Marches Line & 1936 WTT questions

[Fleetfoot Mike]

To my not inconsiderable delight, I just found an online copy of a GWR WTT covering the Shrewsbury/Hereford joint line from 1936. Obligingly, the GWR also note when LMS services are running as well. 

 

Questions:

 

I note in several places services listed as 'Joint Goods' or 'Joint Passenger'. Which company would have run those? whose stock etc?

I'm also working on the assumption that services that appear to stop at Craven Arms but are noted as 'To Swansea' are headed off down the Central Wales line. Interestingly some of these are also marked 'Joint'!

Also: were GWR locos stabled at the LMS shed at Craven Arms at all in this era?

Edited January 13, 2018 by Fleetfoot Mike

[Brassey]

To my not inconsiderable delight, I just found an online copy of a GWR WTT covering the Shrewsbury/Hereford joint line from 1936. Obligingly, the GWR also note when LMS services are running as well. 

 

Questions:

 

I note in several places services listed as 'Joint Goods' or 'Joint Passenger'. Which company would have run those? whose stock etc?

I'm also working on the assumption that services that appear to stop at Craven Arms but are noted as 'To Swansea' are headed off down the Central Wales line. Interestingly some of these are also marked 'Joint'!

Also: were GWR locos stabled at the LMS shed at Craven Arms at all in this era?

 

I model the same line but in pre-grouping days so my comments are gleaned from that perspective and might not apply to 1936; however:

 

Joint Passenger is a bit vague but you need to refer to a marshalling diagram to determine the make-up of each train.  Local trains were either complete GWR or LNWR stock.  It was not unknown for the other company's locos to haul these, and there is picture evidence, but generally a GWR loco would pull a GWR train etc.  The split was about 50/50 but my interest is in Hereford where the balance of the trains were GWR but North of Craven Arms then the LNWR would have had more.  The working timetable or appendix sometimes shows which company's loco pulled a train because it schedules what time a loco had to leave Shrewsbury shed.  

 

Joint also refers to the ticketing as you could get on a joint train with either a GWR or LNWR ticket but some LNWR trains would not accept GWR tickets.  So to Craven Arms was joint but beyond on the Central Wales line was pure LNWR.

 

Joint Express Passenger trains in pre-grouping were a mixture of stock including WCJS and in one instance Caledonian.  Again a Marshalling Diagram defines the make-up but these are far rarer these days than WTT's

 

Joint Goods does not appear in pre-grouping WTT's so not aware of this.  A lot of the goods trains on the line were fast freights which were often named trains belonging to one company or the other.

 

LNWR facilities at Craven Arms were primarily for the Central Wales service.

 

There is a reprint of a 1933 Sectional Appendix to the Working Time Tables for the joint line.  You might find that useful if you can get hold of a copy. Published by Avon-Anglia 1987

 

Hope this helps.

Edited January 18, 2018 by Brassey

[Brassey]

This is in the LNWR Society archives according to the catalogue on their website:

 

TTW452 LNWR/GWR Jt. Working Timetable Shrewsbury to Hereford, Welshpool, Wellington and Birkenhead to Manchester.Oct 1923. 

 

Unfortunately no LMS period Marshalling Circulars

[Hesperus]

Don't forget that GWR locos would be terminating at Craven Arms from Much Wenlock services.

[Fleetfoot Mike]

Belated followup questions, having I think finally settled on '34 as the date for the layout (keep that shirtbutton out of my sight ), and actually managed to get all the currently stashed stock out of storage. It's time, at least, to start filling holes in the loco and coach roster.

 

Having access to shed rosters for the likes of Shrewsbury, Craven Arms. Hereford etc, I'm starting to get a decent feel for what's likely to be seen (Webb coal tanks, Fowler 2-6-4Ts, ex LNWR 0-8-0s, J/D 3Fs, Cauliflowers (please, a R-T-R one, someone?), plus Stars (Shrewsbury seemed very fond of its Stars!), a Saint, 51xx's, even a 56xx, 43xx moguls, a ROD 2-8-0...)

 

Couple of questions - for through (both LMS and GWR) trains from further afield what was likely to be seen, both passenger and freight? Scots? Patriots? Castles? Halls? 

Edited November 20, 2018 by Fleetfoot Mike

[Fleetfoot Mike]

There is a reprint of a 1933 Sectional Appendix to the Working Time Tables for the joint line.  You might find that useful if you can get hold of a copy. Published by Avon-Anglia 1987

 

Bingo! Just found a copy. Thank you for the pointer. 

[Brassey]

Looking at the layout on your website, it is more likely that the signal box would have been at the end of the platform as per Church Stretton and Craven Arms.  It makes it easier for the signalman to see the station (and get in and out the box!)

[Fleetfoot Mike]

That was on my list of things to fix (while trying to keep the various clusters of points off the baseboard joins).

 

I'm still not happy with the goods shed area - the whole crossing with single slip, refuge siding plus loop area making the station long rather than fat fits with most of the stations down the Shrewsbury/Hereford line (and general LMS and GWR practice), but I'm conscious that the goods shed doesn't quite feel right at the moment. Considering putting it on a loop a la Ludlow, or... heh. If I could find my copy of the appropriate volume of Cooke, I'd be better off.

[Fat Controller]

That was on my list of things to fix (while trying to keep the various clusters of points off the baseboard joins).

 

I'm still not happy with the goods shed area - the whole crossing with single slip, refuge siding plus loop area making the station long rather than fat fits with most of the stations down the Shrewsbury/Hereford line (and general LMS and GWR practice), but I'm conscious that the goods shed doesn't quite feel right at the moment. Considering putting it on a loop a la Ludlow, or... heh. If I could find my copy of the appropriate volume of Cooke, I'd be better off.

Which station are you modelling, or is it an amalgam of various locations? I ask as the various R H Clarke volumes of 'Great Western Stations' have several, with both track and signalling drawings.

Volume 1 has Pontrilas, Hereford and Moreton-on-Lugg

Volume 2 has Leominster and Ludlow.

Volume 4 has Church Stretton

[Fleetfoot Mike]

Which station are you modelling, or is it an amalgam of various locations? I ask as the various R H Clarke volumes of 'Great Western Stations' have several, with both track and signalling drawings.

Volume 1 has Pontrilas, Hereford and Moreton-on-Lugg

Volume 2 has Leominster and Ludlow.

Volume 4 has Church Stretton

 

 

It's a fictitious station somewhere near Marsh Brook, with a track plan that owes a fair bit to Bromfield/Onibury. 

[Fleetfoot Mike]

Bingo.

 

Found my copy of RA Cooke section 63, which usefully includes an earlier plan of Church Stretton which looks eminently... ahem... nickable

 

Also found, to my embarrassment, the copies of the Wild Swan '34 GWR shed allocations and Railway Liveries, 1923-47: London, Midland and Scottish Railway I already own, both of which I re-bought last month

[Banger Blue]

 

 

It's a fictitious station somewhere near Marsh Brook, ........

 

 

 

(From your Blog)  Onnybrook Junction will be set between Craven Arms and Marsh Farm Junction: 

 

I thought that sounded a familiar opening, great minds etc etc. Although mine's set almost half a century after yours

 

https://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/96920-stowbury/?p=1811823

 

 

Are you going to be starting a thread in the layout part of RMWeb (if there isn't one already) or just keeping to your Blog?

Edited November 21, 2018 by Banger Blue

[Fleetfoot Mike]

I thought that sounded a familiar opening, great minds etc etc. Although mine's set almost half a century after yours

 

https://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/96920-stowbury/?p=1811823

 

 

Are you going to be starting a thread in the layout part of RMWeb (if there isn't one already) or just keeping to your Blog?

 

 

Heh. Cool. I've gone for a slightly different approach in that my fiction has it that Much Wenlock branch trains (which at this point are still running ) will still terminate at the bigger Craven Arms and Stokesay (as apart from anything else it has a bay, a big goods yard and loco turning/watering facilities), so Onnybrook Junction is at least in part designed as a 'watch quite a lot of the trains go right on by' kind of affair. 

 

I'll start a thread once I have something physical to show .

[Fleetfoot Mike]

A bit of playing with RailModeller after a browse of Cooke section 63 in my lunch break...

 

Extended the down refuge siding and the up loop, moved the goods shed a bit, got rid of that no-really-good-reason kickback siding, moved the signal box to by the level crossing (which I also just added). Essentially it's a simplified Church Stretton - two versions, the second having a slightly more sprawling goods yard.

 

Up and down are currently changing at a whim I THINK London/Hereford is to the left at present.

 

Comments welcome  I think I prefer the second, as that allows for a cattle dock on the siding just below the goods shed, and (as seems to be relatively common) the iong lower siding to have a set of coal staithes along a good part of its length.

Edited November 21, 2018 by Fleetfoot Mike

[Brassey]

These wayside country stations on the S&H had relatively small goods yards; see my station Berrington and Eye just into Herefordshire which had but one siding and no goods shed!

 

In the working timetable there was only one local goods train a day in each direction.  Bigger towns such as Church Stretton had larger goods facilities with more frequent stopping trains.  At the smaller locations, coal was offloaded directly onto carts without the use of staithes. 

 

However, there would have been around 100 train movements on the line a day so plenty of scope for different stock.

[Fleetfoot Mike]

These wayside country stations on the S&H had relatively small goods yards; see my station Berrington and Eye just into Herefordshire which had but one siding and no goods shed!

 

In the working timetable there was only one local goods train a day in each direction.  Bigger towns such as Church Stretton had larger goods facilities with more frequent stopping trains.  At the smaller locations, coal was offloaded directly onto carts without the use of staithes. 

 

However, there would have been around 100 train movements on the line a day so plenty of scope for different stock.

 

Indeed - I have a 1936 WTT (as mentioned above) which makes interesting reading. I'm still toying a bit between keeping the plan as is, therefore making it a somewhat bigger station than Marsh Brook, and thus getting more local goods trains to stop, as the likes of Church Stretton or Dorrington do, or cutting it down to being, essentially, Marsh Brook.

 

Both are kind of tempting the latter means I get a railway that's a bit more 'set in the landscape' and not rammed with track, the former more operational fun.

[Fleetfoot Mike]

Amusing notes from the 1933 Sectional Appendix:

 

Marsh Brook

Down Local Freight Trains [to Hereford, in other words]

Guards of the down local freight trains must inform the signalman at Church Stretton whether they require to stop at Marsh Brook or not, and whether there are wagons to be detatched: the signalman will inform Marsh Brook accordingly.

 

Up Local Freight Trains attaching Wagons

Wagons to be attached at Marsh Brook to the up local freight trains, must be picked up rough, and taken to Church Stretton to be marshalled there.

 

Shunting Trains

No train must be shunted from one main line to the other at Marsh Brook for another train to pass, excepting in the case of a mishap.

 

So this, according to R A Cooke, is Marsh Brook (consistency in spelling was not a thing!) at the time I'm aiming for.... Up (Church Stretton/Shrewsbury) is to the right.

 

The kickback siding alongside the platform appears to have been for coal. Makes for interesting shunting!

 

As far as I can see, for a down train, you'd stop short of the crossover, detach the appropriate wagons for the yard, draw forward, then cross over to the up loop and drop them off: wagons for the kickback could be picked up straightaway, wagons for the other siding you'd have to run around by leaving them in the up loop?

 

For an up train, the sensible approach would seem to be to stop short of the up end of the loop: not quite sure how you'd handle shunting the yard....

 

Edited November 23, 2018 by Fleetfoot Mike

[Fleetfoot Mike]

Hrm - looking at https://www.s-r-s.org.uk/html/gwt/S2965.htm there's an up home short of the crossover... Guessing that means an up goods would stop there, uncouple and draw forward what was being dropped off, thereby clearing the section of mainline parallel to the up loop if it needed to run around wagons?

Edited November 23, 2018 by Fleetfoot Mike

[Brassey]

Not too sure how serious you might be about Marshbrook but I would applaud the choice of a real station rather than a fictitious one; it makes research far more interesting.  For starters, at Marshbrook the main station building was on the same side as the signal box.  Diagonally opposite was (still is) the Station Inn.

 

Took this in September:

 

 

 

[Fleetfoot Mike]

Giving it serious thought - the yard looks to be surprisingly interesting to work for only 5 points and a single slip (hurry up, Peco!), and the actual station at *almost* real length takes up under 12', which would leave some more space for open countryside.

 

Also, the reason for the fictional name is that it's from Malcom Saville's "Lone Pine" books, and Onnybrook pretty much IS Marshbrook.

[Brassey]

The goods yard is identical to Berrington and Eye apart from the additional siding.  The "loop" at MB was much shorter than you've drawn (more like the SRS drawing) and was not a full loop because it only had trailing access from the up line not facing.  It would be technically possible to run round a few wagons parked on the up line by crossing over to the down over the the slip and then running back again.  This is how I think it operated at B&E.  However, an old signalman who worked the line in the 40's, 50's and 60's, said that operation never happened.  In those days there was only one local goods and it ran past to Woofferton then worked the yard on the way back from the down line.

 

The back siding is not on the SRS signal diagram so one can assume that the point there was worked locally from a lever frame.  I am no expert but, the six other switches would probably only have had 3 levers so they would have worked in tandem and been locked to protect the main line.  I only have 3 electric switches on B&E to work 6 point motors.  Unfortunately you can't read the lever numbers on the SRS lo res drawing.  In pregrouping days, as there were up and down local goods trains, they probably just reversed their wagons into the sidings and they could have been moved later by horse.  90% of wagons delivered to the yard would probably have been coal as was typical on most country wayside stations.  A 10 ton coal wagon would lasted a small village quite a few days.

 

As 98% of trains on the timetable did not go anywhere near the yard, I am becoming less concerned with shunting at B&E.

Edited November 24, 2018 by Brassey

[The Stationmaster]

Hrm - looking at https://www.s-r-s.org.uk/html/gwt/S2965.htm there's an up home short of the crossover... Guessing that means an up goods would stop there, uncouple and draw forward what was being dropped off, thereby clearing the section of mainline parallel to the up loop if it needed to run around wagons?

 

Why?

 

The position of the Home Signal is irrelevant in terms of shunting an Up train because provided it's at danger the yard points would not be locked.  If traffic for Marsh Brook was formed front the train would stop where it was most convenient to cut-off behind the Marsh Brook destined wages and the engine would then draw those wagons forward clear of the connection and set them back into the siding.  The stopping position would be different if the Marsh brook traffic was formed rear but than the shunt might well block the level crossing so having it on the front of an Up train would make more sense plus the position of the station on steep gradients would require the wagons being shunted to be marshalled next to the engine.

 

In view of the steep gradients it was no wonder that 'shunting across the road' was normally prohibited. 

[Fleetfoot Mike]

Why?

 

The position of the Home Signal is irrelevant in terms of shunting an Up train because provided it's at danger the yard points would not be locked.  If traffic for Marsh Brook was formed front the train would stop where it was most convenient to cut-off behind the Marsh Brook destined wages and the engine would then draw those wagons forward clear of the connection and set them back into the siding.  The stopping position would be different if the Marsh brook traffic was formed rear but than the shunt might well block the level crossing so having it on the front of an Up train would make more sense plus the position of the station on steep gradients would require the wagons being shunted to be marshalled next to the engine.

 

In view of the steep gradients it was no wonder that 'shunting across the road' was normally prohibited. 

 

Ah - I was hoping the Voice Of Signalling Wisdom would show up

 

Many thanks for the insight - slowly getting my head around proper prototype practice.

[Fleetfoot Mike]

The "loop" at MB was much shorter than you've drawn (more like the SRS drawing) and was not a full loop because it only had trailing access from the up line not facing.

Looking at the old OS map I do indeed appear to have it about twice as long as it should be. It's probably enough to work one or two wagons into the kickback: one wonders if prototypically they'd have been hand/rope/horse shunted?

[Rising Standards]

Living only a few minutes from the location being discussed, this makes for interesting reading. It had crossed my mind that a fictional N&W station influenced by Marsh Brook (the space seems strange!) like you're planning would make a nice 'railway in the landscape' layout, and that putting said station at Marsh Farm Junction would add interest with traffic to and from Much Wenlock joining or leaving the main line. If such a station had existed, perhaps Marsh Brook never would have. I've put this idea on the backburner for now as I could do with a location more suited to my joint WR/SR focused fleet, but I do hope to return to it one day.