Rugby Union

[BoD]

Wow!!!

Falcons win again.

 

 

Awful game.

Do I care?

[john dew]

2 hours ago, BoD said:

Wow!!!

Falcons win again.

 

 

Awful game.

Do I care?

Drat I have that on the PVR........I am pleased for you mind ......but I normally avoid reading this thread on Weekends because of the time difference and the bizarre scheduling they have here.......but I thought I would be safe on a Friday afternoon.....got that one that one wrong.....is it still worth watching?

[BoD]

6 hours ago, john dew said:

Drat I have that on the PVR........I am pleased for you mind ......but I normally avoid reading this thread on Weekends because of the time difference and the bizarre scheduling they have here.......but I thought I would be safe on a Friday afternoon.....got that one that one wrong.....is it still worth watching?

Sorry about that. 
 

Is it worth watching?  Some bits are but not many at all. You could get away with watching the last 15 minutes or so.

[rockershovel]

Well, I’d say the score flattered Wales. England handed them a soft try through a schoolboy error - kicking after the defender was in position to charge the kick down - and missed three straightforward kicks. That’s 15 points.

 

Youngs really needs to read the memo about kicking, he consistently over-kicks by 10-15 yards. Any kick from the hand, in which the catcher calls for the mark with no one near him, or which goes dead in goal with no attacking player near it, is much too long. 

 

Solid forward play from England, including a classic “forwards try” from sheer persistence and stealing at least one Welsh line-out. Proper rugby. 

[88D]

21 hours ago, rockershovel said:

Well, I’d say the score flattered Wales. England handed them a soft try through a schoolboy error - kicking after the defender was in position to charge the kick down - and missed three straightforward kicks. That’s 15 points.

 

Youngs really needs to read the memo about kicking, he consistently over-kicks by 10-15 yards. Any kick from the hand, in which the catcher calls for the mark with no one near him, or which goes dead in goal with no attacking player near it, is much too long. 

 

Solid forward play from England, including a classic “forwards try” from sheer persistence and stealing at least one Welsh line-out. Proper rugby. 

A few points here:

England didn’t steal a line out, we now give them for free during most matches.

England should have won by more, but for some reason were  very conservative, almost defensive, in their approach.

Ben Youngs has normally kicked too long. I don’t know why he has won so many caps, as I think England have had better scrum halves than him. He does get an armchair ride from that pack, they are a real handful in all facets of play.

Having eulogised about your pack, there are some real knobheads in there. I don’t need to mention names. I wonder if there will be any citings?

Have a look again at your forwards try, I think you’ll find Launchbury in an offside position pulling Vunipola(?) over. Not sour grapes there!

A spirited effort from Wales against an England team that should/could have won by more.

[rockershovel]

3 hours ago, 88D said:

A few points here:

England didn’t steal a line out, we now give them for free during most matches.

England should have won by more, but for some reason were  very conservative, almost defensive, in their approach.

Ben Youngs has normally kicked too long. I don’t know why he has won so many caps, as I think England have had better scrum halves than him. He does get an armchair ride from that pack, they are a real handful in all facets of play.

Having eulogised about your pack, there are some real knobheads in there. I don’t need to mention names. I wonder if there will be any citings?

Have a look again at your forwards try, I think you’ll find Launchbury in an offside position pulling Vunipola(?) over. Not sour grapes there!

A spirited effort from Wales against an England team that should/could have won by more.

 

Forward play has always been a game within a game, the main reason I can’t summon much interest in the women’s game. 

 

I don’t know why Youngs is so selection-proof, either. I suppose it’s because it’s hard to name any alternative with a full set of skills at that level. 

 

 

[robert17649]

all this about internationals and premiership is all very well, my local level 7 club has not been allowed to play since March and is very likely to go out of existence fairly soon in common with many local town/village/community clubs.

 

O course the big TV fees  and government grants will keep the top tiers alive. As with association football the big boys will carry on  but their roots may wither which will cost both very dear in the future.

 

Eventually the minnows will recover but it would be really good if the government and the big boys actually did a bit to help them. I was going to say 'a bit more' but in common with many clubs the community clubs are on their own the premiership and championship will eat up the government subsidy all on their own.

[rockershovel]

9 hours ago, robert17649 said:

all this about internationals and premiership is all very well, my local level 7 club has not been allowed to play since March and is very likely to go out of existence fairly soon in common with many local town/village/community clubs.

 

O course the big TV fees  and government grants will keep the top tiers alive. As with association football the big boys will carry on  but their roots may wither which will cost both very dear in the future.

 

Eventually the minnows will recover but it would be really good if the government and the big boys actually did a bit to help them. I was going to say 'a bit more' but in common with many clubs the community clubs are on their own the premiership and championship will eat up the government subsidy all on their own.

 

Rugby clubs have often led unpredictable careers, in changing times. Rosslyn Park were top tier in amateur days but dropped to the NL with the coming of professionalism, as did Cambridge. My old school rugby team, for which I played in the early 1970s, hasn’t played for thirty years (although it has played sporadic fixtures by invitation as an “invitation” side). Peterborough once hosted three rugby clubs, of which only one survives (Peterborough) while Westwood (formerly the Baker Perkins works team and social club) have become Lions, basically a semi-professional hobby for a group of local businessmen. Bretton, originally a Development Corporation venture, have not survived the demise of that body and both their (shared) changing facilities, and even the pub they once repaired to after games, are long since demolished. 

 

The professional game has little real reason to support the amateur game. Most of its players are recruited from a small number of rugby playing schools or colleges, having played at a handful of select schools - or just imported. It is no longer interested in its traditional membership base, who (on the evidence of ticket sales) aren’t much interested in the professional club game either. The whole business of “your team” that you “follow for life” being “serious business” doesn’t get much traction among a constituency who are members  of actual clubs, and may well have played there at some time. 

[88D]

4 hours ago, rockershovel said:

 

Rugby clubs have often led unpredictable careers, in changing times. Rosslyn Park were top tier in amateur days but dropped to the NL with the coming of professionalism, as did Cambridge. My old school rugby team, for which I played in the early 1970s, hasn’t played for thirty years (although it has played sporadic fixtures by invitation as an “invitation” side). Peterborough once hosted three rugby clubs, of which only one survives (Peterborough) while Westwood (formerly the Baker Perkins works team and social club) have become Lions, basically a semi-professional hobby for a group of local businessmen. Bretton, originally a Development Corporation venture, have not survived the demise of that body and both their (shared) changing facilities, and even the pub they once repaired to after games, are long since demolished. 

 

The professional game has little real reason to support the amateur game. Most of its players are recruited from a small number of rugby playing schools or colleges, having played at a handful of select schools - or just imported. It is no longer interested in its traditional membership base, who (on the evidence of ticket sales) aren’t much interested in the professional club game either. The whole business of “your team” that you “follow for life” being “serious business” doesn’t get much traction among a constituency who are members  of actual clubs, and may well have played there at some time. 

That last paragraph certainly hits the nail on the head. If we are not careful, we could end up like American NFL with a very limited participation beyond college level. At national level, I hope Ireland and Scotland, in particular, don’t carry on with their nurturing foreign talent to reside for three years before taking the place of home-grown talent — which will start drying up if they’re not careful. At club level, Sale now have ten Saffas on their books, I believe, and that could alienate former feeder clubs. In Wales, the national game has been funded and nurtured to the detriment of club sides, not quite as much by importing players, but by providing bu...er all funds and support to the rest.

 

[rockershovel]

1 hour ago, 88D said:

That last paragraph certainly hits the nail on the head. If we are not careful, we could end up like American NFL with a very limited participation beyond college level. At national level, I hope Ireland and Scotland, in particular, don’t carry on with their nurturing foreign talent to reside for three years before taking the place of home-grown talent — which will start drying up if they’re not careful. At club level, Sale now have ten Saffas on their books, I believe, and that could alienate former feeder clubs. In Wales, the national game has been funded and nurtured to the detriment of club sides, not quite as much by importing players, but by providing bu...er all funds and support to the rest.

 

 

There is a fundamental problem, which is that once you allow the professional game to latch onto the revenue, and be run by people with little interest in the sport, that’s what happens. The RFU has a huge junior and development schéme at club level, but it produces very little result at professional level - especially considering the sheer numbers at intake level. The standard of the amateur and semi-professional game in most countries, simply isn’t good enough. The systematic abandonment of sports in schools has seen to that. 

 

Another problem is that there is a general culture of entitlement, and the notion that “you are good enough, if you can only get the right break” which is manifest on the “theatre of cruelty” shows like Pop Idol. A friend of my wife’s is a sports teacher in the Manchester area. She describes the devastation visited on the club game by professional clubs. Every year, Man U and City (but especially Man U) trial large numbers of youngsters. A few are signed, and dropped a few weeks or months later. They then conclude that they are “good enough for United” and never play at club level again. 

 

 

[tigerburnie]

Junior rugby in Leicestershire is on the up, my old club runs minis and juniors as do most clubs in the county, thriving environment that has seen yoofs progress right through to Premiership level on occasion where talented enough. Pro players from Leicester Tigers have been helping with coaching prior to covid, Harry Wells was recently at my old side for a season.

[Hal Nail]

On 01/12/2020 at 20:58, robert17649 said:

Eventually the minnows will recover but it would be really good if the government and the big boys actually did a bit to help them.

There are relatively few big boys though, there just isnt the money in rugby relative to its standing? For a sport in which England are clearly one of the best in the world and therefore have a huge number of professional standard players, there is a relatively small number that actually get paid (Richmond, for example, stayed part time when in tier 2: Contrast with football where some 5th tier sides are full time).

 

I live next to Ealings ground so have been watching for 4 or 5 years. The player turnover is staggering. A player gets signed, breaks into the starting line up half way into the 1st season, halfway through second loses place to the next bright thing and moves on again.

 

Producing players doesnt seem to be the issue in this country (albeit I totally agree that can't be taken for granted), at the moment we cant even pay enough of them to make a decent living.

Edited December 3, 2020 by Hal Nail

[Joseph_Pestell]

1 hour ago, Hal Nail said:

There are relatively few big boys though, there just isnt the money in rugby relative to its standing? For a sport in which England are clearly one of the best in the world and therefore have a huge number of professional standard players, there is a relatively small number that actually get paid (Richmond, for example, stayed part time when in tier 2: Contrast with football where some 5th tier sides are full time).

 

I live next to Ealings ground so have been watching for 4 or 5 years. The player turnover is staggering. A player gets signed, breaks into the starting line up half way into the 1st season, halfway through second loses place to the next bright thing and moves on again.

 

Producing players doesnt seem to be the issue in this country (albeit I totally agree that can't be taken for granted), at the moment we cant even pay enough of them to make a decent living.

 

To some of us, it was always obvious that professional rugby in the UK was going to be difficult to make financially viable. So far, it has only been possible due to the generosity of some sponsors who have certainly not got business benefits to match their financial input.

 

This needs real leadership with some strongly enforced rules but, as we have seen with the Saracens' fiasco, such leadership is apparently beyond the various "blazers" currently in charge.

[rockershovel]

I’ve abandoned the attempt to watch Fiji vs Georgia. The picture froze after 5 mins of the second half and I can’t recover it. That’s the third time of three something of the sort has happened ... I shan’t be troubling Amazon further, if that’s the standard they provide. 

[tigerburnie]

Painful listening to the Tigers v Exeter commentary, we won the first half, but lost the second rather badly.

[88D]

7 hours ago, rockershovel said:

I’ve abandoned the attempt to watch Fiji vs Georgia. The picture froze after 5 mins of the second half and I can’t recover it. That’s the third time of three something of the sort has happened ... I shan’t be troubling Amazon further, if that’s the standard they provide. 

Didn’t have any problems, and watched all three matches. Guess the problem was at your end.

[rockershovel]

1 hour ago, 88D said:

Didn’t have any problems, and watched all three matches. Guess the problem was at your end.

 

Interestingly enough, No 2 Son rang from Leamington during the early minutes of the game. We quickly realised that the picture he was watching was about 3 mins ahead of the one I could see... 

 

[St Enodoc]

I watched Australia v Argentina last night. Two hours of my life that I won't get back.

 

If you get the chance to see it - don't bother.

[rockershovel]

10 hours ago, 88D said:

Didn’t have any problems, and watched all three matches. Guess the problem was at your end.

 

Well, probably. One thing I learnt a long while ago in my travels, is that bandwidth is a finite resource that depends on where you are, and how many people are on the server at the time... but tv is tv, once it’s transmitted, it’s transmitted. 

[88D]

12 hours ago, rockershovel said:

 

Interestingly enough, No 2 Son rang from Leamington during the early minutes of the game. We quickly realised that the picture he was watching was about 3 mins ahead of the one I could see... 

 

Haven’t they heard of standard railway time? Flabbergasted.

[88D]

3 hours ago, rockershovel said:

 

Well, probably. One thing I learnt a long while ago in my travels, is that bandwidth is a finite resource that depends on where you are, and how many people are on the server at the time... but tv is tv, once it’s transmitted, it’s transmitted. 

Last week I watched replays, but not for long. When I wanted to move forward or back, there seemed to be no synchronisation between how many minutes you thought you had gone forward, and how many you actually did. I gave up trying to review individual events and patches.

[rockershovel]

3 hours ago, 88D said:

Last week I watched replays, but not for long. When I wanted to move forward or back, there seemed to be no synchronisation between how many minutes you thought you had gone forward, and how many you actually did. I gave up trying to review individual events and patches.

 

I do think that rugby, and the people who follow it, are a problem for the media. The blind devotion just isn’t there. Look around you at Twickenham; you will see England shirts of almost every vintage, plus a fair sprinkling of club shirts and the general rugby uniform of moleskin caps, Barbour jackets, corduroy trousers and brogues.

 

England make a serious mistake a few years ago, selling the rights to 6N home matches to Sky. What actually happened was that the BBC showed the England away matches, plus whatever other games they had rights to, sustained their viewing ratings; and England’s Sky ratings were nothing like what had been projected, which didn’t please their sponsors at all.

 

 England then followed this by the debacle of 2015. Sponsors were NOT impressed, and this was quickly conveyed to the Twickenham Powers-that-Be. Round-ball followers might blindly flock to a national team which hasn’t posed a credible threat at international level since Pontius was a pilot, but rugby, not so much.

[rockershovel]

So, what happened there, then? Didn’t watch the game, other more pressing things to do, but a couple of comments...

 

England A- XV beats what amounts to France B+ XV by a sudden death penalty. I’ve never cared for “sudden death” because of the nature of the handling codes (it’s less important in the round-ball game, because the possession and advantage changes so quickly) and this didn’t convince me.

 

Eddie Jones’ player development programme is working better than anything England have done for quite some time. His latest project, Kyle Sinckler is turning from an undisciplined liability to a serious player. Jones managed this with Hartley and Farrell, so he clearly knows something about the subject. 

 

What worries me is that this is going to become a regular fixture, presenting a conflict to the 6N at the expense of the regular Autumn Internationals, so that Amazon and Sky can fight over the broadcasting revenues. 

[88D]

31 minutes ago, rockershovel said:

So, what happened there, then? Didn’t watch the game, other more pressing things to do, but a couple of comments...

 

England A- XV beats what amounts to France B+ XV by a sudden death penalty. I’ve never cared for “sudden death” because of the nature of the handling codes (it’s less important in the round-ball game, because the possession and advantage changes so quickly) and this didn’t convince me.

 

Eddie Jones’ player development programme is working better than anything England have done for quite some time. His latest project, Kyle Sinckler is turning from an undisciplined liability to a serious player. Jones managed this with Hartley and Farrell, so he clearly knows something about the subject. 

 

What worries me is that this is going to become a regular fixture, presenting a conflict to the 6N at the expense of the regular Autumn Internationals, so that Amazon and Sky can fight over the broadcasting revenues. 

England are a bit stuck right now. They were very predictable in attack, and I think Farrell at centre makes sure that it can’t change. He’s very much like Biggar for Wales, utterly dependable, almost undroppable, but not able to give backs an attacking platform. This rigidity is ok against most teams, but not against the top teams. This was broadly England against the French u-20s from a year or so back. I would prefer to be a French supporter heading to the World Cup, they are coming along well.

[88D]

3 minutes ago, 88D said:

England are a bit stuck right now. They were very predictable in attack, and I think Farrell at centre makes sure that it can’t change. He’s very much like Biggar for Wales, utterly dependable, almost undroppable, but not able to give backs an attacking platform. This rigidity is ok against most teams, but not against the top teams. This was broadly England against the French u-20s from a year or so back. I would prefer to be a French supporter heading to the World Cup, they are coming along well.

Andrew Brace, the ref, seems to cause a fair amount of controversy in his matches: this one did not disappoint. I wouldn’t like to be reffed by him.