MK1 Sleeping Carriage (00)

[37114]

On the basis that Bachmann will only produce a Blue grey MK1 sleeper when I build a model of one, can anybody share their experience of the best way to getting a decent MK1 sleeper? Southern Pride seem to no longer produce a blue grey one, I am not aware of any etched sides, so was looking at possibly getting an old Hornby one and super detailing it with new bogies etc, or does anybody produce some etched overlays I could graft onto a Bachy Mk1. Thoughts?

 

Thanks

 

Rob.

[John M Upton]

A couple of years ago I transplanted the body sides and roof of a Triang/Hornby Mk 1 Sleeper onto the underframe/chassis/ends of a Bachmann Mk 1 which was made a bit easier than it sounds due to the two models (despite being thirty plus years apart) having almost identical construction methods.

 

Took a bit of carvery here and there and a little bit of trial and error (plus scratch building those end box vent things) but it came out all right, just wish I knew what the hell I had done with the two I did after I moved house as I now cannot find the things anywhere!!!

 

Found a picture of one of the ones I did though:

[Il Grifone]

Very nice!

 

There is an issue with the window sizes on Hornby (read Tri-ang) MkIs however.

 

Comet list Mk I sleepers SLS/SLC/SLF (Externally the same - the difference was in the number of berths per compartment.)

 

http://www.cometmode...tpic.php/10/562

['CHARD]

Excellent thread Rob, cheers for starting it; I'm one of the many in the market for these things too. I picked up a bunch of B&G ones of '80s vintage and flogged them when a previous layout had no call for them. At that time, Bachmann's MkIs were but a twinkle in their corporate eye.

 

As a well known Law states, that was a short-sighted move, because I now need a number (>4, <10) for the Waverley Waker and its Up counterpart, and expect the first - Maroon - component of this project to arrive any day now. I don't expect anything worth sharing will emerge from the W/B for some weeks naturally, but when I've cracked it - whichever route I take - I'll blog it accordingly.

 

EDIT: as if by magic, the first coach arrived five minutes after I wrote the above; W2105 Top Link range, mint and will run in this condition as soon as she has a twin, just so I can get the ambience of 1M82 before hacking them about.

[Gwiwer]

An often-overlooked detail with sleeping cars is to remember that the compartment window blinds would be lowered at all times unless the occupants opened them. It was normal to have them closed when the compartment was not in use either being unreserved or before use including ECS workings from yards and depots.

 

Here's a few small mods I undertook on some of mine; very simple but the effect adds to realism not least given the absence of any moulded interiors on these cars.

 

First an older version b/g one which has become a sleeper composite with the addition of a yellow band.

 

 

Then from the current version in maroon showing the incredibly simple technique inside (just don't get glue on the windows themselves!) with cut paper or card. I find the Lima product boxes give something like the right shade of grey which I remember, though I can't model the embossed BR in an oval logo which was featured on them.

 

 

And the effect from the outside which I think makes the appearance more interesting and certainly more realistic.

 

[DavidBelcher]

First an older version b/g one which has become a sleeper composite with the addition of a yellow band.

 

Very handy that the all-first, all-second and compo Mk.1 sleepers used the same bodyside layout - makes things much easier on the modelling front!

 

David

[DavidBelcher]

On the basis that Bachmann will only produce a Blue grey MK1 sleeper when I build a model of one, can anybody share their experience of the best way to getting a decent MK1 sleeper? Southern Pride seem to no longer produce a blue grey one, I am not aware of any etched sides, so was looking at possibly getting an old Hornby one and super detailing it with new bogies etc, or does anybody produce some etched overlays I could graft onto a Bachy Mk1. Thoughts?

 

Thanks

 

Rob.

 

If nothing else, new bogies under the old Hornby Mk.1s will improve things no end; I put a set of Mainline BR1s (plus Jackson metal wheels) under a buffet car and the work is simple yet makes an awful lot of difference to the coach. Likewise proper oval buffers from MJT or similar and adding footboards on the solebar.

 

David

[davidw]

Southern pride do do one in their Etch Master range - I've three in the to do list and another five to get off them. Maroon is an easier finish than blue grey

[mark54]

There is an issue with the window sizes on Hornby (read Tri-ang) MkIs however.

I think the window sizes are OK, correctly featuring reduced depth on all windows on the compartment side, but the shape is wrong and the corners should have a tighter radius.

 

The earlier Tri-ang version is better as it does not feature the fictitious heavy raised window surrounds introduced in the 1970s as part of the Silver Seal range. Hornby retained the raised surround when re-introducing the sleeper in the 1990s, although thankfully not with the chrome effect.

[Bob Reid]

Just as Mark says the corner radius on the windows is wrong - it was made the same as the other mark 1s in the triang/Hornby range - to represent a scale 4" as opposed to a scale 2" radius corner of the prototype.... The (wrong) raised surrounds spoil what would've been an otherwise acceptable model and make the bodylights look bloated. If anyone wants to check them, the corridor bodylights should be h.13.3mm x w.7.3mm and the berth side h.11.5mm x w.7.3mm (in both cases including the toilet bodylight) They also all lack the window bar on the lower part of the berth bodylights - on the sleeper these were in fact droplights not plain glass as modelled.

['CHARD]

That's extremely useful Bob, magic!

 

At least with a small round file the corner rad might be salvageable, and a flat file will take care of the fictitious window frames. The former means new glazing and the latter some repainting but that's a small price to pay. I've managed to find a picture of the duct end, so I'll knock up a batch of half a dozen of these now I've a vehicle to take a datum from.

 

The droplight detail had eluded me, that should be straightforward enough to replicate, and window bars will be a quick-win. I'm looking forward to getting stuck in now; so much so I've just bought the second maroon specimen.

 

If Russell S or Pennine reads this, I'd be grateful for anecdotal support that by 1968 approx 30% of these would have still been running in maroon.

 

I don't suppose anyone knows what the appearance of the full length roof duct is in elevation? As Hornby have rendered it it's more like a clerestory

[mark54]

If anyone wants to check them, the corridor bodylights should be h.13.3mm x w.7.3mm and the berth side h.11.5mm x w.7.3mm (in both cases including the toilet bodylight) They also all lack the window bar on the lower part of the berth bodylights - on the sleeper these were in fact droplights not plain glass as modelled.

Thanks Bob. I have one without the raised surround. Windows measure 13.1mm x 7.9mm and 11.2mm x 7.8mm so they are pretty accurate in size.

 

One other strange feature is the door drop-lights which don't look at all like the BR type but more like LMS Stanier stock.

[Bob Reid]

Chard, there's some good photo's of Mark 1 Sleepers on John Deadman's photo's here (at the bottom of the page);

 

http://jdsrailway-photos.fotopic.net/c1606116.html

 

some of these clearly show the less-than-clerestory-like ventilation duct however if it's dimensions and profile your after Chard, I'll look out the sizes on Wed. Mark will pick me up on this if I've got this wrong , but although the sleepers were outwardly all the same, the SLC had a (for a less than obvious reason I've yet to discover) a ventilation duct shorter than the SLF or SLSTP..... Okay it's a carriage rivet counters point, but at least humour me.

 

I don't know what they did to the models droplights - given the impression of a framed droplight as you say Mark, more akin to something ex-LMS...... They were on the prototype just the "standard" (sic) Mark 1 door dimensionally and should have a plain droplight aperture of h.9.7mm x w.6.3mm but something got lost in the post! The doors themselves look thin! (thanks for checking the dimensions Mark)

 

Note this pic Chard ; http://jdsrailway-photos.fotopic.net/p54716052.html your guys in Big G at Litchurch Lane loved these patches butted onto the bodyside below the berth droplights - I'm blaming them for Hornby's incorrect "framed" version

[mark54]

I don't suppose anyone knows what the appearance of the full length roof duct is in elevation? As Hornby have rendered it it's more like a clerestory

I think the roof duct rendition is quite reasonable.

 

http://web.ukonline.co.uk/53amodels/picture/E2054-MR-070584.jpg

 

Note that on the SLF & SLC that it does not extend as far at the toilet end as on the SLSTP as modelled by Triang/Hornby. It should also angle round to the centre of the roof panel at the non-toilet end, which is not modelled by Triang/Hornby. There are also good photos in Parkin.

[Peter Kazmierczak]

I've a feeling that when Tri-ang originally introduced the Mk1 sleepers, there wasn't a raised moulding around the windows.

 

Was the tooling altered for later batches of the model under Hornby?

['CHARD]

The Derby lunatic fringe were keen on their window-sills, and they certainly created interesting weathering side-effects, as this great shot highlights:

http://jdsrailway-ph.../p54716050.html

 

That's a great resource Bob, I'm feeling quite up for my blue & grey foursome now. Will be using Bachmann roofs and running gear as a basis, so may go on the hunt for demic blue-greys tomorrow. I think Sleepers Models (ibid) will be getting a visit.

I think the roof duct rendition is quite reasonable.

 

http://web.ukonline....4-MR-070584.jpg

 

Note that on the SLF & SLC that it does not extend as far at the toilet end as on the SLSTP as modelled by Triang/Hornby. It should also angle round to the centre of the roof panel at the non-toilet end, which is not modelled by Triang/Hornby. There are also good photos in Parkin.

 

I will see how detachable the duct is, and may mount it on top of a plain Bachmann roof. What upsets me about it as modelled is that it appears you could post things through it into the interior

[Bob Reid]

I've a feeling that when Tri-ang originally introduced the Mk1 sleepers, there wasn't a raised moulding around the windows.

 

Was the tooling altered for later batches of the model under Hornby?

 

There's been a few changes over the years - one of which was the addition of the (wrong) frames to the version as last supplied by Hornby - I'm sure (as was mentioned earlier) at one point the bodylight heights as well were wrong - certainly pictures of the CKD version seem to show that, and the tooling must have been worn out for some of the issues for the detail looks muddy on some of them - all blunted corners and the like

 

This is my all-time favourite click here the HD original - all perfectly proprtioned and detailed (though entirely flush sided) - sadly let down by the bodyshell being at least 7ft short and everything spaced in the way to suit! If they had done this at the right length all those years ago, these would be as rare a hobby horses.

[mark54]

I will see how detachable the duct is, and may mount it on top of a plain Bachmann roof. What upsets me about it as modelled is that it appears you could post things through it into the interior

From the inside it looks like a separate moulding clipped and/or glued on to the roof.

[Guest Phil]

Strikes me that a set of etched window frames need to be produced, so that Bachmann Mk1s can have their original window detail removed and filled, then new apertures opened out and etches glued on. This would give the continuity of Bachmann Mk 1 shape but with scale windows.

[Bob Reid]

Not really possible Phil - Bachmann have nothing near enough to a plain bodyside that you could retain but modify that way however it is possible to pick up a Bachmann RMB (it'll give you most of the underframe components you need and a fairly plain roof) remove & discard the sides and fit any one of the brass replacement sides available..... Modelling the ducting is fairly straightforward.

 

Problem Phill is that the Bachmann guttering barely overlaps the sides. Adding even the thinnest of overlays makes it all but disappear.....!

[DavidBelcher]

I've a feeling that when Tri-ang originally introduced the Mk1 sleepers, there wasn't a raised moulding around the windows.

 

Was the tooling altered for later batches of the model under Hornby?

 

Correct. This coach and the RMB were altered to give a raised window frame, presumably to allow easier application of the silver paint for the "alloy surround" effect when re-released in blue & grey with B4 bogies and "Rail Alphabet" decals in the '70s. The BG, CK and BSK were left alone, though.

 

David

[Pennine MC]

If Russell S or Pennine reads this, I'd be grateful for anecdotal support that by 1968 approx 30% of these would have still been running in maroon.

 

 

 

Sadly, you overestimate my knowledge here, anecdotal or otherwise I do get the impression that specialised stock was repainted more quickly, and by the time I was old enough to be travelling around anywhere that they were, I'd reckon they'd be blue/grey

 

 

. The BG, CK and BSK were left alone, though.

 

I suppose we should be thankful for small mercies

['CHARD]

Sadly, you overestimate my knowledge here, anecdotal or otherwise I do get the impression that specialised stock was repainted more quickly, and by the time I was old enough to be travelling around anywhere that they were, I'd reckon they'd be blue/grey

 

Hehehe! Necessarily, pictures of the Waverley Waker are fairly scarce, the ones I have seem to feature obligatory BFYE Class 45 and Blue+Grey beds, seemingly in some late running scenario, no doubt attributable to the line's Cinderella status. By doing a pair in maroon and fettling four decent B&Gs I shall be able to run a '68 service but turn back the clock to taste... Admittedly the blue-greys seem to be far more prevalent on the second-time-around scene, and suitably scabbier to boot. So wish I'd never sold those bu99ers five years ago

[Jamie]

By doing a pair in maroon and fettling four decent B&Gs I shall be able to run a '68 service but turn back the clock to taste...

Ah go on Chard, tell me more - if not here, on one of your Waverley or model threads. I've a pair of sleepers needing a prototypical formation, if not necessarily a PPW formation.

['CHARD]

1M82 - 2156 Edinburgh - St.Pancras (M-SO)

 

BG (SX) from Hawick

BG

SK (MFSO)

2xSK

CK

SLF

SLSTP

BG

 

9/311 (MFO)

8/277 (TWThO)

8/282 (SO)

 

 

1S22 - 2115 St.Pancras - Edinburgh (M-SO)

BG

SK (MFO)

2xSK

CK

SLF

SLSTP

2xBG

 

9/309 (MFO)

8/275 (TWThSO)

 

There's the pair per train validation.

 

The real fun stuff, like vans to and from Burton-on-Trent (no guesses what they were conveying), went on in the Class 3 uber-deviancy.