Rugby Union

[jjb1970]

England were thoroughly outplayed and South Africa were worthy winners. Well done them, and I think it is nice to see South Africa win, my own feeling was that if England weren't going to win then South Africa and Japan were the two teams I wanted to see do well (for different reasons). For England, poor showing in the final doesn't detract from the achievement in making it to the final, there is no disgrace or shame in losing in the final and it was a tremendous achievement by them to get that far, especially given their route to the final. 

[robert17649]

17 hours ago, caradoc said:

 

As a callow English youth I made the mistake in the early 80s of catching the Glasgow-Inverness overnight train the same evening Scotland had played at Hampden. I was surprised that the majority of songs from the hordes of fans aboard were not about their own team, but celebrated England's lack of success the same night ! I huddled quietly in my seat.......

 

After moving to Scotland in 1984, and having lived here since, I now have a better understanding. IMHO the majority of Scots have nothing against the English, or their sports teams, but get fed up of the arrogance shown, mainly by the media, who often treat England interchangeably with the whole of the UK. It is worst when football is involved, but other sports are included; In fact this morning my (Scots) wife, who is obviously not particularly anti-English, remarked on the overkill coverage on BBC Breakfast of the Rugby World Cup Final. I don't suppose irritations such as hijacking the UK National Anthem for England help either (surely Jerusalem should be the English National Anthem ?!)

 

Anyway, back on topic, South Africa were the better team today and are World Champions on merit. Well done to them.

 

really of interest is that the English national anthem sometime imposed on the rest of the UK is about an individual and what a jolly good thing She(interchangeable with he) iswhereas the other countries I would suggest in the world have anthems about their countries and what jolly good places they are.

 

By comparison with many the English anthem is a bit of a dirge.

 

Mind you a translation of La Marseillaise reveals filling furrows with the blod and ground up bits of our enemies'

 

good fun eh?

[Dave47549]

.

Edited October 4, 2021 by Dave47549
Removed pointless guff

[rockershovel]

42 minutes ago, Dave47549 said:

 

I learnt those at school as well. My kids* didn't, fortunately avoiding the nauseating indoctrination that goes with the territory.

 

As for GSTQ, it's utterly ghastly. Billy Connolly correctly nailed both the 'tune' & innotation back in 1985 in his 'An audience with...'.

 

* Like me, #1 can't sing. #2 has sung on stage in a musical. I therefore question your theory.

 

I wouldn’t regard Billy Connolly as an unprejudiced commentator on the subject. 

 

Schoolchildren simply don’t sing, these days (although like all generalities, specific exceptions can, and invariable are, produced). I attended assembly daily, when a hymn was sung; with varying degrees of enthusiasm and effect, but there WAS the daily exposure to singing as a group. Go to a modern funeral in particular, and you will see the outcome of the virtual abandonment of singing in schools. 

 

When my daughter married last year, I met the local minister (who tried to recruit me to the choir, but that’s another story..). He spoke at some length about conducting funerals and weddings for parishioners who were, in his words, “unchurched” and had little or no idea of the available music, and their interest in the options available. 

 

Regarding “indoctrination”, I have friends in South Wales .. several of them express concern regarding the ever-increasing promotion of Welsh Nationalism, and anti-English attitudes in schools. More than one has made the comment that they feel unable to voice such opinions within earshot of the staff, who are under considerable pressure themselves to demonstrate orthodoxy.

 

Edited November 3, 2019 by rockershovel

[Bon Accord]

6 hours ago, rockershovel said:

 

There is an obvious problem with the English team NOT singing God Save The Queen at internationals, because then no one would do it.

 

I really don't see why that would be a problem at all.

Singing when I was at school was only a feature of Easter/Harvest/Christmas church services and the odd school play/show.

I would say that you're wrong when you think the English have been bred out of anything. For the overwhelming majority of people their only real, regular exposure to singing was in church on a Sunday. Attitudes change and with the dramatic fall in church attendances/religious observation it's only to be expected. That's also something I - and I'm sure many others - have no real problem with.

[rockershovel]

Reverting to the OT, what predictions or expectations for the coming season? 

 

My best guess is that Smiling Eddie will remain at Twickenham for the foreseeable future. Conor O’Shea will step into the Jim Mallinder role, and the English squad will undergo various changes, particularly in the pack. I could see a 6N Championship in the offing, but wouldn’t predict it at this stage. 

 

Scotland will continue to suffer from lack of resources.

 

Wales, hard to say but the incoming man is from a local background, which counts for a lot down there, and Gatland has done a lot of work to leave him a good shop to come to. 

 

Ireland need restructuring and whether this will be within Andy Farrell’s abilities, time will tell. He is moving into new areas of expertise and I don’t care to predict the outcome. 

 

Good luck to Shaun Edwards in France. He seems to have taken a professional decision to back his past experience with a new Head Coach, and who can blame him? In a lot of ways he is a sort of doppelgänger to Farrell, and it’s interesting that he has been a successful Head Coach in RU, and might see things Farrell doesn’t. 

 

Italy, what of them? No one seems to be queueing for O’Shea’s job, not surprising really. O’Shea obviously used them as a steppingstone and his replacement will probably be another such. Considering the distinct risk of holding the baby as Italy produce another whitewash and quite possibly, are eased out of the tournament altogether, it’s not professionally attractive to any coach with real options. 

 

 

[Joseph_Pestell]

18 hours ago, rockershovel said:

 

Oh, it's been around for a long time

 

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-leicestershire-31147766

 

That story attributes it to 1988. But, as I said, I know England supporters who were singing it (with the accompanying gestures) when I was a student in the mid/late 1970s. And I don't think it was that new then.

[Joseph_Pestell]

13 hours ago, St Enodoc said:

I don't think England had any choice in the matter. The SA forwards got their (metaphorical) foot on England's throat from the start and never took it off. Once they had ground England down, after an hour, SA were able to change gear and outmanoeuvre the English backs to score the tries. A comprehensive demonstration of how stopping the other team getting the ball probably means you will win.

 

Yes, and as a former front-row man (all three positions but mostly 2 & 3), I rejoice in a return to proper rugby.

 

But that was rather my point. England should not have played to South Africa's strength but used the ball better to take the ball to their backs and more mobile forwards rather than kick away so much possession. Handling errors did not help, of course, and the greasy Yokohama pitch once again favoured a forward-dominated game.

 

Much has been made in today's papers of Sinckler's absence from the set pieces. I would argue that he was even more missed in open play.

 

Pictures in the Sunday Times suggest that Garces may have been conned a bit by the South Africans. But that is all part of the game to front-row players and won't be resolved while all referees seem to be recruited from the ranks of the backs.

[The Johnster]

5 hours ago, rockershovel said:

 

I wouldn’t regard Billy Connolly as an unprejudiced commentator on the subject. 

 

Schoolchildren simply don’t sing, these days (although like all generalities, specific exceptions can, and invariable are, produced). I attended assembly daily, when a hymn was sung; with varying degrees of enthusiasm and effect, but there WAS the daily exposure to singing as a group. Go to a modern funeral in particular, and you will see the outcome of the virtual abandonment of singing in schools. 

 

When my daughter married last year, I met the local minister (who tried to recruit me to the choir, but that’s another story..). He spoke at some length about conducting funerals and weddings for parishioners who were, in his words, “unchurched” and had little or no idea of the available music, and their interest in the options available. 

 

Regarding “indoctrination”, I have friends in South Wales .. several of them express concern regarding the ever-increasing promotion of Welsh Nationalism, and anti-English attitudes in schools. More than one has made the comment that they feel unable to voice such opinions within earshot of the staff, who are under considerable pressure themselves to demonstrate orthodoxy.

 

Nationalism, in it's Welsh language promotion form, is the same sort of cancerous elephant in the room of Welsh politics as sectarianism is in Ulster (and Glasgow or Liverpool).  it is terminally divisive, or perhaps tridisive or even quadradivisive.  There are Welsh speakers who do not consider themselves nationalists, monoglot English speaking Welsh people who do, Welsh speakers who consider themselves more Welsh in some way because they can speak the language (who are to be found in both the aforementioned camps), and monoglot English speakers who oppose the use of Welsh vigorously in the belief that, if the language nazis get their way, the teaching and use of Welsh will become compulsory.  Many people had extremely bad experiences of being taught Welsh in primary schools, and opted out in droves in secondary education.

 

Their are other issues conflated with this mess.  North/South animosity has survived nearly 800 years of English rule and 500 of parity with English subjects of the English monarch largely intact, and the Welsh speaking areas, largely the rural West and North, resent what they perceive as dominance from the English monoglot South East (despite the fact that there numerically are more Welsh speakers in Cardiff than the rest of the nation combined). This remarkable disparity in population density has existed since the industrial revolution.  There is a reservoir of disaffected underclass voters, some of the most deprived people in the UK, in the valleys and both the Nationalists and Far Right have targeted them.  The Far Right have had more success, because of the association of Nationalism with language.

 

For the better off in Cardiff or the Vale of Glamorgan, Welsh language medium schools are favoured for their offspring even if they speak no Welsh at home or are incomers, as such schools have a reputation for better A level performance, and this has led to a resentment from monoglot English speaking people  who are not as well off and whose children are denied such opportunity as a result, a twist on the catchment area issues found everywhere.

 

Then there are the 'Crachath', universally hated and Welsh speaking to a man/woman.  These are a cabal of middle class Welsh speakers that promote themselves within the Welsh media and art worlds, living in a posh ghetto in Pontcanna, a district of Cardiff close to the original S4C and the BBC Llandaff studios.  These are the biggest fish in the small pool that Wales is politically and culturally, and pull the strings; it is reckoned that you can't get a job as a toilet cleaner in S4C unless you are both Welsh speaking and 'in' with this Taffia.  They dominate that world completely, have huge influence on Welsh life in general, represent nobody but themselves, and are accountable to nobody.

 

Anthems, whether national/official or otherwise, become anthems because they represent an identity, perhaps national, or social, or political, or religious.  Their absence in English life and culture, which has plenty of national, social, political, and religious identities to sing about, is IMHO a sad result of firstly the hijacking of such as 'Jerusalam' and 'Land of Hope and Glory' (which to be fair does promote a somewhat empire building philosophy) by the PC brigade, and, worse, by their committed enemies the Far Right.  The Union Flag has also been appropriated by the sort of English Nationalists who are associated with the Far Right, and has thus become a poisoned chalice.  In this environment, 'Swing Low' is a pretty clever choice.

 

So it has become almost impossible to demonstrate any sort of English identity without running foul of these people and appearing to be racist or xenophobic.  But there is nothing wrong with being proud of being English and displaying your identity, it is just that there is no convenient anthem for the English to nail their colours to.  Even the BBC, respected for it's impartiality, uses 'Lillibolero', which is offensive to Irish republicans and promotes the Orange cause.  History is sticky stuff, and difficult to free one's self from.  Lillibolero's opposite number, the Garryowen (both cracking tunes by the way) is deplored by liberals and Native Americans in the US because of it's adoption by that shining light of racial tolerance and acceptance General Custer.

 

I sing 'Mae Hen Wlad' (Land of my Fathers) with pride and emotion, because I am proud of being Welsh despite my English and Irish mongrel DNA, but firmly believe that everybody should be just as proud of their heritage and culture.  We have all got skeletons in the cupboards of our histories, which we can accept, own, and progress from.  But there are, sadly, people to whom an anthem means a declaration of superiority, a 'them and us', which always seems to be misinformed and a denial of the past.  Cultural icons are prone to this as well.  I visited Tintagel some years ago, and was a bit shocked at the virulence of my reaction to it.  A sort of touristy Englishness is promoted here, but the inaccuracy of it brought out both my inner modeller (that's just not right!) and my inner cottage burner.  Arthur, if he ever lived, was an effective, probably Roman trained, Romano-British leader, i.e, a Welshman, and a Saxon's worst nightmare.  He is claimed to have killed 33 of them at the battle of Mt Badon 'himself by his own hand, and with no other'.

 

The association of Scottish nationalism with 'Braveheart' shows how easily this can happen.  A resurgence of it associated with the Mel Gibson fantasy, itself so full of inaccuracy that you'd never have exhibited it publicy if it was a layout and which managed to very effectively pervert historical fact, coincided with the adoption of Flower of Scotland, which references 'Great Edward's Army' being sent 'homewards tae think again' as a rugby anthem.  Braveheart actually refers not to Wallace, but to the Black Douglas, who intended to join the 3rd Crusade in Palestine in the previous century but was unable to because he had to deal with events at home.  He wished that his heart be buried in Jerusalem and, after his death, it was taken to Palestine by a servant.  At the Battle of Hattin, where the Crusaders were finally and decisively beaten by Saladin's army, when he saw that all was lost, he threw the heart in it's casket as far into the advancing Saracens in an attempt to get it as close to Jerusalem as he could, with the cry 'Forward, Brave Heart, as thou wert always wont'.  This sounds like legend but is historical fact testified to by eyewitnesses on both sides.  It is nothing whatsoever to do with William Wallace!

 

The English the English the English I mean the Springboks are best

I wouldn't give tuppence for all of the rest...

Edited November 3, 2019 by The Johnster

[Dave Hunt]

3 hours ago, Joseph_Pestell said:

 

That story attributes it to 1988. But, as I said, I know England supporters who were singing it (with the accompanying gestures) when I was a student in the mid/late 1970s. And I don't think it was that new then.

 

It was certainly being sung in rugby clubs and at internationals by 1967 to my knowledge.

 

Dave

[Happy Hippo]

25 minutes ago, Dave Hunt said:

 

It was certainly being sung in rugby clubs and at internationals by 1967 to my knowledge.

 

Dave

As was that other oh so PC song, 'Zulu Warrior!' (Well maybe not at international level)

 

 

[Dave Hunt]

5 minutes ago, Happy Hippo said:

As was that other oh so PC song, 'Zulu Warrior!' (Well maybe not at international level)

 

 

 

Along with The Ball of Kirriemuir (sp?), If I was the marrying kind, etc. etc. etc.  Not that I know any of the words to those songs or the actions to Sweet Chariot, of course.

[BoD]

15 minutes ago, Dave Hunt said:

 

Along with The Ball of Kirriemuir (sp?), If I was the marrying kind, etc. etc. etc.  Not that I know any of the words to those songs or the actions to Sweet Chariot, of course.

Ah, but can you them in emoticons?

[Dave Hunt]

7 minutes ago, BoD said:

Ah, but can you them in emoticons?

 

I don't know that one, how does it go? 

[rockershovel]

1 hour ago, Dave Hunt said:

 

It was certainly being sung in rugby clubs and at internationals by 1967 to my knowledge.

 

Dave

 

...it does rather appear to be an example of “research” in the increasingly common modern sense of “repeating unsubstantiated anecdote verbatim”, doesn’t it? 

 

 

[rockershovel]

1 hour ago, Happy Hippo said:

As was that other oh so PC song, 'Zulu Warrior!' (Well maybe not at international level)

 

 

 

Ai zigga Zumba... speaking of Zulu warriors, I turned up a couple of rather good facts, or possibly factoids a while ago

1) the version of Men of Harlech in the film, has amended lyrics to avoid payment of royalties

2) the Germanic tribes in the opening battle sequence of Gladiator copy the Zulu chant, complete with shield-bashing 

[rockershovel]

Long ago and far away, I did GCSE British Constitution, which still provides me with points to ponder, even at this late date. 

 

One thing it did explain, was WHY England has no “national anthem” as such. England’s political structure is archaic, compared to most European nations. It had no clearly defined concept of citizenship, or nationality until 1948. It has never been through the process of “nation building” experienced by most European nations, the USA, USSR and many other self-defined entities. 

 

Personally, I favour “Jerusalem”, for all its strange melodic structure and a range beyond the capacity of most untrained tonsils. It has always seemed to me, somehow very English; its roots in the Methodist movement of the 19th century reflecting that. 

 

Edited November 3, 2019 by rockershovel

[62613]

23 hours ago, rockershovel said:

"Jerusalem" seems to be the front runner 

 

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Proposals_for_a_national_anthem_for_England

 

I'm also reminded that the tune of "God Save The Queen" also appears in the USA as "My Country, 'Tis Of Thee" so isn't specifically British, or English for that matter 

 

Also the tune for the Luxemburg  National Anthem, IIRC

 

[rockershovel]

4 minutes ago, 62613 said:

 

Also the tune for the Luxemburg  National Anthem, IIRC

 

 

Doesn’t particularly surprise me. They can’t ALL use Beethoven’s 9th ...

 

 

Edited November 3, 2019 by rockershovel

[Torper]

13 hours ago, rockershovel said:

Personally, I favour “Jerusalem”, for all its strange melodic structure and a range beyond the capacity of most untrained tonsils. It has always seemed to me, somehow very English; its roots in the Methodist movement of the 19th century reflecting that. 

 

"Jerusalem" has a great and stirring tune and would be fine were it not for its religious content.  Should "the holy lamb of God" really be featuring in an anthem representing a country where the most recent surveys suggest that less than half the population is Christian, and even that proportion is rapidly dwindling?  I really don't think that religion has a place in the anthem of a secular country.

 

I  think that of all the countries making up the UK only Wales appears to have an official national anthem and even the UK one is apparently not official, being merely observed through custom and use.  Here in Scotland the matter has been referred to Holyrood, but no action taken, it not being considered a political priority.  I personally don't care much for Flower of Scotland which can be a bit dirgey and is insular, negative, and anti-English.  If anyone's interested, the current candidates are discussed in http://www.stamp-shop.com/songs/scottish-national-anthems.html

 

If we in Scotland do ever get an "official" anthem I think it'll be a new one specifically written as such.

 

DT

Edited November 4, 2019 by Torper
Typo

[rockershovel]

7 hours ago, Torper said:

"Jerusalem" has a great and stirring tune and would be fine were it not for its religious content.  Should "the holy lamb of God" really be featuring in an anthem representing a country where the most recent surveys suggest that less than half the poluation is Christian, and even that proportion is rapidly dwindling?  I really don't think that relgion has a place in the anthem of a secular country.

 

....

 

DT

 

“Jerusalem” is one of the great pieces of choral music. I’m simply making the point that its structure is technically challenging. In a country where public singing has been systematically eliminated from the education system since the 1960s, trying to lead a performance of something like that would be a recipe for disappointment. Most people can’t even keep time with the musically simple God Save The Queen, as can be seen at any major sporting event.

 

Orwell wrote in the 1930s that the English “were without definite religious belief, and have been so for centuries.... but retained a deep tinge of Christian feeling, whilst almost forgetting the name of Christ”. He wasn’t strictly correct in that, because the Labour Party arose from the great Methodist movements of the mid-19th Century, and retains elements of that to the present time - singing “Jerusalem” at the Party Conference being one of them. The “Jerusalem” referred to was clearly understood by trades unionists, activists for universal suffrage and WI jam-makers alike to represent an aspirational vision, not an minor Middle Eastern city https://www.royalalberthall.com/about-the-hall/news/2016/march/happy-birthday-jerusalem-englands-unofficial-national-anthem-turns-100/. The great social reforms of 1945-50 were widely referred to as the “New Jerusalem”. 

 

Hence the aphorism about “the NHS being the closest the English have, to a religion”. 

 

 

Edited November 4, 2019 by rockershovel

[St Enodoc]

15 hours ago, Happy Hippo said:

As was that other oh so PC song, 'Zulu Warrior!' (Well maybe not at international level)

 

 

 

15 hours ago, Dave Hunt said:

 

Along with The Ball of Kirriemuir (sp?), If I was the marrying kind, etc. etc. etc.  Not that I know any of the words to those songs or the actions to Sweet Chariot, of course.

They were all probably sung afterwards, in the bath, in those days - those happy days when rugby was dangerous and $ex was safe...

[tigerburnie]

Anyway talking of rugby, some decent games on the telly highlights with some skill and determination on display, all the leagues will see their respective nations internationals back and before we know it the 6 nations, probably the most important national competition of them all...……………………………..it has some history for a start.

A bit early for predictions, but I for one am expecting all the nations will want to make a bigger point than normal, Wales and Ireland at home and England in Paris for the openers, Scotland in Dublin could be an interesting crunch.

[Joseph_Pestell]

On 03/11/2019 at 21:10, rockershovel said:

Long ago and far away, I did GCSE British Constitution, which still provides me with points to ponder, even at this late date. 

 

One thing it did explain, was WHY England has no “national anthem” as such. England’s political structure is archaic, compared to most European nations. It had no clearly defined concept of citizenship, or nationality until 1948. It has never been through the process of “nation building” experienced by most European nations, the USA, USSR and many other self-defined entities. 

 

Personally, I favour “Jerusalem”, for all its strange melodic structure and a range beyond the capacity of most untrained tonsils. It has always seemed to me, somehow very English; its roots in the Methodist movement of the 19th century reflecting that. 

 

 

Those of us who studied British Constitution (not called that when I did GCE, at least not by our exam board) should be completely mystified by recent events.

 

Government ministers complain about a "zombie" parliament when the House of Commons is more active and effective than it has been for 200 years. Difficult for the Government: Yes, of course. "Zombie": No, except in the sense that it has risen from the dead.

 

And how do we have a Fixed Term Parliament Act and yet pass a Bill for an election via another route. I am surprised that Brenda of Bristol is not applying to the Supreme Court for a judgment on that.

[Joseph_Pestell]

On 03/11/2019 at 21:19, 62613 said:

 

Also the tune for the Luxemburg  National Anthem, IIRC

 

 

No, another small European country, Lichtenstein.

 

I seem to recall Luxembourg's being rather long and orchestral.