Rugby Union

[tigerburnie]

!970's to the very early 1980's, 2nd and third XV and the easter touring first XV to south Wales, rolling mauls were a rare sight in the earlier part, but we got fed up of getting a "shoeing" for being on the wrong side of a ruck...........................😊

Edited November 2, 2023 by tigerburnie

[Joseph_Pestell]

21 hours ago, St Enodoc said:

Do tell!

 

I played about 95% of my rugby in front row positions, mostly at 2. So my main gripe is the way that the set scrum has been devalued. I used to get a lot of ball "against the head".

 

 

[tigerburnie]

I did a spell in the front row at loosehead, but began in the backrow and migrated forwards as I got fatter and slower lol, I'm 18 stone and 6 foot 3 now, though I have shrunk an inch or so, no Cartlidge's in either knee, nor lower spine, great game rugby, keeps ya fit ya know...................................

Edited November 2, 2023 by tigerburnie

[Dave Hunt]

I went the other way - started as second row and ended up No. 8. The results are about the same as TB's - two knee replacements and waiting for a lower spine operation but as the consultant said to me, "If someone had told you in your twenties what the possible outcome in your 60s and 70s would be, would you have given it up?" 

 

60s and 70s? No such things as far as the 20 year old me was concerned.

 

Dave 

[rockershovel]

I've been very lucky with long-term effects. Assorted aches and pains but nothing requiring surgery. 

[St Enodoc]

22 hours ago, Dave Hunt said:

I went the other way - started as second row and ended up No. 8. The results are about the same as TB's - two knee replacements and waiting for a lower spine operation but as the consultant said to me, "If someone had told you in your twenties what the possible outcome in your 60s and 70s would be, would you have given it up?" 

 

60s and 70s? No such things as far as the 20 year old me was concerned.

 

Dave 

I tore an MCL when I was playing for Leeds Uni in 1977. I was referred to one specialist who told me to give up rugby, so I went to another who referred me to the Sports Injury Clinic at St James' Hospital (one of the first in the country I believe, led by Dr Ian Adams who was team doctor to Leeds United at the time). They fixed me up well enough to play for about  another 20 years (after which I refereed for another 20 years but that's another story...).

[whart57]

A story from over in the 13 man code suggests bizarre decisions on who gets to play where aren't unique to rugby union. London Broncos have against all the odds won promotion to Super League via the play-offs. They achieved this with a team that came through their academy and contained no Northerners. However they are certainties to be relegated back at the end of next year as IMG is deciding the 12 who make it into Super League are the top twelve in their grading system. London could win the Grand Final and become champions and they would still not acquire enough grading points to make the top 12 - they sit at number 24 in the provisional gradings. Nor do they get any credit for having an Academy capable of producing professional players a hundred miles or more from the RL heartlands. Isn't that "expansion"? Having a big social media presence does count apparently.

[rockershovel]

On 04/11/2023 at 15:19, whart57 said:

A story from over in the 13 man code suggests bizarre decisions on who gets to play where aren't unique to rugby union. London Broncos have against all the odds won promotion to Super League via the play-offs. They achieved this with a team that came through their academy and contained no Northerners. However they are certainties to be relegated back at the end of next year as IMG is deciding the 12 who make it into Super League are the top twelve in their grading system. London could win the Grand Final and become champions and they would still not acquire enough grading points to make the top 12 - they sit at number 24 in the provisional gradings. Nor do they get any credit for having an Academy capable of producing professional players a hundred miles or more from the RL heartlands. Isn't that "expansion"? Having a big social media presence does count apparently.

I don't see anything "bizarre" about that. IMG are an American operation which seems to be applying a tried-and-trusted formula to a fairly minor sport in a foreign country. 

 

They don't need a team in London. They want a workable formula playing to an established demographic. The mid-level management delivering this want some good ROI numbers to give them a boost towards a promotion. 

 

They don't want any financial scandals. They do want defined market penetration for their perceived demographic. 

 

Welcome to the wonderful world of US sports marketing, where sufficiently established team brands move from Oakland to Las Vegas, Indianapolis to Baltimore on a whim, new teams appear from nowhere to balance the League structure or re-use vacated branding slots *turns out they did have a market for 2 teams in Texas!* 

Edited November 5, 2023 by rockershovel

[whart57]

Well to many people it would seem bizarre to have a grading system where performance on the field counted for little. Or even nothing. As it happens London's response is positive. Knowing that there is no point trying to finish eleventh they are going to avoid the temptation of hitting the transfer market. The coach told the Guardian that the players who got them out of the Championship will all have a chance to play Super League. These days that is rare in those professional sports that have promotion and relegation, more typically half the team that won promotion stays in the division they came out from but with other clubs.

 

London is also happy to adopt IMG's franchising model, but I can't help but think what a poor fit that is for rugby league, a sport much more closely bound to their communities than nearly any other. When Sky tried a bit of franchising 25 years ago clubs turned round and said they'd rather be relegated than lose their local identities in a merger. You could say Catalans, Toulouse and London are franchises but in each case they built on something local, the French RL amateur sides with the first two and the in the third case, the various re-incarnations of Fulham RL, kept alive by a small number of very dedicated enthusiasts through some pretty dark years. Actual franchises like Paris SG and Toronto didn't last long.

[tigerburnie]

With all the distractions off the field in the game, I'm rather hoping for some decent rugby this weekend, the East Midlands derby should deliver, with hopefully a home win.

[BoD]

I see that the Premiership are trying to sell this weekend as ‘Derby Weekend’.  I’m not sure that a derby in rugby has the same ‘oomph’ as one of the traditional football derbies.  As a footballer follower too I used to get very nervous when my team played against our local ‘rivals’  although that hasn’t happened for a few seasons now, but one can always live in hope.  During the match passions were at an amazingly high level.  The atmosphere was always unbelievable.

 

Being from the northern rugby outpost I honestly don’t know  if such a passionate rivalry exists in these rugby ‘derby’ matches.  I know that the ridiculous friction that often occurs between rival football fans doesn’t happen in rugby, it’s a much more friendly experience, but does that ‘derby passion’ exist or is it something that the ‘powers that be’ are trying to push?  I’m sure some here can enlighten me.

Edited November 17, 2023 by BoD

[St Enodoc]

4 hours ago, BoD said:

I see that the Premiership are trying to sell this weekend as ‘Derby Weekend’.  I’m not sure that a derby in rugby has the same ‘oomph’ as one of the traditional football derbies.  As a footballer follower too I used to get very nervous when my team played against our local ‘rivals’  although that hasn’t happened for a few seasons now, but one can always live in hope.  During the match passions were at an amazingly high level.  The atmosphere was always unbelievable.

 

Being from the northern rugby outpost I honestly don’t know  if such a passionate rivalry exists in these rugby ‘derby’ matches.  I know that the ridiculous friction that often occurs between rival football fans doesn’t happen in rugby, it’s a much more friendly experience, but does that ‘derby passion’ exist or is it something that the ‘powers that be’ are trying to push?  I’m sure some here can enlighten me.

I think Bath - Bristol showed plenty of Derby passion.

[tigerburnie]

Leicester v Northampton is not one for the squeamish either.

[BoD]

17 hours ago, St Enodoc said:

I think Bath - Bristol showed plenty of Derby passion.

 

7 hours ago, tigerburnie said:

Leicester v Northampton is not one for the squeamish either.

Is that on field passion reflected by the supporters? Is there a ‘derby day’ atmosphere over and above that of other matches?  I’m genuinely interested in what happens elsewhere. Certainly, although it has been described as such by the media, Newcastle v Sale just isn’t a derby game.

[tigerburnie]

Rugby fans will not be singing or chanting all that much, a very different group of people tend to follow Rugby Union, but the noise at these games will be evident on the tv highlights or you can watch the whole game after tomorrow on the Premiership rugby site to get a feel for it. If you want to feel it yourself, go to Kingsholm in Gloucester and stand in the shed, you might be advised not to wear a shirt of the opposition if you are of the timid type.

Edited November 18, 2023 by tigerburnie

[tigerburnie]

Well with the Championship announcing they are against the proposed "franchise system" and many other league clubs now beginning to talk of mutiny, one wonders if this is the final nail in the Wasps, Worcester coffins. London Irish fans it seems are going in bus loads to support their amateur "Wild Geese" team and have already moved on.

[rockershovel]

I've been to Leicester v Northampton, or vice versa a couple of times. It's a well-supported fixture between two teams within easy travelling distance, with a long tradition of playing each other but it's hardly a "local derby" in the football sense. 

[tigerburnie]

The fans of rugby might be more civilised, but the clash is something both sets of fans and players revel in, always the first fixture to look for, I have heard of folk moving wedding dates so as not to clash with the games. The rivalry goes back to way before leagues were invented in the game.

[whart57]

Good article on the frustrations of the Championship clubs in the Guardian

 

https://www.theguardian.com/sport/2023/nov/24/there-isnt-a-plan-frustration-and-defiance-in-rugbys-championship

 

 

[rockershovel]

12 hours ago, whart57 said:

Good article on the frustrations of the Championship clubs in the Guardian

 

https://www.theguardian.com/sport/2023/nov/24/there-isnt-a-plan-frustration-and-defiance-in-rugbys-championship

 

 

Well, yes. At the risk of re-stating the obvious, rugby isn't football. 

 

Rugby developed a highly successful international format without developing a club format capable of supporting the professional game; one might argue that it still hasn't. 

 

Look at present coverage of the soccer Internationals. Much of it can be summarised as "let's get this nuisance over and get back to proper football" - ie the top-level club game which is the real focus of excellence in that sport. 

 

Ultimately the RFU could dispense entirely with the clubs, who act as a drain on resources (ie, revenue) to third parties. A 6-team, franchise type league would provide much better security and player development for the Test game. Whether people who don't appear to be capable of running a Cornish pasty concession should be left in charge, is a rather different question. 

 

Then we come to the Championship. Given that it makes no useful contribution to supporting the bloated flotilla of polished mahogany desks at Twickenham beyond a not-inconsiderable subscription revenue, and has no real connection with the paths into that Sancta Sanctorum, Twickenham really doesn't care about them. 

 

It's a sign of the times. Our political leaders isolate themselves from the mass-membership organisations which bear their names; local authorities spend local revenues of diversity initiatives, not emptying dustbins and filling potholes. Our national football head coach is best-known for his rather spiffy waistcoats. 

Edited November 26, 2023 by rockershovel

[tigerburnie]

You seriously think over hundred years of history and rivalry can be replaced with franchises, those things that have worked so well in Wales, the former heartland of British rugby?

Fans will never desert their teams, already coach loads of London Irish fans are following the "Wild Geese" the London Irish amateur side, do you actually believe Leicester and Gloucester fans will switch their allegiances, you are clearly mis informed or have never been to a rugby match.

[BoD]

10 hours ago, tigerburnie said:

You seriously think over hundred years of history and rivalry can be replaced with franchises, those things that have worked so well in Wales, the former heartland of British rugby?

In many ways Newcastle Falcons are a ‘franchise’.  A local team, Gosforth, taken over by a businessman, probably looking to make a quick buck.  It hasn’t worked out that well, has it?

 

I was there today, the crowds are decreasing and the atmosphere is a manufactured one.  There was more heart and soul in the handful of Exeter fans that travelled such a (relatively) long way.  Sadly, for professional Rugby in the North East, I can see Falcons being next to the wall, and because it is a manufactured club/‘franchise’  there will be very few bus loads travelling to see whatever is left.

 

[tigerburnie]

Hall made a mess of things along with Teflon Rob Andrew, they raised hopes only to dash them badly, I hope those involved have the luck to keep it going, they have the makings of a fine club, there's no lack of effort.

[whart57]

With franchises, where do the next generation of players come from? In US sport the professional franchises sit on top of a massive, well-funded, well-supported college sports structure. But even there the gap between the top college sides and the professional game is wide. Few rookies drafted at the end of their college careers make it into the pro sides as a regular in their first year. How do those who propose a franchise system for rugby propose to replace players who retire?

[tigerburnie]

I think those in the RFU only look at the next game and are incapable of looking into the distance, sadly I think was also reflected in some of the PRL clubs as well, clubs with poor crowds relying solely on the generosity of one person, that was the major contributor to Worcester's downfall, left them vulnerable to a take over by an asset stripper, how long before the RFU sell off the Twickenham ground then lease it back I wonder?