GWR 'Cream' Coach colour

[cncmodeller]

Hi all,

I am building some 16mm scale Vale of Rheidol coaches in GWR livery and recently I happened to visit the Severn Valley railway and noticed the chocolate and cream liveried coaches carry a cream colour that has a definite 'Lemon' hue to it, I thought that maybe in error but on Saturday I was at the Vale of Rheidol and there too is that same cream colour.

Does anyone know the actual reference title of the colour?

 

Graham 

[Widnes Model Centre]

Hi all,

I am building some 16mm scale Vale of Rheidol coaches in GWR livery and recently I happened to visit the Severn Valley railway and noticed the chocolate and cream liveried coaches carry a cream colour that has a definite 'Lemon' hue to it, I thought that maybe in error but on Saturday I was at the Vale of Rheidol and there too is that same cream colour.

Does anyone know the actual reference title of the colour?

 

Graham 

 

This may help Graham.

 

http://www.gwr.org.uk/liverieschoccream.html

[cncmodeller]

This may help Graham.

 

http://www.gwr.org.uk/liverieschoccream.html

Hi thanks, No it just says they were 'Cream' 

 

Graham

[The Johnster]

I think Widnes meant that it provides a swatch for you to colour match with; I know you asked for the reference title.  Of course, if you are going to use this sample as a swatch, you will need to calibrate your monitor to ensure that it is correct; not sure where that leaves you if you are working with a smartphone...

 

Colour can be a tricky little divil; your perception of it alters according to the lighting conditions, in that a hazy late afternoon glow will give it a very different cast to the cold blue of a bright winter day, or a dull overcast one, and the colour next to it affects your perception of it as well, not to mention how clean it is on the side of a railway coach hauled by steam engines and pawed by grubby little tourists.  I remember some years back a debate about Midland Railway Crimson Lake, after a modeller had gone to the trouble of matching a sample of the real stuff from Derby Works and painting a 4mm loco in it; it looked far too bright and seemed to be almost signal red, showing that perception is altered by the size of the object painted and your apparent distance from it as well.  If that wasn't enough to worry about, the degree of gloss or matt of the finish can make a difference as well.  On a layout, it will be affected by the hue and cast of the layout lighting, which is a whole nother subject on it's own.  It may sometimes be better to use a colour that 'looks right' to you on your layout, even if you know that it actually isn't, however unintuitive that sounds.

 

Hornby and Lima have in the past been guilty of supplying GW or pseudo-GW coaches in far to dark and yellow a version of cream, while Triang, Hornby's predecessor, got it more or less right with clerestory roof coaches back in the early 60s.  Most modern rtr iterations are pretty close IMHO, and will be ok for matching purposes.

Edited June 5, 2017 by The Johnster

[Widnes Model Centre]

I think Widnes meant that it provides a swatch for you to colour match with; I know you asked for the reference title.  Of course, if you are going to use this sample as a swatch, you will need to calibrate your monitor to ensure that it is correct; not sure where that leaves you if you are working with a smartphone...

 

Yes, it was the swatch I was referring to. On my monitor it definitely shows as a lemon tint.

 

I meant to add that there is some references to modelling the Welsh Valleys and other links. Perhaps the author could be contacted? I have also contacted a friend of mine who among his other duties has to repaint their stock on a heritage GWR line. I await his reply to pass on. Hopefully he won't just reply "Cream" but may have a colour paint reference.

Edited June 5, 2017 by Widnes Model Centre

[Huw Griffiths]

I wonder how consistent any livery colours would have been with any railway in this era.

 

Even if the railway went out of their way to have a reasonably consistent paint "recipe", I suspect that a lot of paints would have been mixed in small batches.

 

Also, a number of pollutants common in the atmosphere at the time would have changed the colours of paint on stock - with the result that, even in the same train, there might have been a number of "mismatches".

 

As for preservation lines and museums, I suspect that they probably run into similar problems - although I'm sure they go to great lengths to "get things right", I wonder if they'll be "spot on" either.

 

 

Huw.

[Ian Kirk]

Hi,

 

In a discussion elsewhere about North British Railway locomotive liveries. It was said that the foreman painter mixed the paint measuring the pigments in units of a handful since they probably only mixed enough for the job in hand  two otherwise identical locomotives could be slightly different shades.  Going in and buying computer mixed paint in any colour you like is a relatively modern thing.  My Grandfather had a Coach Painting/Building business and I can remember them mixing colours in the 1950s in a similarly crude way. This was then tried on a bit of alloy sheet and compared with what they were trying to match. Modern paint now has years of research behind it to avoid fading etc. Even as recently as 30 odd years ago I had a red Vauxhall Cavalier which faded to pink. OK I parked it on a South facing pier but if I wanted to model it what colour would I need? 

All in all I would suggest you choose a colour that looks right to you and go with that.

 

best wishes,

 

Ian

[The Johnster]

Widnes' reply, post 5, shows how subjective this sort of thing can be; my monitor probably shows a very similar colour to his, but I do not perceive any lemon tint in it; it is pure cream, the colour I expect cream to be although only clotted cream is that colour as applied to cream, if you see what I mean, to my eyes.

 

Looking at some stuff on YouTube from exhibitions earlier reminds me that the P C Models printed sides for toplight coaches also had a very yellow sort of colour to my view.

 

Many years ago I cut and shut a Lima Class 117 dmu into a Class 116, and finished it in the original dmu unlined green with whiskers, available as transfers I think from P C.  The green was a guesstimate based on my memory of the sets when they were introduced on the Cardiff Valleys services in 1958, but seems close enough and has been favourably commented on at exhibitions, but again, I was and still am (I still have the model) of the opinion that the numbers and whiskers are too yellow. But they looked yellower on the transfer sheet than they do backed by the green livery on the model.  I have recently used HMRS, genetically the old P C, transfers to number and letter some vans, and I still think they are a bit yellow!  This is probably more to do with my perception of them than their actual yellowness...

 

Another point is that GWR locomotive green, Brunswick Green, looks very different in different lighting conditions.  On some preserved locos it looks too light to me; 3205 comes to mind, but it is a very difficult thing to quantify, and on others much too dark, which may be a consequence of a very high gloss finish.  

[Widnes Model Centre]

I have had a reply from my GWR man, he says "varying shades of cream!"

 

Sadly I no longer have any living relatives who worked on the railway. As a young boy I spent my summers staying with relatives in Aberystwyth. Trips to Devil's Bridge were a frequent day out, especially if it was raining. I stayed just around the corner from the station. Great memories of a time gone bye. Always seemed to end up covered in ash from leaning out of the carriage window. Too young to ride on the footplate though.

[Il Grifone]

The cream looks just that on my monitor without any hint of lemon.

 

Being too young to remember the actual colour - I did see the livery in the eraly fifties, but under several years of grime. It was on a diesel railcar set so probably still the original paint which was applied during wartime. I was only a few years old at the time...

 

The cream came from originally varnished (copal?) white which would have given a slight yellowish tint, without going completely into yellow as implied by 'lemon'.

 

Likewise the 'whiskers' were cream rather than yellow.

 

Distant memories of course....

 

'Handfuls' of pigment mixed into white lead is not going to provide great consistency of colour.

Edited June 9, 2017 by Il Grifone

[cncmodeller]

Thanks for the replies, I've had some success in sorting out this colour, I ordered the actual suppliers GWR Cream paint from Craftmaster and it is as i saw quite yellow with a faint hint of green giving it a bit of a lemon shade. I had a look at my digital photos and film from the VOR last weekend and looking at them you would never believe that it was this shade at all it just looks like common or garden pale cream in the photos.

The colour is more akin to the colour of salad cream, I will update this info if I can get my hands on a RAL chart.

The paint by the way is gloss coach enamel and goes on beautifully smooth [ no need to spray ]and does actually dry unlike a lot of gloss paints these days.

 

Graham

[NorthBrit]

If I may say my ten pence worth for anyone wishing to have the 'correct' colour when painting coaches and or engines. I know from memory that LNER teak coaches in very early British Railways times were various shades of colour. This was caused by different things. When the paint was being mixed I doubt two tins were the same. lol

 

As Ian Kirk on #7 mentions vehicles can and did fade in the sunlight, therefore you could see a rake of coaches in various shades of teak. I am sure the same occurred on GWR and other rail companies.

 

Painting model coaches imho should be approached in the manner, if it looks right it is.

[Bernard Lamb]

Thanks for the replies, I've had some success in sorting out this colour, I ordered the actual suppliers GWR Cream paint from Craftmaster and it is as i saw quite yellow with a faint hint of green giving it a bit of a lemon shade. I had a look at my digital photos and film from the VOR last weekend and looking at them you would never believe that it was this shade at all it just looks like common or garden pale cream in the photos.

The colour is more akin to the colour of salad cream, I will update this info if I can get my hands on a RAL chart.

The paint by the way is gloss coach enamel and goes on beautifully smooth [ no need to spray ]and does actually dry unlike a lot of gloss paints these days.

 

Graham

Don't bother with a RAL chart as there is nothing anywhere near what you need.

My screen is quite good in respect of colour and I am checking against a printed chart I had from my working days when I used to check paint finish. You are correct about the lemonish tinge. Nothing near on the two BS charts either so I can't come up with a suggestion.

Bernard