Replica Coaches?

[Joseph_Pestell]

I don't think underframes would be difficult to construct to whatever length was needed. One might recover Mk1 BR bogies to run under them.

[coachmann]

I don't think underframes would be difficult to construct to whatever length was needed. One might recover Mk1 BR bogies to run under them.

You might think so.  A sound ready made underframe would be a major money saver. Cosmetic trussing could be added the make the coaches look GWR or LMS.

Edited June 28, 2018 by coachmann

[Arun Sharma]

Apart from the early Underground stock circa 1905, which were steel framed and bodied, there were also L&Y 1200vDC EMUs operating between Manchester-Bury that were built around 1905 and were steel framed and bodied. They lasted in service until replaced by the class 504 in the ?late 50s.

Edited June 28, 2018 by ted675

[Marshall5]

You might think so.  A sound ready made underframe would be a major money saver. Cosmetic trussing could be added the make the coaches look GWR or LMS.

Recovered underframes from Mk1 BG's would possibly suit as they were 57' as against 64' for the passenger carrying stock.  There are certainly plenty of them around in various states of disrepair.  I'd still rather see more of the genuine articles restored before we go down the new-build route.  I seem to remember one of the well known carriage restorers state that it is actually easier to maintain stock with wooden framed bodies than Mk1's.

Ray.

[PatB]

You mean your layout will only have MK1 coaches painted in pre BR liveries and some cases pre Grouping liveries as well, as this is what it sounds like you want for the Heritage Railways to have.  

 

Well, it worked for Lima .

 

Seriously though, I think I'd rather see a reasonably plausible "in the spirit of" heritage coach than no heritage coach at all, which might be the other realistic option. Given that Mk1s are plentiful, (presumably) cheap, mostly not terribly historically significant, and well understood by the heritage railway community it would make sense to use them as a basis for such beasties.

 

As noted upthread, however, the economics of new build coaches are problematical. Mk1s offer designs like the TSO that are pretty much ideal for the bread and butter operations of a heritage line, which, I would guess, are what pay the bills. Replica or restored older designs of coach, while nice for the enthusiast, probably won't extract much more cash from Joe and Josephine Public than the existing Mk1 stock. I suspect that, as long as the coaching stock is reasonably cosmetically clean, smart and not modern, the effect on revenue for most of the year would be minimal. Where such builds would come into their own would be for special events aimed specifically at the enthusiast, and, as noted upthread, for film and TV work (if there are any producers out there who care enough and don't have access to CGI).

 

For myself, I'd like to see something significantly different.Much Big 4 stock is a sufficiently close ancestor of the Mk1 that the "feel" will be much the same. So what about some proper 4 and 6 wheelers (no, not rebodied CCTs, although I do also applaud those efforts) or some clerestory coaches. However, that's me speaking as a (not fanatical) enthusiast who probably isn't worth that much, financially, to the heritage railway movement.

 

I don't know if anyone's done it, but a replica Pullman dining car might be useful. As well as use on prestigious dining trains such a coach could also serve as a proper static restaurant whilst not in operation, offering another revenue stream for a railway.

[AMJ]

If you are thinking of the original USA styled Pullman coaching stock that operated on the Midland Railway one body was destroyed by an arsonist at Butterley the other year. They do have a poor body located on a chassis at Swanwick Junction.

 

See the following

http://www.cs.vintagecarriagestrust.org/se/CarriageInfo.asp?Ref=2201

 

http://www.cs.vintagecarriagestrust.org/se/CarriageInfo.asp?Ref=2202

[Reorte]

For the journey. For the views. Because it was in a film. Because it was on television. For a meal. Just to kill a few hours. There are loads of reasons why people go to heritage railways.

 

It was estimated that something like 90% of visitors to heritage railways aren't enthusiasts. I can't remember the source though. But that seems about right.

 

 

It's certainly not for nostalgic reasons. You have to be over 60 to really remember steam, yet many visitors I see are young families whose dads don't even remember steam.

Point taken for the rest, although in a sense you can be nostalgic for something you can't remember. Or maybe that's just being an enthusiast; I was born after steam ended and my main reason for visiting preserved railways.

[royaloak]

I thought the Dart Valley incident was to do with someone "not in the know" unlocking the door and not checking it when it was "out of use". In other words, human error rather than the state of the stock. The rest of the carriage was fine and the lavatory was under repair so was closed off.

It should not have been possible to open the door, it had not been secured properly so the fault rests with the railway.

Edited June 28, 2018 by royaloak

[Joseph_Pestell]

Well, it worked for Lima .

 

Seriously though, I think I'd rather see a reasonably plausible "in the spirit of" heritage coach than no heritage coach at all, which might be the other realistic option. Given that Mk1s are plentiful, (presumably) cheap, mostly not terribly historically significant, and well understood by the heritage railway community it would make sense to use them as a basis for such beasties.

 

As noted upthread, however, the economics of new build coaches are problematical. Mk1s offer designs like the TSO that are pretty much ideal for the bread and butter operations of a heritage line, which, I would guess, are what pay the bills. Replica or restored older designs of coach, while nice for the enthusiast, probably won't extract much more cash from Joe and Josephine Public than the existing Mk1 stock. I suspect that, as long as the coaching stock is reasonably cosmetically clean, smart and not modern, the effect on revenue for most of the year would be minimal. Where such builds would come into their own would be for special events aimed specifically at the enthusiast, and, as noted upthread, for film and TV work (if there are any producers out there who care enough and don't have access to CGI).

 

For myself, I'd like to see something significantly different.Much Big 4 stock is a sufficiently close ancestor of the Mk1 that the "feel" will be much the same. So what about some proper 4 and 6 wheelers (no, not rebodied CCTs, although I do also applaud those efforts) or some clerestory coaches. However, that's me speaking as a (not fanatical) enthusiast who probably isn't worth that much, financially, to the heritage railway movement.

 

I don't know if anyone's done it, but a replica Pullman dining car might be useful. As well as use on prestigious dining trains such a coach could also serve as a proper static restaurant whilst not in operation, offering another revenue stream for a railway.

 

Not just Lima, Triang-Hornby and Hornby have been serial offenders.

 

Bulleids, Staniers, Hawksworths, Colletts and Thompsons would all be easy enough to replicate. But I take your point about them not being different enough to the Mk1. Intrinsically, I don't see why it would not be possible to replicate older vehicles. As already pointed out, the narrow-gauge railways have done it.

 

The point of my thread is that on a number of railways (including the otherwise fine WSR), the Mk1s are looking very worn. So need either money spending on them or an alternative.

 

A very good point there about the Pullman. Much easier to construct a new build vehicle to modern catering standards than adapt an old one.

[Invicta]

Apologies for inadvertently duplicating a theme. I tend not to follow threads about TV programmes.

 

I take the point about Mk1 coaches being perfectly suitable in many ways for preservation/tourist railways. But many are in severe need of work if they are to continue in service.

 

Is it better to put money into them or to recreate (albeit with many short cuts) earlier steel-bodied coaches? We enthusiasts might not like them but that 90% of non-enthusiast travellers would be better served.

 

Although I'd certainly like to see more pre-nationalisation stock in use, I wonder whether spending money on converting Mk1's to create not-particularly-authentic replicas really is the way ahead, in comparison to putting money into restoring both original grouping-era coaches, and Mk1s. Let's not forget that Mk1's are now around 60 years old and arguably  'historic' in their own right, and to my mind equally deserving of seeing effort going into their preservation and restoration.

 

Someone mentioned earlier in the thread that most preserved lines are branches, and so never saw Mk1s in period- the same arguably applies to much of the motive power seen on them. I probably get to the Great Central at least 2-3 times a year at present, so have experienced a fair number of their Mk1's (maroon, blood & custard and WR choc/cream), and they've never struck me as looking anything but appropriate in the GCR's 'main line' context behind BR-liveried steam.

 

On the other hand, when I was there for the winter steam gala a few months back, they probably did stick out like a sore thumb behind the visiting grouping-liveried B12 and Crab, especially when you compare the combination of B12 and the SVR's LNER teaks when 8572 visited the Severn Valley for their spring gala a couple of months later!

Edited June 30, 2018 by Invicta

[coachmann]

Although I'd certainly like to see more pre-nationalisation stock in use, I wonder whether spending money on converting Mk1's to create not-particularly-authentic replicas really is the way ahead, in comparison to putting money into restoring both original grouping-era coaches, and Mk1s. 

But where are you going to get all there original pre-grouping coaches.....?  The SVR was snapping up 'Big Four' Stanier and Collett coaches and storing them even before they got hold of much of their present line, as I think BR had decided to clear all pre-1948 designs off its roster in 1972.  Pre-grouping coaches were as rare as hens teeth by then of course as most had left passenger use by 1959 and so were departmental's stripped of much of their interiors and windows. LNWR corridor coaches were still extant as Camping Coaches until 1972. I helped scrap and burn a few.  Llangollen has some GWR pre-1923 corridor Toplight coaches on Fishbelly bogies, but they would soak up the £££'s if restoration commenced.

Edited June 30, 2018 by coachmann

[Joseph_Pestell]

But where are you going to get all there original pre-grouping coaches.....?  The SVR was snapping up 'Big Four' Stanier and Collett coaches and storing them even before they got hold of much of their present line, as I think BR had decided to clear all pre-1948 designs off its roster in 1972.  Pre-grouping coaches were as rare as hens teeth by then of course as most had left passenger use by 1959 and so were departmental's stripped of much of their interiors and windows. LNWR corridor coaches were still extant as Camping Coaches until 1972. I helped scrap and burn a few.  Llangollen has some GWR pre-1923 corridor Toplight coaches on Fishbelly bogies, but they would soak up the £££'s if restoration commenced.

 

I did not know about those Toplights. Useful if a manufacturer does want to make some.

 

But let me be a real philistine for a moment. Take a 57' underframe (either new or from a BG), add some steel framing and sides, and then overlay those sides with fibreglass panels moulded to look like wood panelling (the sort of thing that you saw in pubs in the 80s). The panels could be modular, quite small and easy to produce rather like an Ian Kirk O Gauge kit.

[Invicta]

But where are you going to get all there original pre-grouping coaches.....?  The SVR was snapping up 'Big Four' Stanier and Collett coaches and storing them even before they got hold of much of their present line, as I think BR had decided to clear all pre-1948 designs off its roster in 1972.  Pre-grouping coaches were as rare as hens teeth by then of course as most had left passenger use by 1959 and so were departmental's stripped of much of their interiors and windows. LNWR corridor coaches were still extant as Camping Coaches until 1972. I helped scrap and burn a few.  Llangollen has some GWR pre-1923 corridor Toplight coaches on Fishbelly bogies, but they would soak up the £££'s if restoration commenced.

 

Point taken- Personally I'd much rather see time and money going into restoring and preserving what pre-grouping/'Big Four' stock still does exist, as well as doing quality restorations of Mk1 stock than see resources diverted into cannibalising Mk1s to build pastiches of original pre-48 stock of dubious authenticity.

 

Those Toplights at Llangollen might soak up the £££s if restoration commenced, but if it doesn't, they'll deteriorate to the point that sooner or later someone will have to bite the bullet, decide they're beyond saving and scrap them. I'm probably going to sound horribly purist about this (and I'm very aware here of the fact that I don't put any time or money in of my own, other than as a paying customer), but if the preservation movement would rather spend money on replicas and pastiches than saving the few examples of the genuine article that do survive, then it's in danger of seriously losing it's way...

[coachmann]

Point taken- Personally I'd much rather see time and money going into restoring and preserving what pre-grouping/'Big Four' stock still does exist, as well as doing quality restorations of Mk1 stock than see resources diverted into cannibalising Mk1s to build pastiches of original pre-48 stock of dubious authenticity.

 

Those Toplights at Llangollen might soak up the £££s if restoration commenced, but if it doesn't, they'll deteriorate to the point that sooner or later someone will have to bite the bullet, decide they're beyond saving and scrap them. I'm probably going to sound horribly purist about this (and I'm very aware here of the fact that I don't put any time or money in of my own, other than as a paying customer), but if the preservation movement would rather spend money on replicas and pastiches than saving the few examples of the genuine article that do survive, then it's in danger of seriously losing it's way...

Maybe some of us have had a taste of 'reality' in our long lives, which is why we talk as we do.  Have you ever purchased and restored anything? I have, a 1952 double deck bus. Now that is small fry compared with a 30 ton railway carriage. Those Llangollen Toplights might already be past it........... I don't know as it is 20 years sine I last looked at them.  The first job would be to lift the wooden framed body so thta the chassis could be examined. If it is considered to still have some life in it, cleaning down would start and dismantling. The bogies would require work on them in thier own right and this might ential going to a specialist. The body would probably have broken up during lifting, so it owuld be used solely as a master from which to copy the framework and later on the raised wooden  paneling. Interiors might have to be built and this would be extremely expensive whne one considers sliding doors, wall panelling and seating. Corridor connections? Where does one obtain those?

 

Restoration is no picnic and I am certainly glad I do not have a double deck bus around my neck at this stage of life. Anyone young and interested should make themselves known to one of the carriage groups.  It is not all about money; it is just as much about willing hands, skills and a lot of heavy dirty work. 

Edited June 30, 2018 by coachmann

[coachmann]

Oops wrong thread....

 

 

[Reorte]

I did not know about those Toplights. Useful if a manufacturer does want to make some.

 

But let me be a real philistine for a moment. Take a 57' underframe (either new or from a BG), add some steel framing and sides, and then overlay those sides with fibreglass panels moulded to look like wood panelling (the sort of thing that you saw in pubs in the 80s). The panels could be modular, quite small and easy to produce rather like an Ian Kirk O Gauge kit.

Calling you a philistine for that would be fair enough, but on the other hand when the practical realities come in to play of what might be realistically done you make a good case. I'd rather have genuine but if realistically speaking that's the only way you'll get a half decent approximation to a period it might be worth swallowing. It goes against my ideals, that's for sure, but I can't put my hand on heart and say no to it either when faced with the reality.

[rab]

Not an unreasonable assumption for a heritage railway, why would anyone who isn't at least a bit of an enthusiast even go in the first place?

I suspect if heritage railways relied

on enthusiasts for their income,.they would struggle to even cover day to day running costs, let alone find money to repair/restore stock

[Joseph_Pestell]

Point taken- Personally I'd much rather see time and money going into restoring and preserving what pre-grouping/'Big Four' stock still does exist, as well as doing quality restorations of Mk1 stock than see resources diverted into cannibalising Mk1s to build pastiches of original pre-48 stock of dubious authenticity.

 

Those Toplights at Llangollen might soak up the £££s if restoration commenced, but if it doesn't, they'll deteriorate to the point that sooner or later someone will have to bite the bullet, decide they're beyond saving and scrap them. I'm probably going to sound horribly purist about this (and I'm very aware here of the fact that I don't put any time or money in of my own, other than as a paying customer), but if the preservation movement would rather spend money on replicas and pastiches than saving the few examples of the genuine article that do survive, then it's in danger of seriously losing it's way...

 

It's not that anyone would rather spend money on pastiches than restoring the real thing. My point is that creating some pastiches is a route to enabling the railways to make the money that gives the resources to restore the real thing (and then look after it properly).

[sandwich station]

It's not that anyone would rather spend money on pastiches than restoring the real thing. My point is that creating some pastiches is a route to enabling the railways to make the money that gives the resources to restore the real thing (and then look after it properly).

To make replica coaches would soak up a considerable amount of money. If they have the real thing available, much better to just restore that.

[Compound2632]

Restorations of wooden-bodied vehicles (and, I suspect, the older steel-bodied or steel-panelled vehicles) inevitably involves replacing much of the surviving material with new in any case. Taking the L&B carriages as an example, the amount of original material in each successive carriage has diminished to the point at which No. 5, currently under construction, is treading a very fine line between being a restoration and a replica. But does that matter? The point is that one gets to experience these magnificent carriages in a way which even the very best small-scale modelling can't achieve.

 

The L&B is in an unusual situation compared to most heritage lines in that it is seeking to re-create the railway very much as it existed (within the parameters of being a modern tourist attraction); that includes a well-defined set of rolling stock. Clearly that's not an option for a line like,say, the Mid-Hants, which couldn't handle its current volume of traffic with the quantity and type of stock in use on the line at any earlier period.

 

To get a bit sententious for a Sunday morning, the heritage lines are primarily tourist attractions - they must provide a good family day out to survive - but most of them* have a responsibility as museums to educate as well as entertain. That does mean, to my mind, providing an experience of what it was like to travel by train in an earlier age. 

 

*The Welsh Highland is an example of an exception: it is a new, modern scenic tourist railway operating with modern rolling stock.  

[Zomboid]

 

On the other hand, when I was there for the winter steam gala a few months back, they probably did stick out like a sore thumb behind the visiting grouping-liveried B12 and Crab, especially when you compare the combination of B12 and the SVR's LNER teaks when 8572 visited the Severn Valley for their spring gala a couple of months later!

Doesn't the SVR have a wonderful collection of pre nationalisation carriages? I didn't notice that the time I went... Of the big 4 it's only missing a train from the Southern, but that's pretty well catered for by the Bluebell (and IOW).

 

Mark 1s do the job for most railways, and are worthy of preservation themselves, but it does sadden me when older carriages are neglected, even if the reasons are entirely understandable.

[johnlambert]

Doesn't the SVR have a wonderful collection of pre nationalisation carriages? I didn't notice that the time I went... Of the big 4 it's only missing a train from the Southern, but that's pretty well catered for by the Bluebell (and IOW).

 

Mark 1s do the job for most railways, and are worthy of preservation themselves, but it does sadden me when older carriages are neglected, even if the reasons are entirely understandable.

 

I've travelled on GWR and Stanier coaches on the SVR, the railway even has small plaques on some of the coaches to identify their type.  I'm sure the GWR stock is marshalled into a dedicated train.  The Dart Valley Railway in Devon also has some Collett coaches, I don't know if it was a whole train of them but I definitely travelled in a Collett coach (as confirmed by the guard). 

[Joseph_Pestell]

I am one of those people who worries when a film set in the 1930s has BR Mk1 stock.

 

But it can be worse. Poldark (c1800) had a jet aircraft vapour trail yesterday evening.

[sp1]

I am one of those people who worries when a film set in the 1930s has BR Mk1 stock.

 

But it can be worse. Poldark (c1800) had a jet aircraft vapour trail yesterday evening.

An episode of Foyles War (1940s) shown a few days ago had a beautifully lined SECR loco...

[phil-b259]

I am one of those people who worries when a film set in the 1930s has BR Mk1 stock.

 

But it can be worse. Poldark (c1800) had a jet aircraft vapour trail yesterday evening.

 

Its rather easier to correct such things in post production (a quick bit of video editing would sort that) - but its rather more work to turn a Mk1 / loco / vintage car etc into something else in the same way