Electrification to Hull cancelled.

[JeffP]

So much for Osborne's Northern Powerhouse.

 

At this rate it'll be a North-Western Powerhouse, and the North east will get the usual....nowt.

[phil-b259]

So much for Osborne's Northern Powerhouse.

 

At this rate it'll be a North-Western Powerhouse, and the North east will get the usual....nowt.

Firstly, can you please post the link you got this information from as it would provide evidence to back up what you are saying.

 

Secondly, take the chip off your shoulder - the reasons why Hull is not getting wires probably has far more to do with the fact that, of the three big schemes anounced by the Government, one is running behind schedule (the NW triangle), the second is running very late with the scheme being cut back to try and recover progress (the GWML) and the third (Trans-Pennine) has been kicked into the long grass as resources are focused on the first two schemes.

 

You should also note that the Edinburgh - Glasgow project is running late too, with plans to take the wires north of Bedford on the MML suffering the same fate as the Trans-Pennine proposal.

 

Thus the North East is not being 'singled out' as you imply - it's just that what with all the above issues, only a fool would expect NR or the DfT to be in a position to undertake further electrification for a decade or so and this announcement / story is merely conformation of that.

[Gordon Connell]

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-humber-38004362

[jonny777]

Firstly, can you please post the link you got this information from as it would provide evidence to back up what you are saying.

 

Secondly, take the chip off your shoulder - the reasons why Hull is not getting wires probably has far more to do with the fact that, of the three big schemes anounced by the Government, one is running behind schedule (the NW triangle), the second is running very late with the scheme being cut back to try and recover progress (the GWML) and the third (Trans-Pennine) has been kicked into the long grass as resources are focused on the first two schemes.

 

You should also note that the Edinburgh - Glasgow project is running late too, with plans to take the wires north of Bedford on the MML suffering the same fate as the Trans-Pennine proposal.

 

Thus the North East is not being 'singled out' as you imply - it's just that what with all the above issues, only a fool would expect NR or the DfT to be in a position to undertake further electrification for a decade or so and this announcement / story is merely conformation of that.

 

 

But just think - if they cancelled HS2 and put all the money saved into electrifying as many of the East-West links as they can afford, the Northern Powerhouse strategy would be well sorted.

 

:devil:

[pete_mcfarlane]

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-humber-38004362

 

Seems pretty reasonable to reject it. Electrifying for half a dozen Hull Trains services each way does seem like it has little benefit. It's also a speculative request from HT, rather than a formal Network Rail scheme. 

 

The Network Rail Electrification RUS document will probably identify the best time to electrify the line as part of the wider scheme of things. 

[chrisf]

If HS2 were cancelled something else would have to be done to provide the capacity.  Two extra tracks on WCML, perhaps?  Not too much of North West London would have to be flattened ...

 

Chris

[2750Papyrus]

If HS2 were cancelled something else would have to be done to provide the capacity.  Two extra tracks on WCML, perhaps?  Not too much of North West London would have to be flattened ...

 

Chris

 

How about a line from London via Aylesbury, Rugby, Leicester, Nottingham and Sheffield to Manchester?  A sort of "Central" line.

[Fenman]

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-humber-38004362

 

I suspect we're going to be seeing a lot more of this type of phrase:

 

"The Department for Transport said the introduction of bi-mode trains, powered by diesel or electric... meant electrification was unnecessary."

 

Paul

[The Stationmaster]

I am fascinated by this peculiar new term (copied below)i which Civil Servants and MPs seem to be using to knock electrification schemes on the head.  All railway modernisation and most infrastructure maintenance work involves what could be described as 'disruption' - you can't even relay track without having some impact ('disruption') on trains unless there are huge gaps in the service overnight or at weekends.  Electrification and resignalling or bridgeworks (for motorways and new bypasses) are just the same - they will potentially impact on ('disrupt') the train service.

 

With the continuing DafT planned major disruption of train services on Southern this all strikes me as another load of blather or nuspeak.  Here we have already been told by an apparently brain dead Minister that we will get new trains on our branchline 'without the disruption of electrification'  - he has not been specific about what they will be but I have yet to come across a battery powered Class 387 emu so the new (literally) train we were told, in writing, we would be getting will presumably have a very long lead to enable it to be plugged in to the mains or maybe DafT have secret plans for clockwork trains?

 

I seriously doubt that the Hull electrification is, or ever was, a runner without full Trans-Pennine electrification and that must be some way off but at least the halfwits at DafT and their nuspeak inspired excuse for a Minister could have said that instead of yet again presenting us with a 'truth' which could well be nearer a lie than a factual explanation;  if they think the scheme is too expensive and can't be funded all they have to do is say so.

 

I quote -

 

by the government, which says the disruption would outweigh any benefits.

[phil-b259]

How about a line from London via Aylesbury, Rugby, Leicester, Nottingham and Sheffield to Manchester? A sort of "Central" line.

For which you would still need to plough through the Chilterns to get to Aylesbury - trying to fit all those express services along the exsisting Chiltern line won't work.

 

Then there's the little matter of all the development in Rugby, Leicester, etc which either requires extensive demolition or... erm... you could build a new alignment through the countryside instead.

[PenrithBeacon]

If HS2 were cancelled something else would have to be done to provide the capacity. Two extra tracks on WCML, perhaps? Not too much of North West London would have to be flattened ...

 

Chris

I was intrigued by the recent announcement for HS2 the it would provide 15k seats to London instead of the current 5k.

 

I can't help but think that this is overcapacity.

 

Regards

[woodenhead]

I suspect we're going to be seeing a lot more of this type of phrase:

 

"The Department for Transport said the introduction of bi-mode trains, powered by diesel or electric... meant electrification was unnecessary."

 

Paul

Now if they would just provide some funds for an extra car in each Voyager they too could go Bi and also have a few more seats to boot.

 

But it's an interesting point, Bi mode does open opportunities for a long lead on electrification schemes giving long term employment to railway workers employed in this kind of work whereas an attempt to do it all at once creates a short term bump and then what do you do with all those engineers when it's done.

[The Stationmaster]

Now if they would just provide some funds for an extra car in each Voyager they too could go Bi and also have a few more seats to boot.

 

But it's an interesting point, Bi mode does open opportunities for a long lead on electrification schemes giving long term employment to railway workers employed in this kind of work whereas an attempt to do it all at once creates a short term bump and then what do you do with all those engineers when it's done.

 

You're assuming there will be a longer term programme.  Knowing the way Govt works (especially The Treasury) that could be a mighty big assumption because once they're paying out for massively over-priced bi-mode trains there might not be any money left for electrification.

[PenrithBeacon]

You're assuming there will be a longer term programme. Knowing the way Govt works (especially The Treasury) that could be a mighty big assumption because once they're paying out for massively over-priced bi-mode trains there might not be any money left for electrification.

It would be a brave politician who would advocate further electrification after the mess of the GWML.

 

Regards

[lmsforever]

What about the strategic steam reserves?That is what DAFT seem to be going towards the UK is becoming a broken country with regards to transport education and health ,rail needs strong people at the top to fight reductions in funding and stop ridiculous projects.

[woodenhead]

You're assuming there will be a longer term programme.  Knowing the way Govt works (especially The Treasury) that could be a mighty big assumption because once they're paying out for massively over-priced bi-mode trains there might not be any money left for electrification.

Ultimately emissions control will drive more and more electrification, but I do think it will focus on core routes like Trans Pennine, MML and suburban networks rather than lines to Hull, Scarborough, Barrow and similar routes where Bi mode trains or some of the new build diesel units on order will suffice for years to come.

 

I wonder where the electrified strategic freight route plan will go now that the railfreight industry is weaker than it was with the loss of coal and steel tonnage - all that investment in locos and wagons from 1997 and much of it now redundant.

[Peter Kazmierczak]

How about a line from London via Aylesbury, Rugby, Leicester, Nottingham and Sheffield to Manchester?  A sort of "Central" line.

 

Using locomotives powered by indigenous fossil fuel.

[Mark Saunders]

Using locomotives powered by indigenous fossil fuel.

Liquefaction of coal could be back on the cards again!

 

Mark Saunders

[TheSignalEngineer]

You've seen the Northern Powerhouse, now for the Northern Powercut.

 

If HS2 were cancelled something else would have to be done to provide the capacity.  Two extra tracks on WCML, perhaps?  Not too much of North West London would have to be flattened ...

 

Chris

 

How about a line from London via Aylesbury, Rugby, Leicester, Nottingham and Sheffield to Manchester?  A sort of "Central" line.

Funnily enough I had to review a project idea about 30 years ago which proposed a new line from the Tring area to the Trent Valley line south of Nuneaton via Aylesbury and Rugby. 

[roythebus]

Maybe they've had to cut rail electrification to pay for the 30,000 civil servants that will be needed to sort out the mess that is called leaving the EU? The money saved by not paying the EU certainly won't be going to the NHS as promised by certain "politicians".

 

I heard at a bus operators meeting this evening that London's electric bus fleet will require an estimated 6 new power stations to provide enough capacity to charge them. How many new power stations for all the rail electrification?

[2750Papyrus]

I fear it will be many years before our financial commitments to the EU come to an end.

[Enterprisingwestern]

I was intrigued by the recent announcement for HS2 the it would provide 15k seats to London instead of the current 5k.

 

I can't help but think that this is overcapacity.

 

Regards

 

I feel you have that the wrong way round David, as with all service improvements connected with London, all that happens is the big earners in London buy up houses in the outlying areas and push prices up for locals so they can commute for the same amount of time as before for less money, thereby making themselves even richer.

 

Mike.

[Christopher125]

I was intrigued by the recent announcement for HS2 the it would provide 15k seats to London instead of the current 5k.

 

I can't help but think that this is overcapacity.

is

Regards

 

HS2 won't be completed for nearly two decades and will no doubt then become the principal north-south route for many decades beyond that, not every seat has to be provided from day one but if there's to be a re-balancing of the economy in the decades ahead we need infrastructure to allow it. That said no-one would have predicted the huge growth we've seen in the last 20 years even on services which have barely improved.

 

As for electrification to Hull it was never confirmed as happening so this isn't a surprise, Hull Trains no longer need it and there are much higher priorities for wiring in the North. It can be revisited at a later date when the Transpennine route is wired and we know the scope of HS3/NPR.

[skipepsi]

The money 'saved' by not electrifying to Hull could perhaps be used to reinstate or upgrade lines around Leeds, perhaps cutting the car driving hordes that arrive each day and of course depart each night.

[The Stationmaster]

The money 'saved' by not electrifying to Hull could perhaps be used to reinstate or upgrade lines around Leeds, perhaps cutting the car driving hordes that arrive each day and of course depart each night.

 

Judging by 'hints' in the media today it is actually going to be spent on roads as part of Mr Hammond's 'investment in infrastructure'  (which seems a bit odd in view of Govt commitment to drastically reduce CO2 emissions a large percentage of which come from road traffic)