chrisf Posted September 17, 2017 Share Posted September 17, 2017 OK, here goes - Chrisf on Russell. If I were to post a list of all the errors in "A pictorial record of Great Western coaches, part II, 1903 - 1948" by J H Russell [OPC, 1973, original price £4.80!], Andy Y would need to buy a new server. By no means every type of coach built in that period is represented either by photograph or outline drawing. Jim Russell tended to focus on the more exotic coaches. Thus the coverage of the 1935 Centenary stock is lavish and that of more workaday vehicles patchy to non-existent. Let us apply the shorthand Russell II. All is not lost. Another book, "Great Western coaches appendix, Vol 1, standard passenger stock" [OPC, 1981, reprinted 2000, cover price £29.99] fills in many of the gaps but not all. Instead of arranging the coaches in more or less chronological order, the appendix lists the stock alphanumerically by diagram, covering Axx [first class], Cxx [third class], Dxx [brake thirds] and Exx [composites]. Diagrams Fxx to infinity are covered by volume 2 of the appendix. Of the coaches on Holmside's list of those absent from the index to Russell II, the following are illustrated in the appendix: C63, C66, D109 - drawing as well! -, D132, E147 and E166. The only one missing is D110. These appear to be camera-shy. Even the RCTS has no example in its wide ranging photographic archive, despite what the listing tells us. Caution is advised. The C63 illustrated in plate 97 on page 38 is said to be in strawberry and cream. Not with double lining it isn't. Despite the date of the pic being 1952 that coach is still in chocolate and cream. On what appears to be page 148 plate 374 shows a brake composite to diagram E140. Next to it in plate 375 is another brake composite but to diagram E157. What a silly place to put it. Examples of E147 appear on pages 152 and 153. Returning to Russell II, there is a drawing of D109 on page 149 but beware: the end elevation is wrong. The correct profile is on page 185 alongside the drawing of corridor third C64, handily illustrated by a photo of a C67 which had a different profile and window layout. Do you see what I mean by badly edited? Take my word for it, there are other clangers but they will have to keep for now. Chris Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Holmside Posted September 17, 2017 Author Share Posted September 17, 2017 Again, my thanks to all contributors to this thread. I am most definitely staying tuned to Chrisf's efforts concerning the book authored by Russell. I tend to regard this as a standard reference: though the comments recorded here, this view could well be misplaced. If other participants in this thread could cite other works whereby I could develop the capability to identify vehicle diagram-numbers from photographs as, for example Chrisf and Johnster have done, I would be most grateful. As I have mentioned elsewhere on RMweb, it is clear that I should have spent a far greater proportion of my youth observing railway operation/procedure generally (along with carriages and wagons) , rather than simply gawping at the locomotives. Concerning my post of 13th September regarding the photograph I observed at last week's PBR gala, I am currently attempting to identify the source of this illustration. As intimated subsequently in the thread, it seems that I was probably mistaken in identifying the vehicle as a former GWR auto trailer. On a matter connected to this topic of coaching stock in the early to mid 50's, I am intrigued that there have been several references to substantial modifications to former company vehicles. Are there any texts available where photos and drawings are documented ? Also, were there any BR designed loco-hauled non-corridor vehicles used on these services ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Holmside Posted September 17, 2017 Author Share Posted September 17, 2017 I was drafting my reply to Chrisf's post of 11:17 this morning and got distracted. So I didn't spot that he had answered my queries before I posted As a consequence, this seemed like a violation of the principle of causality in physics ! Anyway, many thanks to Chrisf for his efforts in this regard: they are much appreciated. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chrisf Posted September 17, 2017 Share Posted September 17, 2017 As I have mentioned elsewhere on RMweb, it is clear that I should have spent a far greater proportion of my youth observing railway operation/procedure generally (along with carriages and wagons) , rather than simply gawping at the locomotives. Hands up those who can honestly say they did not mis-spend their youth. Anyone? I'm still mis-spending mine ... More seriously, though, there were some BR design suburbans in the Valleys. I am sad enough to have a spreadsheet giving some details because someone else asked me in 2009! Crimson livery unless otherwise stated: 46267. Long underframe second, lined maroon, observed by the 13 year old Chris at Canton sidings February 1962 48028. Short underframe SO[NG], photographed in a set at Cardiff Queen Street March 1960 48053. Long underframe SO[NG], photographed in a set at Cardiff Queen Street March 1960 46130. Short underframe second, strengthening 5 coach set, Cardiff Queen Street, January 1960 46019, 46026. Long underframe seconds, condemned at Treherbert, March 1964, livery not known but possibly lined maroon by then 46002. Long underframe second, condemned at Dowlais Cae Harris, May 1964 46141. Short underframe second, unlined maroon, condemned at Dowlais Cae Harris, May 1964. Whether the condemned coaches were merely dumped at Treherbert and Dowlais is a good question. Some BR standards were in use on the passenger service to Dowlais in its last few months but this may be in addition to the condemned stock. On top of all that, at least one short second was formed into a set which was photographed in May 1958 approaching Cardiff. There are some more sightings of them in sets but never more than one per set. The presence of two SO[NG]s at Queen Street is a puzzle but I have a theory. In March 1960 several of the Cathays dmu sets were on loan to Paddington. Maybe some London loco hauled sets were sent to South Wales in part exchange. We may never know. To reward myself for all this hard work I am now going to slob out and watch the James Bond film on ITV! Chris 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
philip-griffiths Posted September 17, 2017 Share Posted September 17, 2017 Aha! I detect someone who knows a bit about LMS coaches! I am interested, and have been for a great many years, in the example marshalled in the formation of the 2 pm Merthyr - Barry Island in February 1958. Sid Rickard's photo of this working passing Castell Coch was published again in a recent issue of Railway Bylines. The coach is a Period 2 lavatory brake second as modelled by Airfix yonks ago. I want to put the correct number on mine. Keith Jones, who is the current custodian of Sid's photos, made a valiant attempt to find out by blowing up the negative. Sadly all he could tell me was what I already knew, viz that one of the numbers was 2. As we all know, RMweb functions partly on infinite improbability drive. If anyone does know the number of that so-and-so coach, now would be a good time to step forward and tell. I have not forgotten my promise to refresh my memory about what is and isn't in Russell's GWR coach books. Stay tuned. Chris Chris, never seen this picture, I find it strange that an LMS BTL ended up marshalled in Merthyr-Barry workings. There were only ex-LNWR and the off ex-Staffs non-corridor carriages on the Sirhowy/MTA. The rest were ex-LNWR/L&Y corridor or open stock and LMS vestibule stock, so how that 'leaked' to the Taff Vale is strange. unfortunately all the P2 BTLs were numbered 25248-25272. this started me looking back through all my pictures and books and the lack of non-corridor carriages in South Wales after the demise of the 4-wheeled stock is noticeable compared to LMS practice elsewhere. regards Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chrisf Posted September 18, 2017 Share Posted September 18, 2017 Thanks, Philip. Finding an LMS BTL in a Merthyr - Barry set is indeed strange. The photo I mentioned is in Bylines for April 2017 and, before that, in one of the Rickard's Record volumes. Another photo showing what must be the same coach is in John Hodge's Cardiff book, taken a month later. I realise as I type this that perhaps I should be writing to the WRRC newsletter and may well do so in due course. Chris Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
philip-griffiths Posted September 18, 2017 Share Posted September 18, 2017 Thanks, Philip. Finding an LMS BTL in a Merthyr - Barry set is indeed strange. The photo I mentioned is in Bylines for April 2017 and, before that, in one of the Rickard's Record volumes. Another photo showing what must be the same coach is in John Hodge's Cardiff book, taken a month later. I realise as I type this that perhaps I should be writing to the WRRC newsletter and may well do so in due course. Chris Roger Carpenter's photographic collection includes carriages at Tredegar in the late 40s and 50s, so there may be other evidence. I'll ask a friend in the Ulster MRC if they take Bylines. Gerald Davies may be the other person to speak to. He is a member of the WRRC. I lost contact with Gerald during a couple of his house moves. regards Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chrisf Posted September 18, 2017 Share Posted September 18, 2017 Again, thank you, Philip. Before we leave this digression and hand Holmside's thread back to him, I have a grenade to lob. I don't think, on reflection, that the LMS BTL came to the Valleys via the MT&A. I say this because the ex-LMS stock was substantially replaced in 1954 when the Merthyr - Abergavenny service was turned over to auto trains out of Merthyr. Stray coaches turned up all over the place. One of my favourite sightings [not by me, you understand] is that of a Great Eastern corridor coach in the 8.25 am Merthyr - Cardiff General in 1954. There must be something about Merthyr! Chris Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
philip-griffiths Posted September 18, 2017 Share Posted September 18, 2017 Again, thank you, Philip. Before we leave this digression and hand Holmside's thread back to him, I have a grenade to lob. I don't think, on reflection, that the LMS BTL came to the Valleys via the MT&A. I say this because the ex-LMS stock was substantially replaced in 1954 when the Merthyr - Abergavenny service was turned over to auto trains out of Merthyr. Stray coaches turned up all over the place. One of my favourite sightings [not by me, you understand] is that of a Great Eastern corridor coach in the 8.25 am Merthyr - Cardiff General in 1954. There must be something about Merthyr! Chris i know what you mean. Bill Tasker, in one of his books about the Sirhowy, has a picture of a M&GN teak coach in Tredegar. Some of the Abergavenny stock moved to Tredegar before it too was replaced by WR stock. regards Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Holmside Posted September 18, 2017 Author Share Posted September 18, 2017 Er , I'm getting a bit confused by all the TLAs flying about. TLA = Three Letter Acronym BTW [!] First there was Johnster with 'South Wales BLT' , Yesterday there was philip-griffiths: ' cascaded down to the MTA in 1932' and ' Vale of Neath WTT' and 'LMS BTL' ( Ok, even I know the LMS bit, but BTL ? I am assuming that BTL = Brake Third Lavatory, but after being shot down in flames with my presumption concerning the universality of B-sets, I am, as I have indicated before in this thread, markedly averse to making any assumptions at all on this topic. My head's begining to hurt and I am becoming strangely drawn to considering day-time television as an alternative passtime. Please help us ignoramusses ( or at least, this one ....) 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold The Johnster Posted September 18, 2017 RMweb Gold Share Posted September 18, 2017 (edited) Please excuse my blithe assumption that everybody knows everything about acronyms and initial abbreviations, Holmside, it is inconsiderate and rude. BLT is model railway-ese for Branch Line Terminus (though of course applied to a British Rail sandwich it is Bacon, Lettuce, and Tomato). MTA is Merthyr, Tredegar, and Abergavenny, a railway absorbed into the LNWR long before the grouping, and WTT is Working Time Table. You assume correctly about BTL, Brake Third Lavatory. You were not completely wrong, and, I hope, not completely shot down in flames since I was one of those doing the shooting, on the subject of B sets; there were examples of them working in the South Wales Valleys but the norm was for 5 coach sets of non-gangwayed stock, sometimes with strengtheners. South Wales was, in steam days, an intensely operated area of closely neighbouring railways, sometimes 2 or 3 to a valley, all intertwined and interlinked and each with it's own unique history and style. Some compounded the issue by being closely financially and physically linked, like the PTR (Port Talbot Railway) and SWMR (South Wales Mineral Railway) and matters are highly confusing even for some of us who think we are familiar with the area and think we know what we are talking about. Things are indeed desperate if you are considering day time television... Edited September 18, 2017 by The Johnster 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
philip-griffiths Posted September 18, 2017 Share Posted September 18, 2017 (edited) Hi. I've been shot down too regarding B-sets but my knowledge of GWR coaching is poor. Yes. BTL -brake third lavatory. These were LNER acronyms that BR adopted and are used by Jenkinson and Essery in their three volume seminal review of LMS carriages. So T - third, F - first, L lavatory, O - open, C - composite, K - composite, R - restaurant ..... BTO - brake third open, a popular LMS coach in South Wales. BTK - brake third corridor TK - third corridor T - non corridor third. The other TLAs. MTA - Merthyr, Tredegar and Abergavenny line between the former and latter places, ex-LNWR line. WTT - working timetable, not publicaly available, printed and used by railway staff, it lists ECS - empty coaching stock, light engine movements and freight workings. Regards. Edited September 18, 2017 by philip-griffiths Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
br2975 Posted September 19, 2017 Share Posted September 19, 2017 WTT - working timetable, not publicly available, printed and used by railway staff, it lists ECS - empty coaching stock, light engine movements and freight workings. Regards. Wonderful resource(s), especially when read with Weekly Notices (which outlined the running of special trains, extras, their ECS, the composition of those trains and times) and also Special Traffic Notices ( which referred to such things as special trains, additional freight trains, permanent way movements, delivery of coal to signal boxes, the collection of station rubbish, missing rolling stock) . Combined with Carriage Working Notices (CWN), also a separate booklet that used to outline the precise loading of parcels and newspaper van trains Station Working documents. Sectional Appendices and their amendments / updates. I find I spend more time reading such documents than I spend modelling. Brian R Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chrisf Posted September 19, 2017 Share Posted September 19, 2017 (edited) More help for the man who fears [wrongly] that he is an ignoramus: SO[NG] = Second open non-gangwayed (post #29). Until I found the photos taken at Cardiff Queen Street I had supposed fondly that they only ever worked in the London area. Indeed, I recall riding in one in the happy time after Mother had first allowed me to go spotting at Paddington on my own, circa 1958-59. Holmside, do you want to know any more about autos, or anything else for that matter? Chris Edited September 19, 2017 by chrisf 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Holmside Posted September 19, 2017 Author Share Posted September 19, 2017 Once again thanks to all for their responses. For me this is a truly fascinating subject but am reminded of (I think) Donald Rumsfeld's remark about there being ( I paraphrase) ' known unknowns and unknown unknowns' and the longer this thread goes on, the more ( for me ) the more unknown unknowns there are and the more interesting the subject becomes. The position also reminds me of the saying in science that if you think the solution is simple, it means that you don't understand the problem. While firmly ( well, fairly firmly) on the GWR/BR(WR) wing of the South Wales valleys side of the hobby, I am intrigued by the statements regarding ex LMS passenger stock being employed in the region (and even former MG & N vehicles !) This aspect has some resonance for me as I recently came across an article ('Caerphilly-A Railway Crossroads' , by Sands TB; pp 719-726 and concluded on p769 of the Railway Magazine, Nov. 1952) which contains a map referring to a Barry Railway scheme dated 1907 - 1909 to link Caerphilly with the Sirhowy valley essentially running parallel to the Rhymney and B&M's Gwernydomen-Waterloo-White Hart halts line and tunnelling between the Rhymney and Sirhowy Valleys ( and with a connection to the B&M) at Machen. Unfortunately, The scheme was never effected, but what an opportunity for a 'might have been' layout running former GWR and ex LMS stock ! 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold The Johnster Posted September 19, 2017 RMweb Gold Share Posted September 19, 2017 Be careful of taking Brian's advice to read WTTs. They are incredibly addictive, and will take over your life! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold The Stationmaster Posted September 19, 2017 RMweb Gold Share Posted September 19, 2017 Wonderful resource(s), especially when read with Weekly Notices (which outlined the running of special trains, extras, their ECS, the composition of those trains and times) and also Special Traffic Notices ( which referred to such things as special trains, additional freight trains, permanent way movements, delivery of coal to signal boxes, the collection of station rubbish, missing rolling stock) . Combined with Carriage Working Notices (CWN), also a separate booklet that used to outline the precise loading of parcels and newspaper van trains Station Working documents. Sectional Appendices and their amendments / updates. I find I spend more time reading such documents than I spend modelling. Brian R It could be even more fun writing them (It's also quite interesting, but dangerously addictive, to spend some time unearthing errors in them.) 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold The Johnster Posted September 19, 2017 RMweb Gold Share Posted September 19, 2017 It could be even more fun writing them (It's also quite interesting, but dangerously addictive, to spend some time unearthing errors in them.) I'm sure there were never any errors in the ones you wrote, Mike, though there may have been things that were 'differently correct'. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
br2975 Posted September 19, 2017 Share Posted September 19, 2017 Don't know if this link will work ? https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=1907490222905556&set=g.1481784582093228&type=1&theater&ifg=1 Brian R Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chrisf Posted September 20, 2017 Share Posted September 20, 2017 It does, Brian. Thank you. There used to be a Tuesdays Only working between Tredegar and Abergavenny and I'm wondering if it is that which is shown in the photograph. Chris Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
philip-griffiths Posted September 20, 2017 Share Posted September 20, 2017 While firmly ( well, fairly firmly) on the GWR/BR(WR) wing of the South Wales valleys side of the hobby, I am intrigued by the statements regarding ex LMS passenger stock being employed in the region (and even former MG & N vehicles !) This aspect has some resonance for me as I recently came across an article ('Caerphilly-A Railway Crossroads' , by Sands TB; pp 719-726 and concluded on p769 of the Railway Magazine, Nov. 1952) which contains a map referring to a Barry Railway scheme dated 1907 - 1909 to link Caerphilly with the Sirhowy valley essentially running parallel to the Rhymney and B&M's Gwernydomen-Waterloo-White Hart halts line and tunnelling between the Rhymney and Sirhowy Valleys ( and with a connection to the B&M) at Machen. Unfortunately, The scheme was never effected, but what an opportunity for a 'might have been' layout running former GWR and ex LMS stock ! Yes the Barry liked stealing other companies' trade :-) The proposal to burrow under Machen Mountain was advantageous to colliery owners as it provided an outlet for coal going to the Severn channel ports that by-passed the Golden Mile - the line through Lord Tredegar's estate in Newport which resulted in a levy to the Tredegar estate for every ton transited. It would have been a freight line but if it had been built whether it would have survived that long is debatable. There Barry Railway line across the Rhymney - Llanbradach viaduct - was closed and the viaduct demolished pre-war. The GWR also investigated building a 'Tredegar Park' avoiding line by taking a line from Risca through the hill to the Eastern Valleys line. There was a fair bit of surveying work undertaken before it was finally abandoned. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
philip-griffiths Posted September 20, 2017 Share Posted September 20, 2017 It does, Brian. Thank you. There used to be a Tuesdays Only working between Tredegar and Abergavenny and I'm wondering if it is that which is shown in the photograph. Chris Love to see the photo. The Tuesday only workings were mainly to bring people to the Abergavenny market which was and continues to be held on a Tuesday, though the livestock has now been moved to Bryngwyn. The train also served as a working by which locos could be switched between Tredegar and Abergavenny for maintenance schedules. regards Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
br2975 Posted September 21, 2017 Share Posted September 21, 2017 Love to see the photo. The Tuesday only workings were mainly to bring people to the Abergavenny market which was and continues to be held on a Tuesday, though the livestock has now been moved to Bryngwyn. The train also served as a working by which locos could be switched between Tredegar and Abergavenny for maintenance schedules. regards Two photos of 40145 at Gilwern, and Abergavenny Junction during the 1950s . Both photos are by David Bowen, from Malcolm Lewis' collection . If you want more.............. you will need to join a certain FB Group. . Brian R 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Penrhos1920 Posted September 22, 2017 Share Posted September 22, 2017 Here's a 1962 photo of a B set at Ystrad in 1962, hopefully Chris can id the coaches. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chrisf Posted September 22, 2017 Share Posted September 22, 2017 2x E147. Chris Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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