Arnos Grove

[NSE 108]

 

It's not very common that you get a model railway based on the London Underground but I have decided to have a go. The layout will be 16ft long and will run from a surface terminus at one end based on Arnos Grove tube station through a deep level tube station and into an underground terminus. All the stations will have a 1930's art deco theme and I would like to incorperat the new Bachmann 1930's station building in as one of the stations.

 

So here goes.

[mudmagnet]

Sounds like an interesting idea. I have been through Arnos Grove many times and waited on platform for tube going to required destination and whilst waiting thought that the Art Deco buildings would make a great model. What period were you planning on modelling?

[NSE 108]

I'm as yet undecided as to exactly which period.

[gordon s]

That's wonderful to hear. I used to live in the area and took the tube every day from Arnos Grove to Oakwood to go to school. This would have been from 1960-65. My mother still lives in the area so I am a fairly frequent visitor there. I'll look forward to seeing your construction.

[BaNkStOnEbRoAdWaY]

Looking forward to this

[samkiller42]

I like the sound of this, although i don't use the Tube that often, i do find it somewhat exciting and amusing.

Is it fair to assume you would use the MetroModels Tube stock?

 

Sam

[NSE 108]

yes I'm planing to us metro models and efe stock. Most probably a mix of different lines and eras.

[Accurascale Fran]

Sounds great, Arnos Grove was my local tube station for a while (swapped for East Finchley, another possibility with Bachmann's scenicraft forthcoming station buliding range) during my couple of years in Blightly. It has to be one of the most beautiful station buildings on the tube network.

[NSE 108]

Well once my upcoming house move and exams are finished (early/mid June) it will start to appear

[jamie92208]

Will it be an exhibition layout or fixed. There aren't many Underground layouts on the circuit.

 

If it's for exhibition I will watch with ninterest with my Exhibitio Manager's hat on.

 

Jamie

[NSE 108]

Unfortunately I don't have the time at the minuet to exhibit a layout due to my A levels but I intend to build it to be fully portable.

[NSE 108]

A full size (and to scale) track plan has been drawn up but due to it's size (13ft x 2ft (4 ft at the loop end)) I cant get it to fit in a photo and be visible so I've drawn a very not to scale plan on paint. This just gives an idea of the simplicity of the plan, the tube station will be lower than Arnos grove and the run between the two is about 8 to 10 ft.

[NSE 108]

sorry plan didn't attach last time.

[noiseboy72]

Interesting stuff !

 

Have a look at my layout (Links below) Mine is sub surface rather than tube, as it gives me a greater variety of stock to run.

 

Current list includes Metrovick BoBo, A60, R Stock, C68, 59TS & an LT ex GWR Pannier tank.

 

Just watch how sharp you make the curves if running EFE stock, as they will need some serious hacking around to get enough articulation. They will also need new bogies - try the Metro Models ones, as the EFE ones are just not free running enough.

 

The Radley models trains may also struggle on anything but gently curving track without at least 2 spuds per 4 cars.

 

Street Level do the whole range of trains and station buildings in card. A cheaper way of filling up the sidings with stock and also lots of London buildings.

 

I hope you have deep pockets as LT is a minority interest and consequently quite expensive.

[NSE 108]

Yes getting the stock is going to take some time. I was planing to replace the efe bogies. The curve is going to be standard 2nd & 3rd radius or 3rd & 4th as that's all I can fit in.

[L49]

Hi,

 

I always feel a bit awkward about putting anything up about Street Level on here, as I don't really want to use the forum for anything work related, but if you do want to get a good selection of stock, and do it on a tight budget, we've got Standard '27 stock, 1938, 1959/62 and 1983 stock all in stock (no pun inteded) I am working on a booklet telling people how to detail and motorise them, and you can guarantee that a spud will take as many cars as you care to hang behind it! Have a look at www.cdcdesign.co.uk, and go over to the online shop to have a better look.

 

I like the track plan and the concept. One of these days I will get around to building the Tube layout I have been trying to do for years!

[NSE 108]

I've just purchased a 1938 kit with the primary function of platform length and clearance extra but with the final intention being to put a motor in it.

[noiseboy72]

http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php/gallery/image/17915-slide9jpg/

 

This is a picture of my C69 Stock built from a Street Levels car kit. It has double glazing with the no smoking signs & a bit of an interior and will shortly have it's own rolling chassis. It is seen here on an R stock chassis as it was the right length !

 

With a bit of effort, they do make up into nice models.

[NSE 108]

I'd been looking at your photo's when I logged on earlier, looks quite good. So I take that it's possible to build the body up and then retrofit the chassis.

[Gwiwer]

I'll be watching developments from here with interest. London Underground is a favourite theme of mine though I have no immediate plans to model in that area. I am fully committed elsewhere for the next couple of years at least.

 

Your comments about using larger track radii are interesting; one of the well-known features of tube lines is the use of very tight - almost tramway radius - curves in some locations to minimise the use of space. I suspect you could use first radius pointwork and still have it look quite "easy" by tube standards. Getting the stock around it safely is another matter.

 

How do you plan to power your trains? 2-rail track power is of course not hard but I would see a respectable challenge in powering from the 3rd and 4th rails instead and therefore recreating the prototype. I am looking at how this might be done on the Bachmann CEP for 3rd rail pickup and have an EFE 1962 stock unit on hand which I could inspect for possibilities.

 

If your layout was set in the right time period you could also get away with running both 1959 and 1938 stock side by side adding a little variety to the scene.

[noiseboy72]

Regarding building the card bodies up, I make the bodies up without the card "chassis" and pin them to a piece of balsa wood to retain shape. I don't claim these to be perfect, as they will only be seen in the depot and not run on the layout.

 

I tinkered with 3rd / 4th rail pick up with some success. I used a phosphor bronze centre pick up spring on the 4th (Centre) rail with the return through the track. To prevent shorting out over crossovers, I varnished the top of the track where the pick up might touch. I abandoned the idea when I decided I wanted to run locos. They were not long enough to get 2 pick ups underneath and prevent "gapping" on some of the pointwork. I also had trouble getting the conductor rail at the right height as 1mm over height and the rail would rub on the spuds powering the tube stock.

 

3rd rail is quite possible on prototypical track work, but on anything with sharp curves, laying the rail accurately enough to prevent a scale shoe from dropping off will be very hard.

 

I think even the sharpest of London Underground curves is nowhere near 1st radius. The curves around White City are probably the worst on the system, certainly judging by the noise ! To get around 1st radius on the EFE stock, the wheels need to be almost outside of the chassis rails. There are certainly no real curves that tight in the real world.

 

My underground track work actually follows the road system above and I was surprised how wide I had to make the roads to allow it all to fit. Having actually measured the real roads I found that I had made mine about the right width. I think we often fall into the track of making our roads the same width as our trackwork when in reality they need to be much wider.

[Huw Griffiths]

How do you plan to power your trains? 2-rail track power is of course not hard but I would see a respectable challenge in powering from the 3rd and 4th rails instead and therefore recreating the prototype. I am looking at how this might be done on the Bachmann CEP for 3rd rail pickup and have an EFE 1962 stock unit on hand which I could inspect for possibilities.

My inclination would be to use standard 2 rail power - and the 3rd and 4th rail for lighting the units (probably using white LEDs, taken from cheap Christmas tree lights - and fitted to stripboard inside the roof). Apart from allowing separate powering (and control) of lights, even in DC, this would also allow use of unmodified power bogies - a definite plus, if you want to allow for easy repairs and substitution during running sessions or exhibitions.

 

 

Have you also thought about simulating the sparks, when the trains bridge gaps in the power rails?

 

When I was in my last job, one of my colleagues was involved with a LT layout using EFE 1938 stock. Apart from LEDs mounted next to / under the floor for headlights, he also used LEDs to simulate the sparks.

 

I believe he fitted magnets at strategic points under the trains - and reed switches under the track (hidden among the sleepers) - the reed switches were connected to blue LEDs (also hidden under the track), presumably together with series resistors and a 9V battery.

 

Most reed switches are only on when they're close to a magnet, facing in a suitable direction (why not try a few experiments). Most of the time, the reeds were nowhere near a magnet - so the blue LEDs didn't light and nobody knew they were even there. Every so often, a magnet (fitted under a train) would pass over - so the reed would conduct for a moment and the LED would flash. Very simple - and very effective.

 

 

As with white LEDs, the cheapest way to get blue ones is probably to split sets of LED tree lights - try looking in Aldi, Lidl, ASDA, B&Q or Wilkinson's at the end of the year. (If you're in no rush, you might be able to get them even cheaper if you wait until they sell them off at (or just after) Christmas - but this is a bit of a gamble.)

 

 

Another possibility would be to use surface mount LEDs for some or all of the lighting. You could use ready-made LED lighting strips - but they don't seem to come cheap.

 

Alternatively, you could make your own lighting boards, using surface mount LEDs. I've got no experience with these, but I know that Rapid sell them - the prices start to become very inviting if you buy a number of the things. They also do a rather nice line in cheap bulk packs of resistors. (They'd also be happy to sell you some surface mount resistors, if you want to keep lighting boards really neat.)

 

If you're interested in this sort of stuff, the February 2009 edition of Elektor Electronics included a design for LED lighting boards, in 3 different lengths - the artwork is available free from the Elektor website. Although actually designed for the Maerklin system, these boards would be easy to adapt for DCC or DC.

 

 

I'd rather not go into lots of detail right now - I'm sure you're already bored of my ramblings - but I'm currently doing some experiments with LED lighting, for a freelance On30 railcar. It'll be a while before it's finished - so no pictures - but I've got some further ideas buzzing round in my head.

 

Saying that, I've always liked London Underground stuff - so I'll be following this thread with interest.

 

 

Regards,

 

Huw.

[Huw Griffiths]

I tinkered with 3rd / 4th rail pick up with some success. I used a phosphor bronze centre pick up spring on the 4th (Centre) rail with the return through the track. To prevent shorting out over crossovers, I varnished the top of the track where the pick up might touch. I abandoned the idea when I decided I wanted to run locos. They were not long enough to get 2 pick ups underneath and prevent "gapping" on some of the pointwork. I also had trouble getting the conductor rail at the right height as 1mm over height and the rail would rub on the spuds powering the tube stock.

 

3rd rail is quite possible on prototypical track work, but on anything with sharp curves, laying the rail accurately enough to prevent a scale shoe from dropping off will be very hard.

 

I think even the sharpest of London Underground curves is nowhere near 1st radius. The curves around White City are probably the worst on the system, certainly judging by the noise ! To get around 1st radius on the EFE stock, the wheels need to be almost outside of the chassis rails. There are certainly no real curves that tight in the real world.

 

My underground track work actually follows the road system above and I was surprised how wide I had to make the roads to allow it all to fit. Having actually measured the real roads I found that I had made mine about the right width. I think we often fall into the track of making our roads the same width as our trackwork when in reality they need to be much wider.

Your observartions about 3rd and 4th rails are very interesting.

 

I don't know if there might be any value in having locos permanently coupled to wagons (fitted with pickups) to deal with "gapping" - I don't think they'd look out of place.

 

When it comes to sharp curves, I suspect there are 3 real problem areas on the Underground system - all on deep level lines:

 

• Central Line at White City - adjacent to one of the platforms - at one time, this was on a return loop.
• Northern Line at Charing Cross - ditto.
• Waterloo & City Line - just as the line from Bank enters Waterloo station.

Some people might find that roads need to be even wider if they're built above trainset track - especially 1st radius - due to the small radius of curves (and the resulting extreme overhang).

 

 

Regards,

 

Huw.

[oggy1953]

On the simulation of sparks, there was a Southern Layout some years back that had this, and the chap used the flash unit from disposable cameras. A cheap source and a friendly photo booth operator in Boots the chemist or such like would have bag fulls that had been processed. These could be worked manualy from batteries and a switch, Regards Peter

[noiseboy72]

Regarding pick ups on stock, I made a magnetic, conductive coupling using a pair of tiny rare earth magnets from a construction toy and battery contacts from a mobile phone. It did work fairly well and was no bigger than a Kadee. It really needed a mechanical lock as well, but I got dis-heartened with the whole 4th rail power idea so never developed it further. There were still problems running light engine when running round stock as my layout is a dual ballon loop.

 

I am going to use the "Welding Simulator" kits triggered from IR beams. I am going to put them just within the tunnel mouths for best effect. I think a xenon camera flash might be a bit too bright and they also have fairly high voltages albeit at low currents kicking around once uncased.