that has to nitpick and or criticize. Why not use this as a starting point that shows that it can be done then if you can improve it for your own purposes then do so and post the project as a thread that we can all enjoy rather than just pick fault at and run down someone else's work

 

Its the continuing negativity on this forum which is the reason I no longer post much on here any more just mostly sharing posts with a few good friends in private mails

                                                                                                Steve 

[Bernard Lamb]

I don't know what it looks like from a higher viewing angle, but I was always under the impression that horse's feet touched the ground when they were walking! I keep coming up with ideas where I'd need moving horses, but they'd have to be far more convincing than that. Having them moving behind a wall or hedge, so you can't see their legs, is the most promising idea so far, but it limits the possible uses.

That's what I thought.

I was not aware until recently tnat of the main reasons for using cobble stones was so that the horses hooves could get a better grip.

Some streets still exist that were laid with a continuous strip of stone slabs where the iron wheels would run and alternate areas of cobbles where the horses would walk.

Any way. Back to the title. Railways? I thought in that period they were called Railroads. The Liverpool & Manchester and Newcastle & Carlisle lines are so called in early writings as mentioned by Ruston at the start of this thread. 

Bernard

[pete_mcfarlane]

I'm wondering if the horses would be more convincing in a larger scale. If nothing else, it would give more room for the mechanism inside a chauldron wagon or similar. 

[BG John]

I've seen this and its fascinating to watch and the chaps have done the best they can within the constraints of the scale and subject and the fact that the horses don't quite touch the street is not so apparent when taken in context looking at the layout generally.

 

     Why is it that what ever is posted on this site of late there's always somebody that has to nitpick and or criticize. Why not use this as a starting point that shows that it can be done then if you can improve it for your own purposes then do so and post the project as a thread that we can all enjoy rather than just pick fault at and run down someone else's work

 

Its the continuing negativity on this forum which is the reason I no longer post much on here any more just mostly sharing posts with a few good friends in private mails

                                                                                                Steve 

OK. I'll rephrase it:

• I observe that the horse's feet don't touch the ground, although the video doesn't show whether this is noticeable from a higher viewing angle that layouts are commonly seen from.
• I feel that the effect isn't convincing, and to me appears rather gimmicky, although I appreciate that a lot of skill and effort has gone into a very difficult subject to model.
• I have a desire to model working horses, but need to be able to do it in a more convincing way before I would be prepared to put it on public display.
• I would like to request that anyone who has any suggestions on how to go about producing convincing working horses in 4mm and/or 7mm scales shares it with us, as it would make modelling 19th century railways at any date more practical.

Saturday mornings aren't the best time for me to practice my limited abilities at Nonviolent Communication, which is why all I can manage is a brief, and slightly light-hearted comment (hence the exclamation mark used as I was taught to use them), that can be taken out of the context of my whole post .

[BernardTPM]

Back to the title. Railways? I thought in that period they were called Railroads. The Liverpool & Manchester and Newcastle & Carlisle lines are so called in early writings as mentioned by Ruston at the start of this thread. 

Bernard

Tram road, Rail road and Rail way were all in use around that period. This 1825 newspaper report on the opening of the Stockton & Darlington says 'Rail-way' while this map dates to 1817 so the thread title seems valid.

Stationery engines were another common form of propulsion on early lines.

[34theletterbetweenB&D]

...I don't remember ever having seen a model railway, other than a static model of the Stockton & Darlington, of a pre-1831 railway...

 

Are there any proper working layouts for this time period?...

 The Stockton and Darlington model did work when first constructed; as already observed built specifically for the 150th anniversary of the system commencing steam operations. (We are not far off the 200th anniversary, and cheap miniature can motors are now very readily available.)

 

Now, I think we might recognise Beamish as operating a proper working layout of the pre 1831 period. That it has been done 1:1 makes it no less a model.

[jetmorgan]

Right I've found the feature in the September 1975 Railway Modeller, Railway of the Month and made a decent PDF scan, so if anyone wants a copy PM me with your email address and I can email it to you.

[Talltim]

I've often wondered about, but never experimented with, having the horses legs on free moving pivots at the body and having strategically raised cobbles that just brush their hooves to push them back as their powered rail vehicle moves them forward. That way the feet would touch the ground, although I'm not certain the effect would end up any more realistic than in the video, you'd just have different compromises

[jjb1970]

I think it would be a fascinating era to model but I think it is something that'll probably only ever be available to those willing to scratch build as other than the occasional special commemorative model I can't see the era being supported by commercial providers. Personally, if there was a move to make kits and perhaps a bit of RTR of 19th century types I'd prefer to see a slightly later era, 1870's -1890's is an era that would catch some of the charm and quirkiness of 19th Century railway while being more interesting and diverse I think.

[brianusa]

One reason for the dearth of models from this era is that they are not the railways we are familiar with.  There are many broad gauge era books and pictures and it wasn't until this time that there were many photos available for inspiration.  When the Victorian period was well under way, railways began to assume the image that we are more familiar with.  The tracks and infrastructure, many of which are still extant, are as recognisable today as they were a hundred and fifty years ago.

 

Brian.

[Nick Holliday]

In a December issue of Railway Modeller towards the end of the sixties, they featured a layout, as I recall, 1830 and all that, based upon the opening of the Liverpool and Manchester Railway, with several Triang Rockets variously modified, with the track, I think, built using FB rail fixed to the base. It was built by a father and son team, the son being at my school, Wallington Grammar, as mentioned some time ago as being the alma mater of several RMwebbers.