1960's Breweries

[Herr_Style]

Quick question. I'm hoping to build a very small O gauge layout based on a brewery. I only have at the moment for rolling stock 5 wagons, a 7 plank open, 2 16t min and 2 Ventilated Vans. I'm going to get a Brake Van and am thinking of a tank wagon, specifically one carrying molasses. This would be used in the production of yeast and as an ingredient for Stout. Would this be a viable wagon for my project? Thanks in advance!

[Edwardian]

I don't know, but it seems that molasses was at least sent to distillers in tank wagons (http://myweb.tiscali.co.uk/gansg/6-livy/odds/9-tankliv.htm):

 

Molasses are used for a range of products, industrial ethyl-alcohol is made by fermenting the stuff then distilling the result. This then gets something nasty such as wood naphtha or pyridine added to try and stop people drinking it (pure alcohol is extremely poisonous), in the case of methylated spirit a violet dye is also added. United Molasses owned a fleet of unfitted rail tanks from the 1930s to the 1970s, These were replaced by larger vacuum braked tanks they hired in (but they carried the UM brand). After TOPS came in (1974) these red tanks had their ends painted blue as shown below.

 

Fig ___ Molasses tank wagons

[34theletterbetweenB&D]

Rather think it depends on the scale of the brewery output. I have no idea how many gallons of Stout would result from a tanker load of several tons of Molasses, but suspect the answer to be 'quite a lot'.  A grain hopper now...

[Joseph_Pestell]

Quick question. I'm hoping to build a very small O gauge layout based on a brewery. I only have at the moment for rolling stock 5 wagons, a 7 plank open, 2 16t min and 2 Ventilated Vans. I'm going to get a Brake Van and am thinking of a tank wagon, specifically one carrying molasses. This would be used in the production of yeast and as an ingredient for Stout. Would this be a viable wagon for my project? Thanks in advance!

 

Breweries don't need to produce yeast. Once they have got it, they continue to use it passing from one batch of beer to the next (unlike wine where the yeast dies and new yeast is used - albeit in very small amounts). Indeed breweries would normally get an excess of yeast and sell it off to be made into Marmite.

 

I have used dark treacle in home-made beer but I don't think that molasses would ever be used in production of stout. And by the 1960s, very few English breweries made stout. It's a modern revival after many decades of domination by the products of Dublin & Park Royal.

Edited June 6, 2018 by Joseph_Pestell

[Andy W]

Breweries don't need to produce yeast. Once they have got it, they continue to use it passing from one batch of beer to the next (unlike wine where the yeast dies and new yeast is used - albeit in very small amounts). Indeed breweries would normally get an excess of yeast and sell it off to be made into Marmite.

 

I have used dark treacle in home-made beer but I don't think that molasses would ever be used in production of stout. And by the 1960s, very few English breweries made stout. It's a modern revival after many decades of domination by the products of Dublin & Park Royal.

I agree, by the 1960s there were just two nationally known brands of stout in the UK, Guinness and Mackeson. The southern half of the UK was supplied with Guinness brewed at Park Royal, London, the northern half with Dublin-brewed Guinness brought across the Irish Sea in the brewery's own seagoing tanker ship. Mackeson was also brewed in London. Some local and regional breweries had their own-label brands of stout still, declining rapidly as breweries amalgamated and production was concentrated on fewer sites. To the best of my knowledge none of them used molasses as an ingredient, preferring to use barley malted to a very very dark colour (known as chocolate malt for the colour, not the flavour), and occasionally caramel. Products described as Milk Stout, Oatmeal Stout, or Oyster Stout hint at other ingredients but these were sold to a rapidly declining and elderly clientele, it wasn't fashionable then.

Most stout sold in mainland UK was in bottles rather than draught at this period, and Guinness subcontracted their bottling to a number of regional breweries who took delivery in road tankers or originally rail tankers, the bottled Guinness then used the regional breweries' distribution systems to reach pubs and off-licences. Park Royal was very much rail connected and at one time stout was despatched from there in rail tankers for bottling. It would be possible to say that this continued for Herr_Style's brewery.

The Dublin-brewed stout mostly came into Liverpool Docks, very much rail-connected too, so if the model brewery is meant to be in Northern England rail tankers might still work. I can't remember what the arrangements were for Scottish distribution.

[Joseph_Pestell]

I agree, by the 1960s there were just two nationally known brands of stout in the UK, Guinness and Mackeson. The southern half of the UK was supplied with Guinness brewed at Park Royal, London, the northern half with Dublin-brewed Guinness brought across the Irish Sea in the brewery's own seagoing tanker ship. Mackeson was also brewed in London. Some local and regional breweries had their own-label brands of stout still, declining rapidly as breweries amalgamated and production was concentrated on fewer sites. To the best of my knowledge none of them used molasses as an ingredient, preferring to use barley malted to a very very dark colour (known as chocolate malt for the colour, not the flavour), and occasionally caramel. Products described as Milk Stout, Oatmeal Stout, or Oyster Stout hint at other ingredients but these were sold to a rapidly declining and elderly clientele, it wasn't fashionable then.

Most stout sold in mainland UK was in bottles rather than draught at this period, and Guinness subcontracted their bottling to a number of regional breweries who took delivery in road tankers or originally rail tankers, the bottled Guinness then used the regional breweries' distribution systems to reach pubs and off-licences. Park Royal was very much rail connected and at one time stout was despatched from there in rail tankers for bottling. It would be possible to say that this continued for Herr_Style's brewery.

The Dublin-brewed stout mostly came into Liverpool Docks, very much rail-connected too, so if the model brewery is meant to be in Northern England rail tankers might still work. I can't remember what the arrangements were for Scottish distribution.

 

I don't think Oyster Stout had oysters in it. You were supposed to drink it when eating oysters.

[doilum]

I agree with the grain wagon. As a student, I worked at a maltkilns in 1975 &76. The rail siding was disused and enquiries revealed that Guinness were the last big rail contract but they had switched to road in 1970.

As an aside, we took an 0815 breakfast break and would throw open the railside doors and enjoy some fresh air to go with the milk and kitkat. To my great delight on one Monday in 1975, a class 47 came by hauling the most amazing collection of vintage wagons and coaches with an odd steam loco thrown in for good measure. These were all Shildon bound for the 150 celebrations. This parade was repeated each day that week. Happy days.

[APOLLO]

Back in the late 70's Guinness had a depot in Runcorn.   A small ship would  dock nearby on the Manchester Ship Canal and unload into waiting road tankers. Once at the depot it was bottled / casked and distributed.

 

https://www.flickr.com/photos/34793333@N02/5503945438/

 

Later in the 80's / 90's Guinness was transported by rail to a depot in Salford from Park Royal London

 

Brit15

[doilum]

Quick question. I'm hoping to build a very small O gauge layout based on a brewery. I only have at the moment for rolling stock 5 wagons, a 7 plank open, 2 16t min and 2 Ventilated Vans. I'm going to get a Brake Van and am thinking of a tank wagon, specifically one carrying molasses. This would be used in the production of yeast and as an ingredient for Stout. Would this be a viable wagon for my project? Thanks in advance!

Look for a "shorter" brakevan. The ex LNER toad E will save a good inch of precious siding

[Andy W]

I don't think Oyster Stout had oysters in it. You were supposed to drink it when eating oysters.

It appears that the recipe used oyster shells (after the actual oysters had been eaten) as a refining agent to help the beer to "drop bright" and avoid a yeast haze. Other beers used an extract from fish bladders. Nowadays some brewers put whole oysters in their recipes for Oyster Stout, but this is really not traditional at all.

[Joseph_Pestell]

It appears that the recipe used oyster shells (after the actual oysters had been eaten) as a refining agent to help the beer to "drop bright" and avoid a yeast haze. Other beers used an extract from fish bladders. Nowadays some brewers put whole oysters in their recipes for Oyster Stout, but this is really not traditional at all.

 

Interesting. Speaking from the perspective of a winemaker, I would not have thought that oyster shells, even if finely crushed, would work as a fining agent.

 

But back on topic, it gives another potential wagon for the layout.

Edited June 6, 2018 by Joseph_Pestell

[Wickham Green]

 Nowadays some brewers put whole oysters in their recipes for Oyster Stout, ......

What a way to go ! - rather like being drowned in a barrel of Malmsey I guess...................... and far more enjoyable than being swallowed alive !

[Joseph_Pestell]

What a way to go ! - rather like being drowned in a barrel of Malmsey I guess...................... and far more enjoyable than being swallowed alive !

I don't get the thing for eating them raw. Much nicer cooked.

[Herr_Style]

So for 39 pounds, I decided to get one anyway. I suspect that I will either have my Brewery make a special "East Anglian Stout", or the Brewery has a name of " Norfolk Brewery and Agrochemicals Ltd" lol. Thanks Edwardian for the web link, and thanks everyone for the input. I think the last wagon to get will be a shortish wheelbased Toad E brake van. Thanks all!

[Herr_Style]

I currently have a Class 15, and of course an 08 (well,two, I got one in Blue as well!). I just need to find the brake van kit. Oh, and I need to start building the thing too!

[Owd Sweedy]

I am building a brewery layout with a buddy of mine here in Ottawa and have done some research on this. I found for inbound traffic you would need, covered vans for malted barley and for hops, open wagons for coal, timber to the cooperage for repairs or new casks, and for returning empty casks for washing out and reuse.

Out going traffic would be vans or opens for full casks, either to a bottling plant (off site), or to an ale stores before distribution. Ash from boilers and a loco shed, if you have one,  spent grains to a cattle feed manufacturer and empty coal wagons returning to their collieries.

Depending on the size of the brewery there could even be internal traffic movements. Malt from the maltings to the brewhouse. Barrels from cask washery to brewhouse. Filled casks from brewhouse to ale store, hops from hop store to brewhouse and coal from coal storage to where needed. etc.

I like the idea of an East Anglian Stout but would prefer Adnams or even Abbot Ale :-)

Edited June 7, 2018 by Owd Sweedy

[Wickham Green]

 

Depending on the size of the brewery there could even be internal traffic movements. Malt from the maltings to the brewhouse. Barrels from cask washery to brewhouse. Filled casks from brewhouse to ale store, hops from hop store to brewhouse and coal from coal storage to where needed. etc.

 

I think you're working more on the lines of a BIG brewery there .......... a big brewery called Burton ! 

[doilum]

Look out for an affordable source of barrels and sacks, you will need lots. A working wagon turntable could provide access to several buildings in a small space.

Sadly very few small breweries survived into the blue diesel era, with or without rail access. This was the worst time for quality beer.

Now, if you were to turn the clock back another 50 years, you have a perfect stage for a Manning Wardle or Hudswell Clarke with handful of carefully chosen Powsides wagons.

[HonestTom]

I am building a brewery layout with a buddy of mine here in Ottawa and have done some research on this. I found for inbound traffic you would need, covered vans for malted barley and for hops, open wagons for coal, timber to the cooperage for repairs or new casks, and for returning empty casks for washing out and reuse.

Out going traffic would be vans or opens for full casks, either to a bottling plant (off site), or to an ale stores before distribution. Ash from boilers and a loco shed, if you have one,  spent grains to a cattle feed manufacturer and empty coal wagons returning to their collieries.

Depending on the size of the brewery there could even be internal traffic movements. Malt from the maltings to the brewhouse. Barrels from cask washery to brewhouse. Filled casks from brewhouse to ale store, hops from hop store to brewhouse and coal from coal storage to where needed. etc.

I like the idea of an East Anglian Stout but would prefer Adnams or even Abbot Ale :-)

 

Many breweries also had horses for local deliveries (Young's retained them into the 1990s), so that means you've got feed coming in, manure going out and even an excuse for the odd horse box. And then there were odd loads like machinery. Basically, a brewery offers an insane range of traffic for a small space. I keep thinking I'd like to do one myself. Maybe one with an internal narrow gauge railway, a la Guinness... 

[Joseph_Pestell]

By the 1960s, I am struggling to think of any small breweries that would be rail connected. East Anglia, Norfolk in particular, had become something of a "beer desert" - not alleviated until Woodforde's came along.

 

At Lichfield, there was a brewery right by the station - but not rail connected afaik.

 

Perhaps the better option would be to model a small part of the complex rail network in Burton.

[ISW]

By the 1960s, I am struggling to think of any small breweries that would be rail connected. East Anglia, Norfolk in particular, had become something of a "beer desert" - not alleviated until Woodforde's came along.

 

At Lichfield, there was a brewery right by the station - but not rail connected afaik.

 

Perhaps the better option would be to model a small part of the complex rail network in Burton.

Since there was over 20 breweries in Burton at one time, there must be scope for modelling one of the smaller enterprises?

 

Ian