Shapeways - improvements, AND problems

[rue_d_etropal]

We have all had small problems with Shapways rejecting something that has passed initial online checks, and possible problems when they actually print something. Problem has been that any items ordered are then in effect dropped, and have to be reordered.

I got a couple of emails this morning saying there was a possible problem with a couple of my designs. As far as I remember both, or certainly other designs with same 'problem' had been printed Ok in the past, but the email was more friendly jus saying action was required, so I thought it worth checking straight away. The designs had now been flagged as not being printable, so I amended one design, and uploaded it. I then noticed that in addition to the 'new item' message I get that there was another to say the item woud now be processed(ie printed), so did not need to be re-ordered. This is something I had been suggesting for a while and it now looks like SW have put something in the system to improve customer service.

As I only check email from Shapeways first thing in morning, it might sometimes take longer for me to modify a design, so do wonder how long they would wait before cancelling an order.

 

It is annoying getting an email every time I update an item, especially when it is still in design phase, not live, but if this also alows fixes to be done so customer gets their complete order, not missing items which have been rejected , then this is hopeful for the future.

As I know at least one of the 'problems', might also be in quite a few other designs I will have to go throughthose designs eventually. Trouble is most have printed OK in the past, so might wait tillI get request to fix, as it seems it won't stop an order. Given that it is mainly smaller items where my markup is not much, it is not worth my while getting upset and spending time fixing something that then turns out not to be a problem.

Edited December 1, 2018 by rue_d_etropal

[rue_d_etropal]

Unfortunately Shapeways seemto have undone some of the good they introduced. The question of thickness of sprues on designs. It seems odd that they can print a thin(1mm) connecting part of a design if it is part of that item, but if it is a sprue connecting one item to another they can't. When the sprue is same thickness as one of those items then I consider that sprue is just a continuation of that design and there is no weak point. If the sprue is made thicker it would actually add a weak point to the design.

trouble is they have just rejected this time on my modified design, and not put it on hold as they did before. This is a design I have successfully printed many times, or more precisely similar designs with exactly the same sprues. Not happy, I have replied to SW message and contacted the customer who now only has part of their order. Just waiting back to see what SW say.

Edited October 15, 2018 by rue_d_etropal

[Knuckles]

I've often had this problem multiple times and have been very out spoken about it to them. It's inconsistent nonsense.

 

I believe strongly they do it to discourage sprues so they can charge a higher handeling cost.

 

One of the most unbelievable ones was a steel coupling rod set that failed because there were connecting sprues about 1.2mm thick...in steel. The item was essentially flat but because it was recognized as a sprue boom goes the order and it is cancelled.

 

Shapeways REALLY need to wise up regarding this ongoing tripe we have to keep up with and recognise and accept...sprues...are...supposed...to...be...BROKEN!

 

It's the first thing a modeller does...cut the damn things.

Edited October 18, 2018 by Knuckles

[rue_d_etropal]

I doubt if there isn't a modeller who has not damamaged a small item when they try to remove it from a sprue in a plastic kit. I now sometimes leave certain bits off a model simply because I know those bits will break. One way the moddl companies are dealing with this i to use etched metal foe some bits.

 

I am not sure if SW are deliberately trying to disuade use of sprues, as the extra space and material used must make them more money. It is more that they don't actually understand what they are doing. If you are connecting two 1mm pieces of plastic, each might have a bit of detail, then the linking part should be no thicker than 1mm, otherwise it will add more stress tothe parts it is connected to.

I have done a few designs or window insets for old Hornby Dublo buildings. They are flat, 1mm thick. The linking parts ate no different to the actual parts of the windows, so at a glance it would not be possible to tell the differnce. I have not had any printed recently, but it would be intresting to see how SW react.

 

Reason I started this thread was that SW initially sent me a message saying there was a potential problem, allowing me tomodify design , and the order continued as if nothing had interupted the process. In one cae this was then OK, but in the other they again said there was a problem, but rejected it. I can understand there has to be a limit to times they say there is a problem, but, they still don't understand the classic ordering philosophy that when someone orders more than one item, then it is an order for more than one item, and they can't just reject part of it. It does happen with some online shops, butmany(eg Gaugemaster) will put missing item on a back order. That is better, but from my own involvement in IT when we were designing, or involved in designing ordering systems, you can give the customer the choice, as they might not want to wait, so would prefer to cancel complete order, possibly because they can get complete order elsewhere(at a higher price?). These are the questions analysts look at, and try to steer companies in the best way for customers. Many companies seem to forget that happy customers come back, unhappy ones don't.

 

In many ways the model railway market is different to other markets. Most modellers want what they have ordered, not a substitute. The way we searc the internet is also diffeent. Better to have everything we might want easy to hand(like wold be in a model shop), not intersperced with non modelling items(as would be found in say a supermarket). This was one reason I was trying to get 3D print designers to work together, or certainly work in loose groups. First stage, as I have done, is to create your own website to have your own items  displayed the way you want them. These websites could then be linked into groups, making it easier for modellers to get to wher they want.

Unfortunately he trend in website design, (eg Peco, Bachmann, Hattons), has been to try and keep everything withing their own borders, and try to do everything (in the process actually failing to do anything properly). Most parts of most websites stay static for long periods only requiring occasional updating, yet these parts are mixed up with the database/SQL designed parts, so everything is muddled. It is a simple concept, but one many companies don't understand, or have been misled by consultants who are more interested in selling more than better software. Even though Ido have toupdate my website on a regular basic(more so when I sort out what SW are doing), but I am happy to just update my static webpages.

 

Part of the problem with SW(possibly the biggest problem) is conflicting advice. They also need to sort out(ie FIX) the errors in their software. Some might be deliberate(I have worked with people who deliberately put errors in systems to forces customers down certain roads!). ne is on the e-shop page where there is an ability to put hyperlinks to other websites, but they just display code( with <url> type code markers  before and after. It might be deliberate, to try and keep everyone withing the SW boundaries, but by allowing external links, it might mean potential cusomers got the info they want, and then goback to SW (via a direct link?) and order something. That is not only better for people like us, but also SW.

 

Also, on the (odd?) occasions when the SW website goes down, you still have designer's website up and running, so people can still see what you offer, even if they can't order it. I might put that on my own website, otherwise some might think it is just a broken link on my website.

 

Trouble is, as with many companies, they are starting to believe in the stories they have invented themselves. Reading some of the comments on their forum, and I think some of their own people are starting to realise they are not getting the full story.

[Spitfire2865]

I doubt if there isn't a modeller who has not damamaged a small item when they try to remove it from a sprue in a plastic kit. I now sometimes leave certain bits off a model simply because I know those bits will break. One way the moddl companies are dealing with this i to use etched metal foe some bits.

 

I am not sure if SW are deliberately trying to disuade use of sprues, as the extra space and material used must make them more money. It is more that they don't actually understand what they are doing. If you are connecting two 1mm pieces of plastic, each might have a bit of detail, then the linking part should be no thicker than 1mm, otherwise it will add more stress tothe parts it is connected to.

I have done a few designs or window insets for old Hornby Dublo buildings. They are flat, 1mm thick. The linking parts ate no different to the actual parts of the windows, so at a glance it would not be possible to tell the differnce. I have not had any printed recently, but it would be intresting to see how SW react.

 

Reason I started this thread was that SW initially sent me a message saying there was a potential problem, allowing me tomodify design , and the order continued as if nothing had interupted the process. In one cae this was then OK, but in the other they again said there was a problem, but rejected it. I can understand there has to be a limit to times they say there is a problem, but, they still don't understand the classic ordering philosophy that when someone orders more than one item, then it is an order for more than one item, and they can't just reject part of it. It does happen with some online shops, butmany(eg Gaugemaster) will put missing item on a back order. That is better, but from my own involvement in IT when we were designing, or involved in designing ordering systems, you can give the customer the choice, as they might not want to wait, so would prefer to cancel complete order, possibly because they can get complete order elsewhere(at a higher price?). These are the questions analysts look at, and try to steer companies in the best way for customers. Many companies seem to forget that happy customers come back, unhappy ones don't.

 

In many ways the model railway market is different to other markets. Most modellers want what they have ordered, not a substitute. The way we searc the internet is also diffeent. Better to have everything we might want easy to hand(like wold be in a model shop), not intersperced with non modelling items(as would be found in say a supermarket). This was one reason I was trying to get 3D print designers to work together, or certainly work in loose groups. First stage, as I have done, is to create your own website to have your own items  displayed the way you want them. These websites could then be linked into groups, making it easier for modellers to get to wher they want.

Unfortunately he trend in website design, (eg Peco, Bachmann, Hattons), has been to try and keep everything withing their own borders, and try to do everything (in the process actually failing to do anything properly). Most parts of most websites stay static for long periods only requiring occasional updating, yet these parts are mixed up with the database/SQL designed parts, so everything is muddled. It is a simple concept, but one many companies don't understand, or have been misled by consultants who are more interested in selling more than better software. Even though Ido have toupdate my website on a regular basic(more so when I sort out what SW are doing), but I am happy to just update my static webpages.

 

Part of the problem with SW(possibly the biggest problem) is conflicting advice. They also need to sort out(ie FIX) the errors in their software. Some might be deliberate(I have worked with people who deliberately put errors in systems to forces customers down certain roads!). ne is on the e-shop page where there is an ability to put hyperlinks to other websites, but they just display code( with <url> type code markers  before and after. It might be deliberate, to try and keep everyone withing the SW boundaries, but by allowing external links, it might mean potential cusomers got the info they want, and then goback to SW (via a direct link?) and order something. That is not only better for people like us, but also SW.

 

Also, on the (odd?) occasions when the SW website goes down, you still have designer's website up and running, so people can still see what you offer, even if they can't order it. I might put that on my own website, otherwise some might think it is just a broken link on my website.

 

Trouble is, as with many companies, they are starting to believe in the stories they have invented themselves. Reading some of the comments on their forum, and I think some of their own people are starting to realise they are not getting the full story.

Just had a brass print denied on grounds of "too complex to print, too many parts"  

Its a sprued design tree and Ive printed worse before with no issue.  

"Too hard to finish", Then DONT POLISH THE DAMN THING.  

[Guy Rixon]

Just had a brass print denied on grounds of "too complex to print, too many parts"  

Its a sprued design tree and Ive printed worse before with no issue.  

"Too hard to finish", Then DONT POLISH THE DAMN THING.  

 

Did you order natural-finish brass or polished?

[Guy Rixon]

I doubt if there isn't a modeller who has not damamaged a small item when they try to remove it from a sprue in a plastic kit. I now sometimes leave certain bits off a model simply because I know those bits will break. One way the moddl companies are dealing with this i to use etched metal foe some bits.

Decent side-cutters are useful for getting small parts off sprues. I recently got some Tamiya ones and they make a big difference. Even my older cutters are better for despruing FDP parts than a knife.

[Knuckles]

Shapeways civil war, storm the offices!?

 

Obviously not, sometimes though I wonder if it is the only thing that'll get them to see sense on certain things.

 

The most frustrating part is other than pedantic whinging there is little to bugg-er all we can do about anything.

Edited October 19, 2018 by Knuckles

[Spitfire2865]

Did you order natural-finish brass or polished?

I always order the "natural finish" which always comes out polished anyway because apparently they cant read over at shapeways.

I got an email back from their CS regarding my denied print.

 

His solution, "separate the parts"

Yeah, Like Id pay $14 EACH for 11 parts.  What a joke.  

"Its more than one part" NO IT ISNT. Thats literally what a sprue is for.  

[Knuckles]

I empathize and feel for you.

 

I've been through this exact stripe too many times.

 

Get used to it is literally all I can say. Wish I had something better to say but I don't. They won't budge on the awkwardness and stupidity.

They can do great work yet they often make it hard on us to get a result.

 

This is why I said earlier I believe they are discouraging sprues to charge us more. So retarded and unrealistic.

Edited October 19, 2018 by Knuckles

[Spitfire2865]

I empathize and feel for you.

 

I've been through this exact stripe too many times.

 

Get used to it is literally all I can say. Wish I had something better to say but I don't. They won't budge on the awkwardness and stupidity.

They can do great work yet they often make it hard on us to get a result.

 

This is why I said earlier I believe they are discouraging sprues to charge us more. So retarded and unrealistic.

The strange thing, is Ive seen forum posts FROM SW staff, specifically replying to Guy Rixon, on adding MORE items to a specific sprue due to the pricing changes wiping out its viability.  

So spruing either IS or ISNT encouraged in however it will either make them more money or make them look like the good guys who arent trying to cheat you.

[CarriageShed]

It seems to me as a non-3D printer myself that the market is crying out for a small but flexible UK-based version of Shapeways.

[rue_d_etropal]

A UK production base might be useful for anyone based in the UK, but for railway modellers to get full advantage of what 3D printing services can offer, there needs to be a directory/website with links to 3D designers offering items for model railways. First step for all3D designers is to creaye their own web site, it only needs to be a page, with links to where their 3D printed items can be bought. The SW search engine is not suitable for a specialist interest group , and the Shopify project they are now linked to suggests they are looking for more geralised types of marketing. Their appoach is typical of what many companies are doing, but can't see how it really benefits SW, unless they want to concentrate on manufacture and transfer selling/delivery /payment etc to someone else.

A webpage does not need to cost anything, there are plenty of free options.I would prefer to see some pictures, but a simple list with links is enough to start with.

Edited October 21, 2018 by rue_d_etropal

[Guy Rixon]

I've been considering setting up a catalogue site for my Shapeways shop. I was thinking to get a free, hosted, Wordpress site to see what could be done with such. If I get to it (possibly over the Christmas break, when no modelling is because I'm away from all the gear), I might write it up as a recipe for others.

Edited October 21, 2018 by Guy Rixon

[BWsTrains]

I'm new to this Topic and interested as much as anything in the "emerging technology" and "business management" aspects rather than as designer or buyer.

 

That said, I see a fairly predictable "management behaviour" has emerged from SW,

• establish a business model based on attractive features and offerings that bring customers in, enabling a scale that is a barrier of sorts to others
• next phase - be the good guy, nurturing good growth for the company with good service and getting the word out there, further driving growth
• as scope for more growth becomes tougher, look where costs can be cut or margins increased, can trade on loyalty of customers / suppliers goodwill for quite some time now
• Always keep an eye out for potential competitors, when a good scale advantage has been built, your customers have little choice to put up with the reality of your reduced offering

 

These sorts of effective monopoly are bad news for customers, I used to work for a company that, sheltered behind huge import tariffs, could treat customers like $_hit and get away with it. They did for many years until tariffs were removed!

 

Same sorts of things happen with franchises, people get sucked in by attractive terms, put in some of their own "skin" and then are trapped as margins are squeezed and franchises are diluted. Nasty game - business.

 

So for those of you caught in the 3rd phase, IMO encouraging a vibrant flexible competitor is the best bet, someone who will better align with your interests. I can't see the 10,000kg gorilla in this market suddenly becoming Mr Nice Guy.

 

Colin

Edited October 21, 2018 by BWsTrains

[Guy Rixon]

"Our interests" are diverse here. Viz:

 

- I need a print service that can do ultra-fine details in resin and which takes me out of the order-and-supply loop.

 

- Simon needs a printer who can supply nylon-ish prints at lower resolution, in a way that lets him manage his huge catalogue of models easily.

 

- TurboSnail of this parish needs somebody to supply him with batches of cheap, high-quality prints wholesale, so that he can retail them to interested parties.

 

I suspect that a single, niche print-bureau in the UK would not cover all of these.

[BWsTrains]

"Our interests" are diverse here. Viz:

 

- I need a print service that can do ultra-fine details in resin and which takes me out of the order-and-supply loop.

 

- Simon needs a printer who can supply nylon-ish prints at lower resolution, in a way that lets him manage his huge catalogue of models easily.

 

- TurboSnail of this parish needs somebody to supply him with batches of cheap, high-quality prints wholesale, so that he can retail them to interested parties.

 

I suspect that a single, niche print-bureau in the UK would not cover all of these.

which only strengthens the hand of someone who can meet these diverse needs.

[Guy Rixon]

Yes, but I suspect that it would be a collection of someones, a different company for each kind of print. This is OK, but one needs to deal with orders split between different print-bureaus.

[rue_d_etropal]

I've been considering setting up a catalogue site for my Shapeways shop. I was thinking to get a free, hosted, Wordpress site to see what could be done with such. If I get to it (possibly over the Christmas break, when no modelling is because I'm away from all the gear), I might write it up as a recipe for others.

All it needs is a simle page listing your designs, some blurb and most importat, a link directly to your design, bypassing the SW front end, which seems to be putting potential customers off.

 

One big benefit for me is that I manage my designs using my website, as I can find specific designs easier  than searching on SW.

 

Many specilis societies have lists of suppliers on their websites, and apart from the dead links, they can be very usefuk. How often do you find on forums such as this, questions about where to find something, when all it needs is a simple online guide to look at.

I have someone in mind who might be able to host such a guide/list,I just need to talk to them.

[Guy Rixon]

Yes, I need those things. I also need some search-engine optimisation. One facet of the Shapeways problem is that Google doesn't consider it a place to buy things. Searching on Google for "LNWR wagon buffer" raises a picture of one of my prints (on Shapeways) but not the product-description page. Under "shopping", for that search, Google has models, some of them of LNWR subjects, but nothing on Shapeways.

 

Duck Duck Go does find my pproducts on Shapeways for that search, at least some of them. Bing has similar results.

 

Concerning lists of suppliers, do we really need a new list or just more awareness of existing lists?

[rue_d_etropal]

Yes, I need those things. I also need some search-engine optimisation. One facet of the Shapeways problem is that Google doesn't consider it a place to buy things. Searching on Google for "LNWR wagon buffer" raises a picture of one of my prints (on Shapeways) but not the product-description page. Under "shopping", for that search, Google has models, some of them of LNWR subjects, but nothing on Shapeways.

 

Duck Duck Go does find my pproducts on Shapeways for that search, at least some of them. Bing has similar results.

 

Concerning lists of suppliers, do we really need a new list or just more awareness of existing lists?

I often see my items on Google and it goes to page whenI click on it. More a nusance than a benefit, but then I don't actually think Google necessarily does us any favours so prefer to use other ways of marketing. Forget search-engine optimisation, it makes money for those who set it up, includin Google, but everyone s tryin to get to the top of the pile, so once you are there you either ge knocked off, or have to fight to stay there, and even then get knocked off. Not worth the effort.

I have been in touch with Adrian Hall(UK Model Shops website), and he is more than willing to have websites of 3D printing details. That would probably raise visual profile of most 3D print designers, but I am also asking him if it would be possible to have a purely 3D printing section. Although I don't use the website much for finding model items at the moment, I d use it for checking on exhibtions on a regular basis, and if it was a hub for 3D printing then I would use it to see what was out there.

Edited October 22, 2018 by rue_d_etropal

[rue_d_etropal]

OK, been in contact with Adrian again, and he is on board, but people do need to create websites(simple page, even a blog as long as it is not behind a password protected page). Stop grumbling, SW are doing what they are doing, and better to get promoting what we are creating than wasting time grumbling.

[Spitfire2865]

Well it looks like with Shapeways new price calculations, theyve also completely overhauled the 3D models pages AGAIN, further "simplifying" it and negating any functionality that was left.  

[rue_d_etropal]

At least you can compare prices for different materials easier. Like all changes it takes time to work out where everything is. Had a quick look arounf and could not see much changedanyway. Suits me anyway for development purposes.

As I have said, forget the e-shops and search engine for selling, and create your own website/page. If enough 3D designers then pass their website details to UKmodel shops website he will set up a separate page for us.

[Guy Rixon]

Has anybody seen the "3D tools" link for things like setting the orientation of FDP prints? It seems to have gone missing from the model-editing pages.  

 

EDIT: found on the SW forum that they're removed the link from the per-model page and added it to the list-of-models page. This seems like poor ergonomics.

 

BTW, the cheapest orientation for FDP prints still seems to be stood on end with all the support-wax issues that entails. One has to track down the 3D tools link to correct each model uploaded.

Edited October 23, 2018 by Guy Rixon